2nd St. George property: Estancia

[rhonda]

Link: https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/resorts/es/

My feelings, "Ugh. Who needs this?" Super high point values, poor location (>1 hr drive from Zion; in a major housing development area), all Penthouse/Presidential units. Blech.

Then again, on further review, the Estancia location is simply across the street from the existing St. George location. One could almost see it as the "upscale unit" location of the same resort.

Talk me out of my initial impression? What are you thoughts?

 

[silentg]

My Geography is bad. I thought you were talking about Bermuda!

 

[DaveNV]

I guess if you need 3 or 4 bedrooms, and want to spend a lot to get it, then it makes sense. I'll never need more than 2 bedrooms, and rarely more than a 1 bedroom, so there is virtually no chance I'd ever book there, even if I had the credits to spend. But if the big families do, it frees up availability at WM St. George for those of us with lesser needs. That's a win, in my book.

Dave

 

[geist1223]

I think it is a ridiculous waste of time, energy, and money.

 

[bbodb1]

Having stayed at St. George last year, I do not recall it being a greater than 1 hour drive to Zion. More like 45 min BUT that was in July. I do recall the construction in progress during our visit.

 

[DaveNV]

I guess the question I still have about the place is whether the 3 bedroom units at the St. George facility book out so much that they needed an entire extra building with only 3 and 4 bedroom units? I'm new to WorldMark, so don't know the backstory on why Estancia was "needed." What was the justification?

Dave

 

[rhonda]

I guess the question I still have about the place is whether the 3 bedroom units at the St. George facility book out so much that they needed an entire extra building with only 3 and 4 bedroom units? I'm new to WorldMark, so don't know the backstory on why Estancia was "needed." What was the justification?

Dave

The cynical response to your question on justification: To give Wyndham something to sell.
The inflated point values of the super-deluxe units gives the developer lots of point-inventory to sell. If the units are in high demand by the WM owner base, then all is well with the world. If, however, the units do not attract owner demand, then the units have created additional demand on the existing inventory. Time, and the annual occupancy reports, will tell ... ?

Keep in mind that penthouse and presidential unit types have lower occupancy than standard units. Thus a std 3BR unit (12k/week Red season) at the existing St. George property sleeps the same as the 4BR unit (up to 24k/week Red season) types at Estancia. Estancia is set up to be "all about the luxury"?

 

[CO skier]

I guess if you need 3 or 4 bedrooms, and want to spend a lot to get it, then it makes sense. I'll never need more than 2 bedrooms, and rarely more than a 1 bedroom, so there is virtually no chance I'd ever book there, even if I had the credits to spend. But if the big families do, it frees up availability at WM St. George for those of us with lesser needs. That's a win, in my book.

Dave

That is exactly it. The 3 and 4 bedroom Presidential Casitas at WM Granby are quite popular, but it has taken a few years. (Try to book one for a week this summer and good luck). Look at the booking calendar for the 3 and 4 bedroom Penthouses at Estancia. They are already booking briskly, after only a couple of weeks of availability. Someone must know something, and that something is that the views from the Estancia 3 bedroom Penthouse units are better than the older St. George resort for the same credit cost. (Estancia is built on a rise above the older resort. Not all the new rooms have the best view to the north, so it will be the luck of the draw). No question Estancia is a great addition to WorldMark. Better than Austin, where a 2 bedroom Presidential is 28,000 credits and a regular 2 bedroom is 15,000 credits versus 18,000 credits for a 3 bedroom Penthouse at Estancia.

Owners who only book 1 and 2 bedroom units would obviously have no interest in these new 3 and 4 bedroom units, but there is a market, and Wyndham is cashing in on it. And the owners who book these units benefit from the new development, whether they own developer or resale credits.

The views from some of these new units look incomparable. Think of the views at Estancia as the desert equivalent of Depoe Bay.

 

[CO skier]

Having stayed at St. George last year, I do not recall it being a greater than 1 hour drive to Zion. More like 45 min BUT that was in July.

Zion is further away from St. George the other months?

 

[bbodb1]

Zion is further away from St. George the other months?

This occurs when swamp gas from a weather balloon is trapped in a thermal pocket, and refracts light from Venus......

 

[DaveNV]

I guess Estancia makes business sense, given the comments above. I grant that the red rock views in and around St. George are always nice, no matter which direction they're viewed from. And Zion is generally the same distance away all year round, although crowded roads can make it a longer drive, time-wise.

But Rhonda makes a great point - it gives Wyndham something to sell. More WM owners means more demand across the system, which reduces overall availability for current owners. I can see Estancia booking out briskly because it's new. (Isn't Myrtle Beach doing the same thing? Wait till Portland opens.) But over time, are those Estancia units going to end up in Monday Madness or whatever because they aren't booking as well, once the novelty is gone?

Dave

 

[rhonda]

Having stayed at St. George last year, I do not recall it being a greater than 1 hour drive to Zion. More like 45 min BUT that was in July. I do recall the construction in progress during our visit.

My drive time estimate came from Apple Maps which put it over 1 hour. I do recall, from our St George visit many years back, that we felt it was a rather long drive. Too long for us to say, "Great resort for visiting Zion." Instead, we noticed some smaller venues along the drive and determined to stay closer on our return visit.

Look at the booking calendar for the 3 and 4 bedroom Penthouses at Estancia. They are already booking briskly, after only a couple of weeks of availability. <snip> No question Estancia is a great addition to WorldMark. <snip>
The views from some of these new units look incomparable. Think of the views at Estancia as the desert equivalent of Depoe Bay.

Thanks for the reassurance and perspective!

 

[K2Quick]

I think this resort will do quite well. St. George is easily the #1 drive-to vacation spot for families along the Wasatch Front and Utah has much larger family sizes than is typical elsewhere. At the existing WM in St. George, it's the largest, fanciest units that typically go the quickest. Whenever we're down there during school breaks, it's seems like half of Salt Lake City is down there.

 

[Lisa P]

Was this a partly developed residential property that was taken over and redesigned for WorldMark or was it a ground-up build?

 

[CO skier]

This occurs when swamp gas from a weather balloon is trapped in a thermal pocket, and refracts light from Venus......

I once left St George at 5 a.m. when the moon was full and arrived at Zion 10 minutes sooner than expected. I attributed this to the tidal pull of the full moon setting behind me. (Zion was closer than I and GPS thought, relativistically).

 

[ecwinch]

I think the take-away is that WM has a very diverse membership, and clearly has a segment of customers that dont mind paying higher prices for upscale lodging. The cynical argument was made about a number of resorts pre-Wixon lawsuit, and the net was that WM gave back units at Indio and Anaheim that we probably would really, really like to have back now. Which is what happens when you believe that everyone wants to vacation like you might like to.

From my calculations, the utilization at St. George looks to be about 92%. Which I think is really high for a resort with seasonality like St. George.

And while we might hope for a new resort somewhere else, sometimes there has to be the alignment of need/demand and feasible projects. I see this as an intersection of a feasible project and demand.

As others have pointed out, if all they cared about was generating a lot of points to sell to people at Depoe Bay, there would easier ways to do it.

 

[IsaiahB]

Was this a partly developed residential property that was taken over and redesigned for WorldMark or was it a ground-up build?

Ground up construction in an existing HOA - Estancia Resort Owner's Association, Inc.

 

[K2Quick]

One thing I find silly about these new units, though, is that the three bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 6 and the four bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 8. Did nobody stop and think that maybe a sofa sleeper might be a welcome addition?

 

[geist1223]

One thing I find silly about these new units, though, is that the three bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 6 and the four bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 8. Did nobody stop and think that maybe a sofa sleeper might be a welcome addition?

You find the same thing at Seaside Oregon. A 3 Bedroom or 3 Bedroom Delux sleeps 8 - Murphy Bed in Living Room. But a 3 Bedroom Penthouse only sleeps 6. No Murphy Bed.

 

[CO skier]

More WM owners means more demand across the system, which reduces overall availability for current owners.

This confuses "availability" with "accessibility." Adding more resorts and credits to the system does not reduce the number of units available at the most popular resorts. When the total credits in the WorldMark system were half what they are today (rough guess), it was just as difficult to book a reservation at the Hawaiian resorts. The most popular reservations are booked at 13 months now just like they were 10 years ago. The availability at the Hawaiian resorts and Depoe Bay and West Yellowstone is the same as it has always been. The demand for the most popular units might be double what it was 10 years ago, but this does not change the availability.

What location expansion resorts, such as Estancia and Anaheim and Long Beach, do is increase accessibility to these areas. There are now 300 WM units in Anaheim instead of only the 100 units before the Anaheim resort was built, for example. If WorldMark were to double the number of units in Hawaii, the "availability" would remain the same, because all the Hawaiian resorts would continue to book at exactly 13 months.

 

[JohnPaul]

One thing I find silly about these new units, though, is that the three bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 6 and the four bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 8. Did nobody stop and think that maybe a sofa sleeper might be a welcome addition?

I've spent a few minutes pondering that over the years (since it's true in most penthouse/presidentials) and this is my theory.

Since these are fancy schmancy units that you are spending lots of points/$$ for you don't want someone sleeping in the middle of your living area. (Granted with a sleeper sofa it would be your choice ....but that's my thought)

 

[rhonda]

One thing I find silly about these new units, though, is that the three bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 6 and the four bedrooms only have an occupancy level of 8. Did nobody stop and think that maybe a sofa sleeper might be a welcome addition?

I believe it is consistent across the system that Penthouse and Presidential units have lower occupancy than standard units of same "size" (measured by number of bedrooms). Agreeing with thought posted above, fancy-schmancy units do not want someone sleeping in the living room.

 

[DaveNV]

This confuses "availability" with "accessibility." Adding more resorts and credits to the system does not reduce the number of units available at the most popular resorts.

What I meant was that if opening Estancia is opportunity to sell more WM timeshares, it will bring in more owners to the system. Not every new owner will only want to book Presidential units each time. Some of those owners will want to book smaller places, and that means more demand for what it is already a stressed availability. If a given location has fewer units available than the number of units the collective ownership wants to book, there will be competition to book those available units. So building Estancia may increase the number of larger units some people will want, but the downstream is that smaller places will feel the pinch of greater competition.

Dave

 

[Lisa P]

Agreeing with thought posted above, fancy-schmancy units do not want someone sleeping in the living room.

They may also prefer a more comfortable living room sofa. Most sleeper sofas are not very comfortable for sitting.

 

[CO skier]

What I meant was that if opening Estancia is opportunity to sell more WM timeshares, it will bring in more owners to the system.

10 years ago there were 274,000 WorldMark owners and 71 resorts. In 2017 there were 225,000 owners and 93 resorts. So, no, building more resorts does not lead to more owners.

If a given location has fewer units available than the number of units the collective ownership wants to book, there will be competition to book those available units.

Yes, and my assertion is that this was also true when there were half as many credits in the system 10 years ago. All the resorts added since then and all the credits added to WorldMark since then does not change the fact that there is more demand at some resorts at certain times than the supply, so the resorts book up at the first opportunity at 13 months. Adding Estancia does not change this one bit.

So building Estancia may increase the number of larger units some people will want, but the downstream is that smaller places will feel the pinch of greater competition.

Can you offer some examples from the past or going forward so that I can see this phenomenon on the WorldMark Planning Calendar?