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About To Lose My Job

bogey21

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Not all companies are like many of the ones discussed here. When I was about to retire I sat down with my replacement and told him I knew he would want to replace my long term "loyalists". He agreed that was where he would be heading. I was able to convince him to offer an Early Retirement Window;i.e. enhanced pensions for leaving early to the "class" that included 11 such people. All 11 took it and walked away with a nice Retirement Party and more money. What my replacement got out of it was not having the "blow back" that would result from getting rid of these employees one at a time. He also made a good impression on the remaining employees who felt like their company treats employees fairly. Everybody won - Me, my successor, the employees who left early and those who remained. All it took was some ingenuity and a little money...

George
 

DaveNV

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Not all companies are like many of the ones discussed here.

George

You had a rare experience. I work for a very busy hospital system. They want tremendous performance, and won't tolerate anything less than the best. I'm all for being the best you can be, but when someone leaves, whether it's voluntarily or via termination, it's almost like a rush to scrub their memory from the ashes. Nobody is celebrated or missed - they're just... replaced. It's pretty heartless.

I've worked there through thick and thin for more than 10 years. My current plans are to retire next Summer, and I am really looking forward to not being there any more. I won't regret my time there, but I'm very ready for the next chapter of my life. :)

Dave
 

geist1223

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The Company from which I retired would always throw a lunch time celebration on your last day. Your choice was the whole company invited (be in the lunch room) or smaller just your Division (in a Conference Room). The employees choice. I chose the smaller option. But my last day of work was going to be a Monday - last day of the year. But the Friday night before my last day Patti and I threw a Retirement Party at our house. Less than a mile from my work place. I handed out invitations to all 700 - 800 employees from the CEO on down. We provided all the food and drinks. We probably had 300 spend some time at the party with maybe 60 to 70 at any one time. Three Vice-Presidents in put in an appearance. Knowing my taste for Good Liquor they each brought a bottle of good stuff.

I do have to admit that my last couple years if I did not get away for at least 2 weeks every 6 months I would probably have strangled someone. It was not the company or the work. I was ready to be done working. I had worked pretty steady since I was 13.
 

WinniWoman

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We get nothing unless the other employees themselves make food and bake a cake and bring it in. Another tech (Cat Scan) just left yesterday. Said she had had enough. Doesn't even have another job to go to or health insurance.

We come in with nothing and we leave with nothing. Pathetic. Really pathetic. My hard working and dedicated mom used to tell me not to stress work. "They won't even remember your name," she used to say. I never forgot that.
 
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lockewong

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I understand. But- I fear they will then not pay me my vacation days and I don't want that to happen. I don't underestimate them. Really I could use the money until I can redo our household budget and see where we stand. We have to stop IRA contributions, cut my husband's 401k contribution to the minimum just to get the employer match, stop all other savings, and cut out some other things, so a bit more cash flow will help.

It is not really a training I am going to do. More like just an orientation I believe. He said in his letter he wants me to introduce her to a few of our main clients. And an update of things I was working on for her to take over.

I have already started to tell some of our main clients what has occurred so they now the truth of what went on. That is what I am working on until I go on vacation. LOL!

Again- who knows with this guy? He might let me go before then anyway. He did say the clinical director was going to work with me during the transition. I have no clue what it all means.

Today I deleted a lot of stuff from my computer and all my emails, except a few. Lots of stuff went into the shredder- my notes and things. I got an email from the COO thanking me for the letter and saying she was sorry to hear I was leaving and it was good to meet me. yeah- right. I'm not responding.

Dear Mary Ann:

I am very very sorry to hear about this. Remember before you go on vacation to download all contacts you may want to keep, including clients, on a flash drive that is secure to bring home. Delete everything as you have already started to do. Take the time for whatever you need to nourish your spirit and your soul. Go back to Vermont for the Fall leaves. Drive Brandon Gap and just sit and soak in what you want. Finally, as to the "successor" do whatever you feel like you need to do. Your instincts have been spot-on. Who knows, karma make work out for you....in a similar situation, management found that removing the people with institutional knowledge and experience and replacing them means stress and uncertainty for the replacements. I have seen these younger replacements realize that they are over their heads and stress made them leave faster that the company expected. Leaving a knowledge and experience vacuum forcing management to search unexpectedly for the people with experience that they pushed out the door.
 

lockewong

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Lots of people who left here over the years never got one. And let me tell you- LOTS of people have left during the time I have been here.
BE careful of the what you put in the "Exit Interview." They may just want to document that there is no age-discrimination lawsuit coming. If you neglect to say something, you are foreclosed, possibly. If you say too much, they may try to avoid giving a reference if you choose to request one in the future.
 

Jan M.

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BE careful of the what you put in the "Exit Interview." They may just want to document that there is no age-discrimination lawsuit coming. If you neglect to say something, you are foreclosed, possibly. If you say too much, they may try to avoid giving a reference if you choose to request one in the future.

My husband and I were talking about MaryAnn's situation and agreed that she and the other employees who left for the same reasons should find a lawyer to file a lawsuit. Even if they don't walk away with much of anything out of the lawsuit just standing up and being part of setting legal precedents that would discourage other companies from doing stuff like this in the future would be well worth it.
 

VacationForever

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My husband and I were talking about MaryAnn's situation and agreed that she and the other employees who left for the same reasons should find a lawyer to file a lawsuit. Even if they don't walk away with much of anything out of the lawsuit just standing up and being part of setting legal precedents that would discourage other companies from doing stuff like this in the future would be well worth it.
The issue is on what basis? Bad manager? Won't stand up in court.
 

Jan M.

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The issue is on what basis? Bad manager? Won't stand up in court.

Have you read all of her posts? For one there was an ongoing campaign of harassment of her and other employees.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Of course I have read the entire thread. What I see is a really bad manager.
And one should keep in mind that we are getting only one side of the story.
 

WinniWoman

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I am thinking of not sending in the Exit Interview form until after I have received all my pay, so it will be a few weeks after my last day.

First thing is- my coworkers do not seem interested in taking legal action (heck- they never even spoke up to HR- reminds me of the "ME TOO" women that only spoke up about sexual harassment like 30 years later)) and they just want to move on and I can't say I blame them. I have done a lot of research on this- not because I would want to sue, but because I would want to collect unemployment. I thought perhaps if I used the age discrimination and constructive discharge wording in my exit interview form that might help me to collect. I was going to send it in on my last day of employment. But then I thought about my final pay- one week of which involves me being paid PTO days that I have earned. I don't want to jeopardize those. But I would have to file for unemployment the first week unemployed, so it's a catch 22.

But it seems that proving age discrimination for one thing is extremely hard because companies can claim to downsize older workers because of pay and not necessarily because of age, even though they can many times go hand in hand. It's a very long process and could take years even if I had lots of proof and coworkers willing to fight.

So- in my case, I was not let go- I resigned. That will not work in my favor and I knew this when I resigned.

Trying to prove harassment is also difficult. In an "at will" employer state, your boss can be a big jerk, the company can be despicable, but unless he actually does something illegal, it will not be considered harassment. So- he can give you all kinds of grunt work, ignore you, talk down to you, write you up for trivial things, etc. But unless he actually does something illegal- like telling you to your face that you are an old bat, or neglecting to provide safety equipment, stuff like that, you will not win.
 
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WinniWoman

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And one should keep in mind that we are getting only one side of the story.

Absolutely right. But there would be no story on the other side because never have I been brought in and accused of underperforming or had a bad attitude or had a client complaint. So what exactly would be their side to the story other than they want a younger, cheaper employee?
 
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WinniWoman

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BE careful of the what you put in the "Exit Interview." They may just want to document that there is no age-discrimination lawsuit coming. If you neglect to say something, you are foreclosed, possibly. If you say too much, they may try to avoid giving a reference if you choose to request one in the future.

Yes. I know. Companies only do these exit interviews because of fear of lawsuits or for unemployment claims. If they were really interested in what you had to say, they would ask you while you were still employed- wouldn't they?

I have already filled in the form and will adjust it if I feel I need to when the time comes to send it in. Or maybe I won't send it in at all, but I am thinking I will because I need to do so for closure.

I don't care about a reference from them. I have not been employed by them for long- just 8 months (8 months too long). Remember- this company just took over this year. I can easily get a reference from my old boss and the doctors and even some of my coworkers and clients. In fact- that is what the others who left have done. No one would dare ask idiot boy for a reference. And I am sure he would not write one. He will only verify dates to avoid legal issues.

Not that I care because I will not be working- but, ok. I could change my mind out of desperation at some point.
 
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WinniWoman

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Dear Mary Ann:

I am very very sorry to hear about this. Remember before you go on vacation to download all contacts you may want to keep, including clients, on a flash drive that is secure to bring home. Delete everything as you have already started to do. Take the time for whatever you need to nourish your spirit and your soul. Go back to Vermont for the Fall leaves. Drive Brandon Gap and just sit and soak in what you want. Finally, as to the "successor" do whatever you feel like you need to do. Your instincts have been spot-on. Who knows, karma make work out for you....in a similar situation, management found that removing the people with institutional knowledge and experience and replacing them means stress and uncertainty for the replacements. I have seen these younger replacements realize that they are over their heads and stress made them leave faster that the company expected. Leaving a knowledge and experience vacuum forcing management to search unexpectedly for the people with experience that they pushed out the door.


Thanks. I had already exchanged our Vermont late fall week for a week in Cape Cod, for this month, so that is where we will be. Funny, I was thinking I really don't feel like going to Cape Cod now and wish we were going back up to Vermont instead. But I am sure once we are there it will be ok. Thankfully, the Fall is beautiful here in the Hudson Valley as well and I will have lots to do at home after my last week of work.

Everyone keeps telling me Karma has a way of working its' way around so I am sure in time that is what will occur.
 

WinniWoman

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My cousin just called me to tell me about things going on at her employer- again- a new owner/boss- and it ain't good. She has been there for many years - a lovely, sweet person and a hard worker- as are many of the other employees. Heads are rolling, entire departments are walking out. She is just taking one day at a time and doing her job best she can. She said lots of people- much younger than us- like in their 50's are even saying- to start over again at this stage in life is horrible and they do not know what they will do. Having to learn something else, being told you have to start again, be on probation for several months to accumulate vacation time, can't do this, can't do that, have to account to this one and that one, have to prove yourself all over again. Who the heck wants that?

I can relate because I did it myself. Now here I am so close the the finish line and I just don't have anything left in me to have to deal with another crummy job/employer.

Working for companies- big and small- not what it used to be. That's all there is to it.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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She said lots of people- much younger than us- like in their 50's are even saying- to start over again at this stage in life is horrible and they do not know what they will do. Having to learn something else, being told you have to start again, be on probation for several months to accumulate vacation time, can't do this, can't do that, have to account to this one and that one, have to prove yourself all over again. Who the heck wants that?
If that is mindset that a person has, that is the outcome they are pretty much guaranteed to have.

When I was just shy of 52 my boss walked in to my office on Wednesday, told me to take off the rest of the day and all day Thursday, and have all of my stuff out of the office by the end of the day on Friday. But I wasn't to take anything out of my office until a designated person was there to observe and inspect what I was removing. My boss asked for all of my office keys, and then locked my office door behind us after we left.

This wasn't a surprise. I knew it was coming for over a year, and I knew it was imminent when I had a performance review and I was being written up for things that happened on projects where I was only peripherally involved.I've gone through the performance documentation process on the other end, and I knew what was going on. (Though I never saddled people with things that weren't their responsibility.)

I took the high road - even though I had no obligation to do so, I gave the person doing the checkout a run down on all of the projects I was involved with, what the status was, where the materials were, and what deadlines were pending. Quite curious the company never though to ask that; they were going to have me walk out the door and leave all of my work hanging, even though there were contractual commitments. If they were going to treat me that way, I wasn't going to sully myself by stooping to their level.

And I certainly wasn't going to throw a pity party for myself.

I started working for myself - set up my own shop doing what I had been doing. That was 15 years ago, and those 15 years have been the most satisfying and enjoyable years of my career.
 
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mentalbreak

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I have already filled in the form and will adjust it if I feel I need to when the time comes to send it in. Or maybe I won't send it in at all, but I am thinking I will because I need to do so for closure.

“For closure” just mail it to yourself.
 

Jan M.

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If that is mindset that a person has, that is the outcome they are pretty much guaranteed to have.

When I was just shy of 52 my boss walked in to my office on Wednesday, told me to take off the rest of the day and all day Thursday, and have all of my stuff out of the office by the end of the day on Friday. But I wasn't to take anything out of my office until a designated person was there to observe and inspect what I was removing. My boss asked for all of my office keys, and then locked my office door behind us after we left.

This wasn't a surprise. I knew it was coming for over a year, and I knew it was imminent when I had a performance review and I was being written up for things that happened on projects where I was only peripherally involved.I've gone through the performance documentation process on the other end, and I knew what was going on. (Though I never saddled people with things that weren't their responsibility.)

I took the high road - even though I had no obligation to do so, I gave the person doing the checkout a run down on all of the projects I was involved with, what the status was, where the materials were, and what deadlines were pending. Quite curious the company never though to ask that; they were going to have me walk out the door and leave all of my work hanging, even though there were contractual commitments. If they were going to treat me that way, I wasn't going to sully myself by stooping to their level.

And I certainly wasn't going to throw a pity party for myself.

I started working for myself - set up my own shop doing what I had been doing. That was 15 years ago, and those 15 years have been the most satisfying and enjoyable years of my career.

So often the word comes down from on high that the senior and or higher paid employees have to go. In at will states at least they don't have to make up stuff to justify getting rid of you. All too often the bean counters who make these decisions have no comprehension of how the loss of the individuals being let go will impact the company. Nor do they care. It is all about reducing the salary and benefits expenses. I've yet to see a single one of them let go which is ridiculous because they are usually the most expendable employees in the company. I guess they are just in a position to protect themselves at the expense of the company. Big companies don't seem to see that.

In many cases, like my husband's and other people we've known in the same situation, the boss and his boss of the person being let go have no say whatsoever about it and can only carry out their orders. A good friend of ours was a boss in this situation and with each person he was forced to let go his workload increased. He was under tremendous strain never knowing if his turn would be next and carrying a ridiculous work load. The company stripped every benefit until there was nothing left but a minimal amount of vacation regardless of how many years he had worked there. He had been with the company 17 years and only had about 5 more years to go until he was eligible for medicare. The pension and retirement benefits were all gone. What he did was extremely specialized and he could have easily found another job because he was that good in his field but it would have meant moving. His wife, my friend, absolutely refused to move even farther away from her mother who was getting quite elderly and in poor health. He ended up being one of the last men standing in his and another department he was forced to take over and made it through til he was eligible for medicare. But it's a wonder the stress didn't kill him.

My husband was very fortunate to be in demand in his field and actually got hired over the phone for his job in Florida because a couple of the VP's knew him and his work. He only needed to work 6 more years but ended up working 7.5. His choice. He is enjoying retirement now. We both say him getting let go from his job up North and being able to move to Florida for the new job before he would have retired from the other company has been wonderful for us.

When I got moved down here to join him I had planned on going back to work. That didn't happen because we became grandparents for the first time and had three elderly pets who required a lot of care before each one passed. But I did find a little something that I could do from home to keep myself occupied. People who knew me were not impressed with what I said I wanted to do when I got down here and thought I wasn't serious. I said I would be completely happy to work part time at the Publix grocery store three blocks away. I may be good at it but I absolutely did not want the responsibilities of running a business or being anyone's boss ever again. Leaving or losing a job can be the best thing that ever happened to you. Sometimes you just aren't in a place that you can see it at that time it is happening.
 

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If you have not accrued the 6 PTO then it is correct that you won't be paid for them and you are not losing anything there. PTOs are accrued each month.
I don't see how you "have" these days but they're not "accrued." Usually time off is accrued per pay period, but I have seen a job where it was accrued at x days every y months

This is an entirely separate issue from UI. In California, you'd file a claim with the Department of Labor, and they'd get an order to pay or appeal. The appeal would probably cost more than the six days, especially with no onsite HR.

Again, the initial UI claim is probably an online thing. There probably WILL be a hearing, but it's possible they won't show up, again because of no local HR. If you show up loaded with documentation and they don't have good documentation because there's no one local to produce it, you should prevail. Remember how UI funding works: they're not facing outright payment of your claim, just the possibility of a rate raise. But they might be at the max already, and hence have nothing to lose. If witnesses are permitted, bring one to talk about the environment.
 

isisdave

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"[N]ow there is talk of a big get together for all ex employees! They would need a HUGE place to hold it at because there have to be a couple of hundred of us!"
-----------------------

Sounds like you could start a new company to compete with your s2bx-company.
.

You know, if there's really that many alumni, there has probably been a load of misclassification of employees as contractors, failure to pay owed PTO, etc. I'd invite a labor lawyer to join you. Heck, I'd invite one to PAY FOR the gathering.
 

WinniWoman

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If that is mindset that a person has, that is the outcome they are pretty much guaranteed to have.

When I was just shy of 52 my boss walked in to my office on Wednesday, told me to take off the rest of the day and all day Thursday, and have all of my stuff out of the office by the end of the day on Friday. But I wasn't to take anything out of my office until a designated person was there to observe and inspect what I was removing. My boss asked for all of my office keys, and then locked my office door behind us after we left.

This wasn't a surprise. I knew it was coming for over a year, and I knew it was imminent when I had a performance review and I was being written up for things that happened on projects where I was only peripherally involved.I've gone through the performance documentation process on the other end, and I knew what was going on. (Though I never saddled people with things that weren't their responsibility.)

I took the high road - even though I had no obligation to do so, I gave the person doing the checkout a run down on all of the projects I was involved with, what the status was, where the materials were, and what deadlines were pending. Quite curious the company never though to ask that; they were going to have me walk out the door and leave all of my work hanging, even though there were contractual commitments. If they were going to treat me that way, I wasn't going to sully myself by stooping to their level.

And I certainly wasn't going to throw a pity party for myself.

I started working for myself - set up my own shop doing what I had been doing. That was 15 years ago, and those 15 years have been the most satisfying and enjoyable years of my career.


Yes-I get it. I'm certainly am not throwing any pity party. I'm just a little bitter. But-like I said way up in a previous post- there is a big difference between being 62 and 52. I too, started over at 50 and came to this job, so I get it. But now- I just can't anymore.
 

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Of course I have read the entire thread. What I see is a really bad manager.

And a really bad company too as they had been made aware by other people. Bad management can make or break a business, especially a small business. It just grinds me to see companies or businesses get away with stuff like this. Most women don't like being confrontational and will put up with far more than they should from bad bosses.

As you well know from personal experience the best way to have control over your work situation is to be your own boss. But not everyone has that option for various reasons.
 
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vacationhopeful

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from personal experience the best way to have control over your work situation is to be your own boss

I am my own boss ... and have been since 1987.

From my personal experiences, YOU ARE NEVER YOUR OWN BOSS!

You must obey all sorts of local, state and federal laws. Like, what location and building you can operate your business (zoning laws), signs you need to identify your business, hours of operations, payments amounts and many benefits you (must or may) pay your employees or contractors (even IF they are independent contractors who are defactor employees who can demand benefits later in life).

As for ONLY using contractors to do all your work ... have a good lawyer for your non-compete agreement(s). And since your lawyer is writing up one for the contractors, get one for your employees to SIGN, too. And your relatives and part-time help. And remember, bragging in to family and friends they WILL ALL think you are making a lot of money. And I am sure, you are clearing a LOT LESS money than they all THINK.

So if you buy a vacation house, LIE and say you rented it. I rented out my modest vacation house to my boss's boss's secretary and got INVESTIGATED by the big boss. He saw her pictures of her vacation (his secretary's stay at my vacation home) and he had been to my personal residence house... and I was 25yo & a single female. He had pulled my company employment folder ... I got called into his office and ASKED, how I paid for these houses? Told him, I HAD to rent the vacation home to pay for it. And yes, he rented my vacation house a few months later.

PS I did have a second job. I taught at a community college 1 or 2 courses a semester. It was an approved action by my employer as these schools had a larger evening college attendance than their daytime.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Absolutely right. But there would be no story on the other side because never have I been brought in and accused of underperforming or had a bad attitude or had a client complaint. So what exactly would be their side to the story other than they want a younger, cheaper employee?
The things that come up are limited only by the imagination.

One of the main things I remember is that when I started doing the documentation process with one employee, the individual began complaining that they were being singled out, that none of the co-workers were being scrutinized to the same level.
After the second go-round on that topic and being a good listener, I realized that what was going on, consciously or unconsciously, was that the employee was trying to avoid acknowledging or addressing the performance issues that I was documenting. When I stopped being empathetic and insisted we attend to the performance, then I suddenly became a mean, insensitive, horrible person who was just out to screw employees.

I might add that I started a documentation process with all employees as soon as a deficiency item was noted in a performance review. We would start by talking about the issue, and why I had reached that conclusion. In 80% or more of cases, the employee acknowledged that it was an issue and moved to developing a response program - no further documentation. In the rest of the cases, the employee would request more information so I would start more involved documentation, and schedule a mid-year update with the employee. That took care of all but a handful of cases; those were the situations that were difficult. And they usually were cases where no amount of documentation was adequate; the employee was simply unwilling or unable to recognize the issue, and instead expected that we would adjust the entire work environment to address their particular situation.

So he was certainly correct in his observation that co-workers were not having their work scrutinized to the same level. That wasn't a question of unfairness

In my years of working in a company, I heard occasional stories from employees about how a certain boss was delighting in making their life miserable by documenting work performance issues. But I have never met a manager, including those being talked about in those stories, who enjoyed performance documentation. It's terrible, terrible, terrible work. It's time-consuming. It takes you away from doing other important things. It's not fun. If documentation is done poorly, it's probably because it's such unpleasant work to do.

**************

A mentor one time gave me a wonderful piece of advice. He said to always be sure that the value I was creating in my job exceeded the salary I was being paid. If I did that well I would always be able to find a job. If my employer was so stupid as to fire me, then I should be glad for the opportunity to go to work for a business that is better run than the one I just left.

If you know how you have been creating value and can document it, you have the easiest job interview in the world. I worked with a guy one time what kept a tally of all of the money saving projects he implemented or was involved with. About July of every year he would schedule a meeting with his boss, where he would show him how in the first six months he had already saved the company more money than they were paying him in his annual salary.

If you don't know how to assess the value of what you are doing, then you need to find out how to do that. And if you can't do that, then you should consider that at any point in time, you are vulnerable to having someone start questioning why you are being paid to do what you are doing.
 
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