TUG MEMBERS: Joining TUG does not automatically register you as a user of the TUG Bulletin Board. You must register yourself.


*ads are disabled when logged in*
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 24 years!

    Join tens of thousands of other owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered!
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free! Join tens of thousands of other owners who get this every week! Latest resort reviews and the most important topics discussed by owners during the week!
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Follow the TUG Member Banner as it travels the world on vacation with Timeshare owners! Also sign up to get the banner sent to you so you can submit a photo of your vacation with the banner to share with TUG! Banner Thread
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Note that the "About the rest of TUG" and "About TUGBBS" forums have been moved further down the list under the lounge area. just in case anyone was wondering where they disappeared to!
    Dismiss Notice
  6. A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!
    Dismiss Notice
  7. TUG started 24 years ago this month in 1993 as a group of owners on prodigy! Check out our happy birthday post here: Happy Birthday TUG!
    Dismiss Notice
  8. The TUG forums have been upgraded this evening to now utilize https as a more secure way to connect and browse the site (Especially for those logged in). please let us know if you experience any issues or errors while on the site so we can correct them! it is our hope that this is a completely seamless change/upgrade! Forum upgrade thread
    Dismiss Notice

Account review email [Accts. suspended]

Discussion in 'Wyndham Vacation Resorts' started by bobdaz, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I understand how CWA works and although the resorts aren't owned directly the points are symbolic of ownership, just as UDI points are symbolic of ownership

    Buy for this discussion it's a "who cares" It made no difference to Wyndham whether the "extra" points were CWA points or UDI points or points from converted weeks. What they saw was way too many points in the suspended accounts.

    FYI I don't think any of us had any help from anyone in the inside. I know I didn't. The Wyndham employees charged with figuring out just how I "manufactured" points jumped to the same conclusion. They didn't understand that it was a failure of their own systems both computer systems and human systems. The way I put it is that the right hand dosent know what the left hand is doing
     
  2. Avislo

    Avislo Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    With Wyndham, the right hand never did meet the left hand let alone know what each other do.

    Thank you for correcting my terminology, I did not know these points were referred to as "Manufactured" Points.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  3. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thats one of the terms I have used, you can call them whatever you want. , Ive also referred to them as "extra" points. Some have said that they are "stolen" points. But what they really are, are my points, bought and paid for. (At least thats my story and Im sticking to it)

    All thats important at this point is that wyndham is, on behalf of Club Wyndham Plus (the fairshare trust) taking them back
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  4. Avislo

    Avislo Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Care to explain what the failure of the human systems is?

    I do not know of anyone that follows what the top people of the Fairfield Trust et. al. are doing. What impact of Frantz Hanning departure will have on the computer and human systems failures? According to at least one earlier report he was going to stay in Wyndham through March in a different capacity than he had held for awhile.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  5. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Im trying to say people made mistakes. Or made decisions without considering all the available facts or consulting their colleagues. I probably should have called it a failure of management systems instead of what I did

    What I'm talking about is the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. Others with more managerial experience than me, used the word "silos"


    For example: wjappraise has posted here that he saw extra points in his account, and that he notified someone at Wyndham. The response that he got was that there was no problem. There was a computer problem but that no one at Wyndham could see it, or admit to it, was a "people problem"

    Another example. We all knew that there was a problem with credit pooling. There came a time when what used to be a 5 minute phone call would take hours on the phone. The problem was a computer problem. But that the owner care staff that were in the middle of it, didnt get management people interested, was a "people problem"

    I found it shocking that in my first meeting with Wyndham, after my accounts were suspended, they asked me how I did it. I thought it was a trap to get me to tell them which if their employees I had paid off to give me "extra" points. Their assumption was the same one you made somewhere upthread and that was I must be working with someone on the inside. They were looking for names. When I told them how I did what I did, they were genuinely confused. They didn't get it. I had to educate them on how their own system worked and how I used it.

    Here's a short story that will tell you just how little they knew about their own club. One of my interrogators asked me if I ever used a technique known as "cancel and rebook" to capture discounts. My answer was "yes, this rental thing that I do dosent work without it. That's were the profits are". He followed that question with another, asking me if I was VIP. That took me aback and I asked him if that was a serious question. When he said yes it was, I exploded. "0f course I'm a VIP owner, you know that, you just asked me about discounts. VIP owners are the only owners that get discounts. You either don't know your own system or you are playing the lawyers trick of asking the same question over and over trying to catch me in a lie". I went on to say that I understood that they had a problem and that I drove the three hours to meet with them to open my books and show them exactly how I did what I did, with the expectation that we were going to work toward a solution of their problem. I asked that they get someone in the room that knew what they were talking about and that would treat me with a little respect.

    That was a people problem and once they got the right people involved we moved forward to a resolution


    It's easy to blame all this on computers but it goes deeper to what i called the "human systems". As I said above I should have said management systems
     
  6. Avislo

    Avislo Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Thanks for the information.
     
  7. wjappraise

    wjappraise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Michigan
    Don't forget - computer problems are human problems. It appears Wyndham has not sufficiently invested in its IT department, especially its beta testing. In my opinion that's their biggest problem, rivaled only by their arrogance.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    frankf3 likes this.
  8. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113

    agree completely
     
  9. Avislo

    Avislo Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Agree.
     
  10. Sandy VDH

    Sandy VDH TUG Review Crew: Expert TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I understood exactly what you were getting at Ron.

    They have computer issues, as they are programed but are NOT bug free.
    They have people issues, as they are human and make mistakes, both typos and of understanding.
    They have management issues, making assumptions about things, and think they know what is going on.
    The have arrogance issues, they think they are always right.

    All that converges into what is the problem. It is not a single item, but rather a combination of all of them.
     
  11. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thanks for the feedback. The older I get the more I ramble. It's nice to know that I made at least a little sense
     
  12. Bigrob

    Bigrob TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    125
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Centreville, VA
    Other than Ron, are there any others who have had their situation fully resolved?
     
  13. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Actually there are some loose ends I'm still working on

    And there was someone else that posted here that they were done

    My best guess is that they can't wrap things up until after voyager is rolled out
     
  14. wjappraise

    wjappraise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Michigan
    Nothing is resolved for me. And I have not heard of anyone except Ron and Jedinprescott who are resolved.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. happyhopian

    happyhopian Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2013
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ron I have to admit this is breathtaking. Either they didn't take you seriously or they don't have the foggiest idea how to process information. Did they think they wree the FBI? In the end, the worst they can do it take your account, and charge you no more fees and even then they are likely to end of with damager If someone owned enough points to make the lawyer option worthwhile.

    That having been said, what was his response? Did he poke back or did he jump up to get someone? How long into these meetings did you finally meet someone who said AH-HA? Finally, the question about cancel-rebook.I'm curious did they think it was that simple or did they think that there is some problem with people doing cancel - rebook? I'm not sure I understood that comment.
     
    Bigrob likes this.
  16. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Regarding cancel and rebook, I'm sure they knew that some of used that technique to make money. But I'm not sure they knew that it didn't generate points. They did know that when I was done because I told them exactly how it worked, or more to the point, how I used it and I told them how I was able to generate "extra" points

    From my perspective we closed that meeting having accomplished nothing except perhaps that I knew more than they did. I had one more phone call with those guys that went nowhere

    The suspension was August 23. It took about 2 weeks of spinning our wheels before I got a call from someone that did know what they were doing, treated me with respect and accepted the fact that I wanted to work things out; not fight
    They did know I was talking to lawyers some of whom they knew from past dealings and they knew I had enough points that it would be worthwhile to hire one if I had to. We each had our ah-ha moment and ultimately we "satisfactorily resolved our differences" because ultimately we both wanted the same thing

    Although I don't know for sure, I think they used our "satisfactory resolution" as a template for the work they are doing with other suspendees,

    I don't harbor and anger toward Wyndham or any of the people I worked with. I don't think they had any idea that what I was doing could be done within the rules, or that I wasn't the only one doing it. (And no im not going to tell you what it was,)and I understand that they couldn't allow it to continue.
     
  17. am1

    am1 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2009
    Messages:
    4,637
    Likes Received:
    115
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I am still waiting for contact since November. I thought we were getting somewhere but then nothing. I do know I have hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages.
     
  18. John or Jane Doe

    John or Jane Doe Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Nothing has been resolved for me, either. There was a time when phone calls or emails were returned, but it's been a long time (November for me, too). Requests for callbacks or additional information since November have been ignored.

    I don't have any problems using my account. But I have never been "cleared", either. That means, as far as I know, that I still have restrictions (can't pay maintenance with points and can't sell any contracts). Ha - maybe I should try - maybe I can do it and they just forgot to tell me?

    I am fairly certain that the reason our account was suspended was for rolling points. Those accumulated points have now been used, given away for free or at deep discounts, or have expired. For me it feels like any opportunity for recovery (on Wyndham's part) has expired. Perhaps that is me trying to be logical, but it feels like this should be over. I did the best I could to manage things not knowing what Wyndham was/is going to do.

    My account has had it's use years aligned (I was not aligned in the original effort years ago - I believe because I had a contract they didn't know what to do with therefore they did nothing). I was aligned in November - with no prorating/compensation for moving my use years forward. By my accounting I lost about 1M points in the process. Whey I called, they requested an audit be done. This resulted with them saying there aren't any missing points - but they cannot explain where I was ever given 2018 points (because I wasn't). Truly, they really still don't "get it" (and that is pretty scary). I was given a copy of the audit and all it was was about and inch thick of pages of transaction history. There are no points balance, no indication of what use year the points are from or if they are regular or credit pooled points (4 columns - activity date, travel date, activity description, points used/issued. And no explanation. If that's all the auditors have to work with it's no wonder they can't get anything straight.

    I just noticed, the cover letter states:
    The amount of points remaining on your account is xxxx and may be used for:
    - Booking reservations with Club Wyndham Plus
    - Depositing into your external exchange company, RCI, until the end of your use year.

    I guess that means the restrictions are still in place. It really is unbelievable that after all this time nothing seems to have changed - including continued issues with the credit pooled points. Quite comically, I've purchased a few new contracts with different use years and they were not aligned. Truly unbelievable that nothing has changed.
     
  19. wjappraise

    wjappraise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ron - Why would voyager rollout be required to reconcile accounts that have been either fully or semi suspended for going on 8 months now? Aren't they separate events? My suspension is due to a bloated points account due to IT issues that Wyndham has had plenty of time to identify and resolve. If their incompetence is so pervasive then they should be reaching out to the impacted owners, especially those of us who are willing to post on this forum our experiences. My last reach out communication from Wyndham was in October. That's almost six months ago. That is inexcusable!!!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  20. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113

    You and others have reported that the computer glitches that resulted in so many points being generated, still glitch. So it seems to me that part of the resolution from Wydhams perspective is to fix the computer so it cant happen again> and I think they are banking on Voyager to do that

    Im nit trying to excuse wyndham for the lack of communication, only offering a possible explanation for the delay
     
  21. tschwa2

    tschwa2 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    9,108
    Likes Received:
    342
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Maryland
    Resorts Owned:
    A few in SC, VA and FL, a single resort in NC, MD, PA, NY, UT, ME, WI, and TN plus Jamaica and the Bahamas
    Most of the recent posts about current problems seem to be points returning to the wrong pools and maybe the wrong number of points being returned (that I interpreted as not enough being returned- not extra).
     
  22. John or Jane Doe

    John or Jane Doe Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2016
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    My experience has been:
    * Credit pooled points not returning to the correct pool (sometimes as regular vs. credit pooled). The amount was correct, the use year bucket was not (I've seen this in the past month). These errors tend to favor Wyndham (not tend to, always have in my experience).
    * What I perceive as missing points (Wyndham does not agree) due to the manual and inconsistent process of realigning use years (although IMO it seems fraudulent to me for them to move use years forward and not compensate the owner in any way. If my points had an April 1 - March 31 use year, and they get moved forward to a Jan 1 - Dec 31 use year, then I pay maintenance for 9 months of points that I never receive. If Wyndham is doing that (albeit inconsistent) that seems borderline fraudulent to me.

    Given the things we are able to see are not fixed - it's hard to imagine that anything else (some of the other system issues) have been fixed either.

    Note that rolling points forward was "fixed" by eliminating cancelled points and while stripping contracts may still continue, Wyndham (Ovations) is likely not taking back stripped contracts.
     
  23. wjappraise

    wjappraise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Michigan
    Thanks Ron.

    I would hope they have fixed the glitch. It's quite incredible that Wyndham has chosen to blame and vilify its owners for limitations of its IT program. Maybe an apology from them would help us.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. TeleiosMan

    TeleiosMan Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    1
    It is my belief that there is likely some punitive motive at play as well. There are owners who knew, or should have known, that the system was allowing them to make many more reservations than their truly correct point allotment should allow for. Some owners were locked due to inadequate understanding of legitimate scenarios, but others may have been locked, and may continue to be locked, because of 'illegitimate' scenarios. Like going to the ATM and withdrawing $500 from an account with $2,000 in the account, but having the ability to do this hundreds of times. In that scenario, the Bank believes that the customer knew, or should have known, that his account was not being properly credited and was taking advantage of a glitch. There may only be a tiny minority of individuals who fall into this bucket, but those locked for illegitimate scenarios should not be holding their breath for an apology from Wyndham.
     
    Avislo and raygo123 like this.
  25. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,795
    Likes Received:
    1,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't think any of us can look forward to apologies. I used to think that how we are treated had to do with whether we "knowingly" took advantage of a glitch or not. I've now come to the opinion that knowing or not knowing dosent make a difference. Neither does it matter whether it was a Wyndham error or not. I really think all they want is to get their points back.

    Having said that, I don't understand why it's taking so long. It seems as if they can only deal with a few cases at a time and of course, delayed resolution, one could argue, is punishment

    How we are treated (with respect or not) seems to have more to do with how we treat them. Respect seems to get respect and cooperation gets cooperation.

    I don't think "punishment" enters into their thinking at all except perhaps in one case. And probably not even there

    Just my opinion (but based on my experience)
     

Share This Page