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uscav8r

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I completely agree with everything you have said in the last two threads.

1. This is not going to impact rentals in the way folks expected.
A. Resale points remain VIP
B. No limits on ARP just immediate GC's
C. Discounts still available at 60 days
D. Cancel Re-book still alive and well.
I. According to publication and owner care, IF one selects automatic upgrade the reservation would have to be exactly the same so if I am holding two 3 night or a 3 and a 4 and I cancel, it only goes away if someone has exactly that same reservation. According to owner care rep in the past more than 50% of their booking are for 7 days. For me I will just start booking split reservations so that I can have a better chance and I'll continue to book 2 units, as I always have incase the system didn't return the unit. For renters this could get expensive.

II. Also if you are booking an arp reservation at 13 months on the day and you also book a 1 br, selecting automatic upgrade. Chances are very likely that when you cancel the 3, your 1 is going to upgrade IF - IF their system works as advertised.

There are lots of things to be happy about here but killing the rental business did not happen here. I see lots of very easy adaptations. Will it cost more money YES. Did they stop it - NO. In the end Wyndham just found a way to make a lot more money and slow down what was a runaway train.

There is no guarantee you will get the 3BR. someone with a 2BR could be automatically upgraded to the 3, thus leaving you with the 2, with no possibility to upgrade further.

There is also the possibility that you were not first in line for the upgrade, and would therefore be stuck with the 1BR and no 3BR at all.

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There is no guarantee you will get the 3BR. someone with a 2BR could be automatically upgraded to the 3, thus leaving you with the 2, with no possibility to upgrade further.

There is also the possibility that you were not first in line for the upgrade, and would therefore be stuck with the 1BR and no 3BR at all.

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Of course there is no guarantee I'm not stupid, but there's no guarantee that when I cancel to do a re-book that it is going to come back to me either. The point is THERE ARE LOTS OF OPTIONS coming around as we all think this through and I will be testing them out :)
 

uscav8r

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Of course there is no guarantee I'm not stupid, but there's no guarantee that when I cancel to do a re-book that it is going to come back to me either. The point is THERE ARE LOTS OF OPTIONS coming around as we all think this through and I will be testing them out :)

Did not mean to insult anyone's intelligence. The only point to be made is that the risk has gone up for such strategies, but I concur that there is nothing in these changes that has outright prevented application of the old tricks.


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I completely agree with everything you have said in the last two threads.


D. Cancel Re-book still alive and well.
I. According to publication and owner care, IF one selects automatic upgrade the reservation would have to be exactly the same so if I am holding two 3 night or a 3 and a 4 and I cancel, it only goes away if someone has exactly that same reservation.

I am not sure this is correct. The reservation system is being changed "under the hood" with the update and I don't think the reservation has to be a complete "match" in order to upgrade. This would lend itself to potential abuse (e.g., booking an 11 night reservation so only your own smaller 11-night reservation would upgrade into it.) No, I believe the unit when released will be subject to being used in whole or in part for any eligible upgrades.

And if that leads one to think that short reservations are better because they have a higher chance to upgrade, that may be correct but also results in more guest confirmations and risks that some portions of the stay upgrade and others don't.

No doubt there will still be ways to make things work. Just going to require new strategies.
 

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Are all of the suspended accounts back in operation now?

No. If you read several of his posts you'll see am1 is still suspended. There may be others as well who are not posting.
 

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No. If you read several of his posts you'll see am1 is still suspended. There may be others as well who are not posting.

And while others of us are "thawed" and allowed to make reservations and cancellations, we cannot do credit pooling, selling of contracts nor buying new contracts, among other things. So it is a mess. And the length of time involved - 8 months - gives me no confidence at all in Wyndham's ability to IT its holdings.


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wjappraise

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And while others of us are "thawed" and allowed to make reservations and cancellations, we cannot do credit pooling, selling of contracts nor buying new contracts, among other things. So it is a mess. And the length of time involved - 8 months - gives me no confidence at all in Wyndham's ability to account for its IT changes or its holdings.


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wjappraise

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Novice guests "fall" into being buyers .... they are impressed with the condo size and options to cook verses takeout 3 meals a day... from the moment they walk into the sales office and at TOURED into a condo.

And Wyndham sales prospects are put up in hotels (for multiple years now) and tour the resort property with sales staff .. showing them the pools and sample units. And the buyers SEE the happy families (and these MUST be owners to be staying there and are told ONLY owners can stay here) and the 'sample' condo apartments. Comments about YOUR family's next vacation could be staying HERE for about the same price as a motel room. And if they RENT from Extra Holidays ... and BUY points, they are comparing the rental cost to the MFs cost ... without figuring on 10 or more years of interest & principal on the loan.

And why does Wyndham try to get the onsite guests' sales tours done within the first days of a 7 night stay owners' stay... to eat into the rescind window ... families coming home spend the first few days at home, getting caught up on those chores and chaos. Looking at paperwork, reviewing the fine print and analyzing the TRUE cost ... wow, the rescind window has closed. Or the onsite offices are generally CLOSED on WED, THU and FRI.

Just had this happen with a family I have known for ten years. They have had me line up Spring Break vacations every year and we have joined them three of the years, the others we have stayed at other resorts. They love Royal Vista, Bonnet Creek, Palm Aire, and Santa Barbara. Several times they have taken the "tour" despite my telling them they did not need to do so. The husband is intrigued by the numbers side of my ownership and is also intrigued how I have been able to get him such a nice room for such a modest price. He has stated numerous times he wants to build an ownership like I have. I have tried to reason with him that the costs associated with building a Platinum ownership simply do not make financial sense. I have also "opened my books" to him and showed him how if he buys a regular or even Silver VIP ownership, he will be paying more for the room than he reimburses me, even though he would not need a guest fee. So. . . he just bought a 231,000 point contract that has bonus points that will give him VIP for two years. He knows it will cost him more than what I can get the rooms for, but wants his own membership.

And, I think that illustrates why Wyndham doesn't really hate the fact that we rent out some units to family members and friends (or even strangers if they buy). They represent potential buyers.
 

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except that if you show him the resale market and he is gonna rescind, and buy on eBay don't you think?
 
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wjappraise

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except that if you show him the resale markethes gonna rescind, and but in eBay don't you think?

Ron - I have shown him all of that information, he is not interested in rescinding. He feels like he got the deal from Wyndham he wants. . . . which really shows me that Wyndham does want my family and friends and renters to stay at their resorts. I had not anticipated this dynamic, but it is apparent my friend feels a need to "own" rather than "rent" his timeshare product. And that pride of ownership is likely what the sales staff found in their analysis of him.
 

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I am not sure this is correct. The reservation system is being changed "under the hood" with the update and I don't think the reservation has to be a complete "match" in order to upgrade. This would lend itself to potential abuse (e.g., booking an 11 night reservation so only your own smaller 11-night reservation would upgrade into it.) No, I believe the unit when released will be subject to being used in whole or in part for any eligible upgrades.

And if that leads one to think that short reservations are better because they have a higher chance to upgrade, that may be correct but also results in more guest confirmations and risks that some portions of the stay upgrade and others don't.

No doubt there will still be ways to make things work. Just going to require new strategies.

OC I spoke with about my concerns over the points not going back to the correct years from credit pool also answered some questions for me about the new system and told me that any upgrade would have to be an exact match for the exact reason you just stated. A 7 night stay would not get an upgrade on the middle 3 nights due to a cancellation. Now if you strung 3x3 nights like we do a lot (or a 4x3) then one segment certainly could get upgraded and the other would not. I asked about this resulting in room changes and problems and she said that the system wouldn't recognize multiple reservations as a 'single stay' for upgrade purposes. So that is what led me to think that the best strategy would be the smaller segments. I am basing this on what I was told by Wyndham OC and not my speculation - they of course could be wrong too.
 

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And, I think that illustrates why Wyndham doesn't really hate the fact that we rent out some units to family members and friends (or even strangers if they buy). They represent potential buyers.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, guests are great source for potential sales for Wyndham. When I stay as a resale owner, the probability of me buying retail is zero. But if I send my cousin, friend, renter, etc. the probability of a sale is way more than zero.

Not surprisingly, non VIPs are now going to get two GCs for free so we can send twice as many friends, family, renters, etc. to the resorts so they can experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham....
 

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I think you've hit the nail on the head, guests are great source for potential sales for Wyndham. When I stay as a resale owner, the probability of me buying retail is zero. But if I send my cousin, friend, renter, etc. the probability of a sale is way more than zero.

Not surprisingly, non VIPs are now going to get two GCs for free so we can send twice as many friends, family, renters, etc. to the resorts so they can experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham....
Friends don't let friends experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham.
 

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I think you've hit the nail on the head, guests are great source for potential sales for Wyndham. When I stay as a resale owner, the probability of me buying retail is zero. But if I send my cousin, friend, renter, etc. the probability of a sale is way more than zero.

Not surprisingly, non VIPs are now going to get two GCs for free so we can send twice as many friends, family, renters, etc. to the resorts so they can experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham....


I know Voyager and the suspensions are two different things. Voyager has been in the works for years and the suspensions happened when Wyndham saw something in a few accounts that didn't look right and they had to figure out what it was and what to do about it

Neither the suspensions nor voyager was directed at renting even though that's what it looks like to us mega renters.

Based on what I learned working with Wyndham leading me to say "the parties have satisfactorily resolved their differences" and based on what I know about changes that Wyndham has already made to Worldmark; I believe that wyndhams goal is to level the playing field. They want to administer the club so that no one group has any advantage over another when making reservations

So renting is not the issue unfair advantage is. Because the almost all the mega renters have looked for and found ways to tilt the playing field in their favor it seems that renting is the target. But there are lots of regular VIPs that don't rent that use techniques like cancel and re book too

I don't see this as something done to attack renting or mega renting that hurts other owners as collateral damage rather I have come to believe that this is something that is being done to make the club better and does collateral damage to the mega renters

As you point out renting can continue just as it did after the 2009 changes

I have no doubt that some clever owners will find loopholes and exploit them and we will likely see a while new crop of owners trying to figure out how to make a living with Wyndham timeshares, and if they do it by taking unfair advantage of other owners, Wyndham will step in again, like they did in 2009 and in 2017


So Joe. that's a long way of saying I agree. Wyndham probably does like renting it makes it possible for some owners to offset some of their fees and brings sales a lot of new prospects, what's not to like? not to mention that some of the loudest complaints "I can never get a decent reservation because the megarenters have scooped up all the good stuff" will end
 

wjappraise

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some of the loudest complaints "I can never get a decent reservation because the megarenters have scooped up all the good stuff" will end

Ron - you must be into the tequila sunrises early today if you truly think owners will stop complaining about someone else (mega renters, Extra Holidays, the boogie man, Ron Parise, etc.) scooping up all the good stuff.
 

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Perhaps the complaining won't stop but Wyndham will have an answer for them
 

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OC I spoke with about my concerns over the points not going back to the correct years from credit pool also answered some questions for me about the new system and told me that any upgrade would have to be an exact match for the exact reason you just stated. A 7 night stay would not get an upgrade on the middle 3 nights due to a cancellation. Now if you strung 3x3 nights like we do a lot (or a 4x3) then one segment certainly could get upgraded and the other would not. I asked about this resulting in room changes and problems and she said that the system wouldn't recognize multiple reservations as a 'single stay' for upgrade purposes. So that is what led me to think that the best strategy would be the smaller segments. I am basing this on what I was told by Wyndham OC and not my speculation - they of course could be wrong too.

But the way I read Bigrob's post was the opposite. What if you had a 3-night reservation and someone canceled a 7-night that encompassed your dates? Won't that 3-night reservation upgrade (assuming you're next in line)? Or would that 7-night unit require a 7-night stay to upgrade into it? If the latter, that's where the 11-night example came from (and could lead to some interesting shenanigans trying to force an upgrade path, I would think). But it sounds like the new system may allow the former.
 

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Friends don't let friends experience the hard sell sales force that is Wyndham.

I totally agree, but when they dangle the carrot of $100 or whatever, even the strong sometimes given into their ploys. Plenty of threads here on TUG where even seasoned resale buyers still attend... We've sworn off presentations and wish we could get on the list to stop annoying. That's the part of Wyndham that I hate. Otherwise, I love the resorts and the product.
 

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I totally agree, but when they dangle the carrot of $100 or whatever, even the strong sometimes given into their ploys. Plenty of threads here on TUG where even seasoned resale buyers still attend... We've sworn off presentations and wish we could get on the list to stop annoying. That's the part of Wyndham that I hate. Otherwise, I love the resorts and the product.

I've taken to saying "Sorry but we are just so busy this trip that I won't even consider giving up any of the free time we do have. Next trip we won't be so busy, catch me then." That has been working well for me and gets me on my way.

The sad part is that it has been true most of the time. Most of our stays in the past couple of years have been when my husband was working in an area or with our preschool aged granddaughter who keeps us very, very busy. I'm so looking forward to my husband retiring later this year but will be sad when the granddaughter starts school this Fall and we don't have her to "play with" us. We've got two more years until the next granddaughter is old enough to have her "vacations" with Grandma and Papa.

We are staying in Orlando with her this week and our granddaughter asked about some big hotel that we drove by. She will be six right before school starts and has never stayed in a hotel room thanks to us having the timeshares. She was appalled that people spend their vacations in a bedroom! I tried explaining that sometimes it is a big bedroom and has a sofa or a small refrigerator and microwave but she still insisted "Grandma, it's a bedroom!"
 
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I've taken to saying "Sorry but we are just so busy this trip that I won't even consider giving up any of the free time we do have. Next trip we won't be so busy, catch me then." That has been working well for me and gets me on my way.

I feel sorry for the parking pass employees because they are performance based. They have goals/quotas they have to meet. But nevertheless, you paid a lot of money and pay maintenance fees monthly so they should accept your request not to be harassed and pressured into something you don't want to do. . .
 

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I've taken to saying "Sorry but we are just so busy this trip that I won't even consider giving up any of the free time we do have. Next trip we won't be so busy, catch me then." That has been working well for me and gets me on my way.

The sad part is that it has been true most of the time. Most of our stays in the past couple of years have been when my husband was working in an area or with our preschool aged granddaughter who keeps us very, very busy. I'm so looking forward to my husband retiring later this year but will be sad when the granddaughter starts school this Fall and we don't have her to "play with" us. We've got two more years until the next granddaughter is old enough to have her "vacations" with Grandma and Papa.

We are staying in Orlando with her this week and our granddaughter asked about some big hotel that we drove by. She will be six right before school starts and has never stayed in a hotel room thanks to us having the timeshares. She was appalled that people spend their vacations in a bedroom! I tried explaining that sometimes it is a big bedroom and has a sofa or a small refrigerator and microwave but she still insisted "Grandma, it's a bedroom!"
We were spending as much or more to stay in "bedrooms" until we discovered timeshares...
 

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But the way I read Bigrob's post was the opposite. What if you had a 3-night reservation and someone canceled a 7-night that encompassed your dates? Won't that 3-night reservation upgrade (assuming you're next in line)? Or would that 7-night unit require a 7-night stay to upgrade into it? If the latter, that's where the 11-night example came from (and could lead to some interesting shenanigans trying to force an upgrade path, I would think). But it sounds like the new system may allow the former.
It seems that a computer algorithms would determine that. How ever it is set up it will, in my opinion, first to exact matches 7 for 7 first, it is over 50% of the searches, according to a previous post. Next perfect match, (attempted humor) monies spent on ownership.

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Couple of questions regarding the changes for the individuals who did or do a lot of renting.
1. Will it change where you own ? I'm sure most of your purchases where low MFs.
2.Will you now buy where you rent for ARP ?Make ARP reservations to be first in line for upgrades.
3. Still try to create your upgrade?
4. Seems from some post that some did a lot of buying and selling. What was reason behind so much turnover of contracts?
5. What change will have the biggest effect on your bottom line?
 

wjappraise

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Couple of questions regarding the changes for the individuals who did or do a lot of renting.
1. Will it change where you own ? I'm sure most of your purchases where low MFs.
2.Will you now buy where you rent for ARP ?Make ARP reservations to be first in line for upgrades.
3. Still try to create your upgrade?
4. Seems from some post that some did a lot of buying and selling. What was reason behind so much turnover of contracts?
5. What change will have the biggest effect on your bottom line?

I have not done a lot of "renting" but I do use all of my GCs every year by March and purchase a bunch through the year. My guests are almost entirely made up of family members and friends, and I use TUG or Redweek to advertise a handful a rooms each year, mostly to move reservations that my known guests can no longer use. So, here is my attempt to answer your questions:

1. I own where I want to stay, or where my guests want to stay. Bonnet Creek, Glacier Canyon, Royal Vista, Panama City. Most of those are NOT low MFs. I may look to rid myself of the Royal Vista contracts, due to the Front Desk at Royal Vista no longer honoring the "do not move" label placed on rooms. I used my ARP and reserved 13 months out so as to hold the ocean front rooms I love. It does not make sense for me to pay the premium to have RV contracts when the value is to get specific rooms, but the manager gives those rooms away and places me or my guests in rooms overlooking the street. I spoke with him directly and he feels that it is his right to determine who gets those rooms, not an owner, and not the Wyndham VCs.
2. Yes, but not counting on the upgrades. And will likely get rid of some of my contracts. If Royal Vista can get away with ignoring ARP "do not move" stipulation, won't other resorts follow their lead and change my ARP units?
3. Too soon to tell. Perhaps the business model will change to making reservations at 60 days, getting the best room available at that time.
4. It seems that was for using Credit Pooling to strip and use all of the points from the contract for the next two to three years, then sell the stripped contracts to whomever was buying, including Wyndham. I did not do that, but I did sell some contracts that I no longer wanted, mostly due to how I felt when I visited the resorts. I know a lot of people love Ocean Walk, but when I stayed there I did not like the attitude of the staff. I lived in Brooklyn for 7 years, and it was like visiting NYC again with no one really interested in customer service. It is hard to believe that only 60 miles separates Ocean Walk from Bonnet Creek, where the staff has a fantastic attitude and goes out of their way to make the guests comfortable. So, I sold all my Ocean Walk contracts. Love the beach, hate the attitude.
5. Having to place GCs on rooms 13 or 14 months prior to check in, even if I used ARP. My biggest trip each year is a reunion at Bonnet Creek over Thanksgiving. I use all of Presidential Reserve points, and all of my ARP for Bonnet Creek regular contracts to get the rooms we need. The ten unit limit placed a large difficulty for me as I basically purchased more and more over the years to get this event. Wyndham, and Fairfield before the name change, advertised the lure of having family reunions as a reason to buy more and more points, and I bought in. So, I paid retail for a lot of contracts, and then Wyndham pulled the rug out from under me. So, now I have to use ARP to reserve the rooms (I was not able to do so for 2017 Thanksgiving due to the Great Suspension of 2016, which irritates me beyond belief, so half of my reunion party will be staying at Reunion). Now this wrinkle.

It appears that Wyndham corporate simply does not want me to enjoy owning what they willing sold to me. Maybe they should buy me out.
 

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Couple of questions regarding the changes for the individuals who did or do a lot of renting.
1. Will it change where you own ? I'm sure most of your purchases where low MFs.
2.Will you now buy where you rent for ARP ?Make ARP reservations to be first in line for upgrades.
3. Still try to create your upgrade?
4. Seems from some post that some did a lot of buying and selling. What was reason behind so much turnover of contracts?
5. What change will have the biggest effect on your bottom line?

1) Im not going to own directly.. Im going to help other owners manage what they own.. I dont see any need to change where they own...Points are points and the few dollars they might save on fees wont come close to making up for the big bucks lost by losing the cancel/rebook/upgrade thing

2) Ive always recommended specialization to wanna be renters so Ill be recommending that to the folks I work with. So the guy I sold my madi gras list to will be looking for La belleMaison and CWA contracts

3) I might advise checking the check box for upgrades but I wouldnt count on getting one

4)regarding buying and selling... I did a whole lot more buying than selling but I only when I could see a profit.

5) The biggest change for me is the end of the credit pool..
 
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