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[2016] Aspen Highlands Ritz owners suing

Discussion in 'Marriott Vacation Club' started by saabman, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    115 Eagle Tree Ter
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  2. TheTimeTraveler

    TheTimeTraveler TUG Member

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    Thanks Dean!


    .
     
  3. Fasttr

    Fasttr TUG Member

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    Isn't that Trump National Jupiter. This article seems to say that Trump purchased it from Marriott Vacations Worldwide.
    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...pany-loses-lawsuit-filed-by-golf-club-members
     
  4. Ralph Sir Edward

    Ralph Sir Edward TUG Member

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    I am not concerned with the depreciation portion of the suit. That may not be provable.

    But if the governing docs explicitly say that they units cannot be used as timeshare intervals, then Marriott cannot use them as timeshare intervals, even if they bought out Ritz Carlton. What's in the governing docs rule.

    Let me give you a non-timeshare example (which really happened).

    US Government buys land for a new lake. Some of the land had old "stripper" oil wells on it. The government bought the producing lease. rather than buying the lease and the minerals as well. Their goal was to permanently shut in all oIl and gas production. They thought that by buying the lease, they controlled the production. They did - as long as there was production. When they shut it in, their lease went away, and all the value they had paid for reverted to the mineral owners. Who then sued to get paid the same amount, plus back interest - after the lake filled up. . . (They won.)

    The moral? The terms of the contract matter, no matter who you are. . .
     
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  5. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    Sure but a POS isn’t a contract in a truest sense because it can be changed, often somewhat unilaterally. We’d have to go through the entire POS and state law to formulate a good opinion on what they can and can’t do, there certainly isn’t enough here to do so. Generally the developer retains lots of leeway and rights, esp on unsold inventory or inventory under their control. I’d bet there was an exchange provision in the POS as well. My understanding was the loss of value was at the core of the suite and the issue with allowing timeshare exchanges was a major cause thus the inclusion was based on loss of value. My point is that I don’t think there’s a cause and effect. Certainly when things get into courts you never know what’s going to happen and it’s often not along the lines of what the contract or laws say (or even common sense) but more along activist or emotional lines. Plus sometimes a company will cut their losses from a financial standpoint rather than spending more defending somethings they can likely win. And those 2 points are often the very reason than many lawsuits are filed.
     
  6. mj2vacation

    mj2vacation Guest

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  7. rthib

    rthib TUG Member

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    For those wondering about the lawsuit, Motions on Motions to dismiss some expert testimony are due by 7/29 so no updates until then
     
  8. dioxide45

    dioxide45 TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    The Jupiter property voted to change to a different management company. They are now managed by Timbers.
     
  9. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

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    I am staying at the Ritz St Thomas club now using DPs. It is one of the best timeshares I have visited so far. It seems really empty right now. Maybe bc it is shoulder season or bc the hotel side is not yet open. Everything is really nice, the unit, layout, service, pool area, etc. I guess all I could wish for more would be more restaurants and stores nearby.
     
  10. ontilt

    ontilt TUG Member

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    I was looking at this recently and I've heard a rumor that with all of the Marriott / Starwood consolidation, that there's a "rumor" that the developer wants to settle. Let me restate that this is rumor and hearsay. That said, if there was a settlement with a class of owners, where would those funds come from? I would have a concern that somehow the developer would pass that to the rest of the owners in the form of a special assessment. Alternatively, it could be covered via some liability insurance of the HOA. Another possibility is that the developer just settles independently to make it go away, but this last possibility seems the least likely imo.

    Wondering if others have insight or thoughts on the above?
     
  11. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

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    I would hate to see the developer settle in the case. It seems unfair to punish all the other owners bc one class made a bad investment. All fractionals lose value the moment we sign the dotted line. The Four Seasons has seen terrible depreciation too whereas now you can bu an EOY week for a couple thousand and still get full owner privileges. Frankly, Ritz fractional owners get 3 weeks and several weeks in high season. Let's say they paid $200K for their fractional. To buy enough DPs to stay 3 weeks at the Ritz including high season weeks, you would need to be at least Chairman's level. Maybe higher. So assume we bought 15,000 DPs at $11 per point, that is $165K retail. So what on earth are the Ritz owners whining about? Did they pay more than $200K for 3 weeks? Plus I assume they get extra perks as a Ritz fractional owner that we know nothing about such as exchanging on elite networks as well as first opportunity to book high season weeks and other weeks. Not to mention the allure and self esteem that being a Ritz fractional owner probably gives them.
     
  12. ontilt

    ontilt TUG Member

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    I agree we could qualify it as a "bad investment". But when the developer/seller is stating that the property will hold value during sale, that's a mis-characterization that many of the folks here are aware of, but to the average buyer, that may not be very clear. Further, "fairness" seems to be something that falls to the wayside as it relates to owners vs. developers.

    I also agree with you that these owners claiming that they are "damaged" is a stretch given the point exchange value and the fact that the exchange is voluntary. From what I understand, MVC owners don't get access unless weeks are exchanged out of RC.

    All of that said, my question is really, who pays for it if the developer does settle? If they settle and 2/3 of the ownership has to pay an assessment, doesn't that just open the door for another class action? I'm just curious how one would navigate the risk of a special assessment here and if that's a possibility if the case were to be settled.
     
  13. dioxide45

    dioxide45 TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I highly doubt there would be a special assessment to other owners. That is far to obvious and if they settle, fault would be on Marriott so passing these on as direct costs to owners would be a problem. That said, it is always said that the customer pays for everything. So those costs will get passed on in some way or another, just not as a transparent special assessment.
     
  14. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    Usually companies look at this as a financial issue rather than on principle so they likely will settle it if they think that route is cheaper. IMO this is short term thinking with long term risk but that's often the way it goes whether it be malpractice or a large company. That's why I've commented a couple of times on TUG that a settlement does not equate to guilt, that and the fact that judge's and jury's are often activist rather than by the book.

    As for passing it on to the owners, that'd be difficult with audits and a BOD. About the most they could do would be to try to recoup it over time through the management contract and on the sale of any units. They likely do have secondary insurance to cover this type of risk and that's probably where most of any payment would come from if applicable.

    The bottom line issue seems to be the fact that the cold value of a timeshare is a fraction of the actual cost, the value is in the usage. It's kind of like having a fender bender when you drive a new car off a lot but you didn't have insurance.
     
  15. Ralph Sir Edward

    Ralph Sir Edward TUG Member

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    The real question will be whether or not Marriott will continue to be able to allow non-RC timeshare owners to book the RC resorts involved.
     
  16. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    Long term I suspect the answer will be no because they will likely move to a different management company when they can.
     
  17. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

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    Marriott needs to absorb it out of their bottom line and not push it to owners.
     
  18. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

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    This has been my fear. I hope the few RC resorts available through MVC do not move. This is a major selling point to me buying into MVC. Just visited RC STT and it is my favorite timeshare so far - other than my DVCs, LOL.
     
  19. Ralph Sir Edward

    Ralph Sir Edward TUG Member

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    I strongly suspect that if the plaintiff win, part of the settlement will be to cut off Marriott access. That is the part of the contract that is in breach. according to what I've read here. (I also suspect if it gets settled out of court, that will be one of the terms of the settlement.)
     
  20. ontilt

    ontilt TUG Member

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  21. rthib

    rthib TUG Member

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    Update, on June 14, "MINUTE ORDER by Chief Judge Philip A. Brimmer on 6/18/2019, re: 410 STIPULATION of Dismissal of Party Robert A. Sklar; 411 STIPULATION of Dismissal of Party Greg Jacobson. ORDERED that, all claims of plaintiffs Robert A. Sklar and Greg Jacobson against Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation, Marriott Ownership Resorts, Inc., Ritz-Carlton Management Company, LLC, Cobalt Travel Company, LLC, and The Lion & Crown Travel Co., LLC were dismissed with prejudice as of the entry of the Stipulations for Dismissal"
     
  22. Norcal5

    Norcal5 TUG Member

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    Thank you rthib
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 5:36 PM
  23. SueDonJ

    SueDonJ Moderator

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    They were the only two named in the suit, weren't they? So does it mean this one's done with no harm to MVW, or that a settlement occurred, or something else??

    Thanks for keeping this updated, rthib. :)
     
  24. Sapper

    Sapper Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    My legalese is rusty, but dismissed with prejudice means that the case is over and cannot be brought back on the same grounds. Someone had to pay Marriotts lawyers and I think Marriott can try to recover their costs from the folks who brought the suit.
     
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  25. SueDonJ

    SueDonJ Moderator

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    So, no chance this signals a possible mutual agreement to settle? I'm just wondering if Marriott had to concede any of the points brought up, even if the details are hidden.
     

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