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[2009] Westin Kaanapali Maintenance Fee complaints -- see here [+contact info.]

DanCali

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Pragmatically, the problem for the ebay buyer who transacts with such "resellers" is that the real owner can have the sale invalidated at any time (if a poa was signed). Title insurance will not protect the buyer in such circumstances. Admittedly, not likely in most cases, but possible.

Interesting... I actually have only bought direct (tug or redweek ads) so haven't dealt with eBay sellers. However, I have paid for title insurance and have seen title policies. I'm curious to learn more about the point you raise.

A title policy covers "any defect in or lien or encumbrance on the title" and "unmarketability of the title". Then you have a bunch of exclusions in "Schedule B" (typically in complex legalese) which say what is not covered...

If an owner signs a poa and takes the proceeds from the sale, how can they then invalidate the sale? Even if they do, why would title insurance not cover this? Is there a specific clause in Schedule B that relates to cases like this? My understanding is that anything not in Schedule B is covered...
 

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If an owner signs a poa and takes the proceeds from the sale, how can they then invalidate the sale?

Many (most) of the high-volume ebay sellers get their inventory from postcard companies (PCCS). The owner pays the PCC (often thousands of dollars) to "take the timeshare off their hands" and signs a POA which allows the PCC to then sell the timeshare. The owner does not get any proceeds from the sale and doesn't even know how or when the sale took place.
 

DanCali

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Many (most) of the high-volume ebay sellers get their inventory from postcard companies (PCCS). The owner pays the PCC (often thousands of dollars) to "take the timeshare off their hands" and signs a POA which allows the PCC to then sell the timeshare. The owner does not get any proceeds from the sale and doesn't even know how or when the sale took place.

Ok - but if the owner pays money to get the timeshare off their hands what legal recourse do they have to invalidate a sale? And why wouldn't title insurance cover this?

Also, would listings like WKORV classify as such? As much value as these VOIs have lost they are still worth five figures. Would some owners be SO misinformed to just pay money to get them off their hands without doing a bit of research? Seems odd that ebay sellers' WKORV listings are these types of listings.
 

Fredm

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Interesting... I actually have only bought direct (tug or redweek ads) so haven't dealt with eBay sellers. However, I have paid for title insurance and have seen title policies. I'm curious to learn more about the point you raise.

A title policy covers "any defect in or lien or encumbrance on the title" and "unmarketability of the title". Then you have a bunch of exclusions in "Schedule B" (typically in complex legalese) which say what is not covered...

If an owner signs a poa and takes the proceeds from the sale, how can they then invalidate the sale? Even if they do, why would title insurance not cover this? Is there a specific clause in Schedule B that relates to cases like this? My understanding is that anything not in Schedule B is covered...

Well, there are a number of scenarios, but I will explain the most prevalent.

A PCC usually does not actually take title to a timeshare.
They have the owner sign a limited POA. The owner thinks they are signing over the timeshare, but they are not.

The PCC then auctions the timeshare on ebay.
The PCC uses the POA to close the transaction.

The owner gets no money. In fact, they likely paid the PCC for what they thought was getting the timeshare out of their name.

The owner was lied to on several fronts. Including the misrepresentation of the legal ramifications of keeping the timeshare.
These amount to obtaining the owners POA "under duress", which invalidates the POA.

Should the owner later claim that the POA was obtained under duress (which every one of them can) the POA which was used to close the transaction is invalid.

The PCC has the money. The deed reverts back to the previous owner. The ebay buyer is holding the bag.
Title insurance will not cover the buyer in such a circumstance.

Now, this is exactly how most timeshares wind up on ebay at dramatically reduced prices.

Others are represented illegally, but are more difficult to reverse because the owner was actually involved in the final sale and deed transfer. This does not make the "reseller" activity legal, but does protect the buyer if title insurance is obtained.

What usually happens is an ebay reseller will "auction" a unit they do not have a legal right to represent. One bidding has ended, they present an "offer " to the owner. Those that do not bring a high enough price to actually induce an owner to sell, are tried again.

One can argue that the ebay bidding nonetheless reflects what the spot market for the timeshare really is. But, that is a false premise IMO, for several reasons.

PCC's have no equity in the timeshare, so any price is good enough.

Other illegal and unlicensed activity has none of the expense associated with conducting a legit business. Nor, does it proceed from the prospective of an owners equity interest. So, closed auctions such as the one you referred to are assumed to be the "market", which influences what bidders are willing to pay.
It becomes a self-fulfilling exercise.
The buyer may not care, but it is nonetheless, overall, illegal activity which has the effect of damaging the equity value of the market at large.

Car sellers can't get away with it, nor would they try.
Those that sell pens for $1 are dealing in a cheap commodity, so they have no incentive to sell what they do not own.

Only timeshares are at once a commodity, and high priced enough to encourage this type of activity.
 

DanCali

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Thanks for taking the time to explain.
 

jarta

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LisaRex, ... "Quote:
Originally Posted by jarta
I think since the debate centers around the provisions of the "90 day rule" and how it works, it would be useful if someone posted the rule or a link to where it is earlier posted on TUG. I do not remember anyone posting the provisions in the last few years. Thanks in advance to whoever comes up with the rule.

You're killing me! (furiously paging through the OA)."

Any luck yet finding them? Anyone else? TIA. ... eom
 

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Fredm, Thanks for the detailed explanation of how an Ebay auction can go bad. It took me some time to figure out that PCC was Post Card Company and POA was limited Power of Attorney. For us uninitiated to the acronyms used, it helps if the acronyms are spelled out the first time they are used in a post.

So one can avoid these problems if the owner on the deed is actually the seller?
And if they are not, determine if the listing agent is registered as a real estate broker?
And if the seller only has a POA, require some form of legal acknowledgment from the actual owner?

BTW, even if the selling agent is licensed, and they are using a POA, is it still possible for the owner to later renege on the deal as you described?

Greg
 

Fredm

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Fredm, Thanks for the detailed explanation of how an Ebay auction can go bad. It took me some time to figure out that PCC was Post Card Company and POA was limited Power of Attorney. For us uninitiated to the acronyms used, it helps if the acronyms are spelled out the first time they are used in a post.

So one can avoid these problems if the owner on the deed is actually the seller?
And if they are not, determine if the listing agent is registered as a real estate broker?
And if the seller only has a POA, require some form of legal acknowledgment from the actual owner?

BTW, even if the selling agent is licensed, and they are using a POA, is it still possible for the owner to later renege on the deal as you described?

Greg

Sorry about the acronyms.

You have summarized perfectly.

In response to your last question, yes it is possible for the seller to claim that the POA was obtained under duress. In fact, some PCC's have affiliated themselves with a broker to avoid the law as it relates to non-licensed activity. The manner in which the POA is obtained remains sleazy.

If one asked the owner for legal acknowledgment of the POA, most would not know what you are talking about. They mostly think that they were rid of the timeshare when they paid the PCC. That's part of the scam.

Of course, the next logical question is why would a licensed broker not simply enter into a list agreement with the owner, and represent the sale honestly?
The answer is that there is much more money in taking several thousand dollars from the owner up-front, and keeping 100% of the sale proceeds.

If everyone approached an ebay purchase as you have accurately summarized, most ebay auctions would disappear. It would put the PCC's out of business. Owners would no longer be victimized by these crooks, and quality tier timeshares would not suffer the deep erosion of value we have witnessed.
The relatively few auctions conducted by the owners themselves would then reflect an honest spot market valuation.

I do not delude myself into believing this will happen. Most buyers could care less about the ill-begotten nature of the goods being purchased. So, they feed the problem.

I apologize for this dialog going off topic.
It is better pursued in a separate thread. There is much to discuss.
 
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DavidnRobin

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While FredM and I do not see eye-to-eye on the value of the eBay sales thread - and caveat emptor for eBay sales. Many folks have had successful TS transfers from eBay (including myself) - just make sure you protect yourself, and be aware of the pitfalls. DO NOT send $ to the seller - and be wary of Title/ESCROW Companies. Do your due diligence - if you do not have the time or inclination - do not use eBay - use a reputable broker/title/escrow (like represented here on TUG).
 

GregGH

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Here is the 2010 WKORV-N budget, broken down into categories. Note that the numbers on the budget they included don't add up, which explains why my numbers aren't exactly what was billed:

The first column in the Ocean Resort Master Association Fee.
The second column is the Ocean Resorts Villas North Vacation Owner's Assn
The third column is the Association of Apartment Owners of Ocean Resorts Villas North
The fourth column is for SVN/ARDA fees.
The fifth column is the total.

(My first question to the board is why all the different associations!)

I categorized them as:

(M) - Management fees - directly billed management fees or expenses that a normal business (including the Westin hotel down the street) would INCLUDE in a management fee.
(R) - "Running the Place" - fees directly associated with running the place
(T) - Taxes
(X) - Extraordinary expenses which in a good economy we hopefully wouldn't see.

M - Admin............$51.03.....$80.54....$12.21....$0.00....$143.78
M - Annual Audit .........................$0.28......$0.62......$0.61....$0.00.....$1.51
M - ARDA....................................$0.00......$0.00......$0.00....$5.00.....$5.00
M - Financial Services...................$0.35 ......$23.68.....$0.36....$0.00.....$24.39
M - Kaanapali North Beach Master Assn $0.00 $0.00.....$5.29....$0.00.....$5.29
M - Management Fee...................$15.08.....$113.75....$52.89....$0.00....$181.72
M - Owner Services.....................$0.00......$35.79.......$0.00....$0.00....$35.79
M - SVN Fee..............................$0.00.......$0.00........$0.00..$113.53...$113.53
M - Technology Services..............$0.00.......$3.91........$0.00....$0.00 ....$3.91
Total Management Fees.....$66.74.....$258.29.....$71.36...$118.53..$514.92


R - Activities $0.51.....$0.00.......$38.72.....$0.00.....$39.23
R - Cable Television.....................$0.00.....$0.00........$6.43.....$0.00......$6.43
R - Housekeeping & Rooms...........$0.00..$411.27.......$35.90.....$0.00 .....$447.17
R - Insurance.............................$11.81..$32.84........$93.52....$0.00......$138.17
R - Internet................................$0.00....$0.00...........$3.31...$0.00........$3.31
R - Licenses & Permits..................$0.00....$0.00..........$0.08....$0.00 ........$0.08
R - Repairs................................$51.43..$121.61.......$22.59....$0.00.......$195.63
R - Utilities................................$35.06....$0.00.......$174.33...$0.00........$209.39
Total to Run the
..........................Place..........
$98.81...$565.72....$374.88...$0.00.....$1,039.41



T - AV (Real Estate) tax..............$0.08......$480.81......$0.00.....$0.00 ......$480.89
T - Excise Tax...........................$0.47.......$68.38.......$0.00....$0.00........$68.85
T - West Maui Benefit Fund..........$0.00.......$10.30.......$0.00....$0.00........$10.30
Total
..............Taxes
.....................$0.55.......$559.49......$0.00....$0.00.....$560.04



X - Uncollectible Accounts............$6.52......$149.29......$80.42....$0.00.......$236.23
X- Prior Year Deficit..................$17.29........$62.84......$19.34....$0.00.......$99.47
X - Total Extraordinary
...........................................$23.81......$212.13 .....$99.76....$0.00.....$335.70


Total Regular Expenses.......$189.91...$1,595.63......$546.00....$118.53.....$2,450.07


Replacement Reserves.............$5.50......$153.30........$35.87.......$0.00......$194.67



Grand Total============$195.41==$1,748.93==$581.87===$118.53=$2,644.74
Amount Billed 165.83 1732 581.77 118.53 2598.13
Difference $29.58 $16.93 $0.10 $0.00 -$46.61
Hi
I try to read a fair # of posts - I do not remember seeing details on many ( any?) TS budgets before ... could be interesting to see some more comparisons. I had to find my Aviara 2010 stmts ... we don't seem ( I could be wrong) to have any Un-collectable costs - but there is always a page details the steps on delinquent accounts and that prompt action will be taken ( implied or stated ) - vs - yours --and I wonder how much worse your can get ?? This could really be a big issue the more your owner's bail??

Our reserve replacement fund of $383 is higher than your 'repairs' of $195 If I am matching correctly ( and one assumes that would be as Aviara is forever changing and fixing things well before they show much if any wear)

I do realize this is comparing apples to pears - but with enough data - you will see patterns emerge. Our overall fees are $2151 for 2010 and a LOT of costs are incurred keeping that 'extra service' whereas you seem to have a ton of overhead costs. Our Total Operating are $1619 and 'Other' ( including reserve funds/mgmt/misc ) is $531 = $2151.

This data is presented to help in any comparisons. You seem to have a few problems ( taxes included ) but others like multiple organizations and default of payments are all issues maybe better sepearated and dealt with.

What is the quality of the member of your HOA board ??

Greg

p s- this thread was linked to the http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118037&page=3 ARDA thread ---wow --an equally interesting thread ... sure shows how much more I have to learn 'before I know it all '
 
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DeniseM

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What is the quality of the member of your HOA board ??

All of the candidates on the current board were hand picked by the BOD to run. There is an application process and Starwood picks the candidates.

A Tugger ran this year (and was able to circumvent the BOD selection process by quoting the local election statutes to them) but the board didn't receive enough Proxy ballots for a quorum, and they selected one of their hand picked candidates for the position.
 

jarta

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GregGH, ... "but the board didn't receive enough Proxy ballots for a quorum, and they selected one of their hand picked candidates for the position."

There were 2 tries at an election. The 1st one failed because of a lack of a quorum (the proxies were mailed late). The 2nd try had a quorum.

The TUG member candidate had his name on the ballot and his statement of candidacy circulated with the ballot.

The TUG member candidate did not have enough votes to outvote the HOA board controlled proxies (the ballots returned in blank which give the board the right to vote them as they see fit).

The person who won the election (a woman from Pebble Beach, CA) owned with her husband about 12 weeks at the Maui resort.

But, yes, the sitting board - after interviewing both candidates - cast the majority of votes for the person it wanted on the board. And, yes, the TUG member who lost was very qualified. ... eom
 

oneohana

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jarta is correct that they did have a quorm. I don't know where the idea that there wasn't enough for a quorm came from.
 

Tenorsinging

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I have gone from $12-1300 a year to this year $3000 and change!!! It is absolutely crazy!!!

If there is a more current thread, someone let me know. I as probably many of you received something about protesting taxes and how they have "won" and there will be some sort of refunds,....anyone guess my next question? UMMMMM...so WHERE IS OUR REFUND FOR THIS CRAZY AMOUNT???

Seriously, there has to be something that we can do. What about truth in advertising..what about how they misrepresented the maintenance fees when they sold us the unit? I don't know about you guys, but I was told they mostly held steady, with only small incremental increases. OK...stop laughing, I know I should not have bought it.

I just can't believe that there is absolutely nothing that we can do other than not pay the maintenance fee and be in default. I am happy to sign a petition or something like that if there is another more updated thread for this years complaints, but it's hard to wade through all the Maui threads to find it.

Thanks for any feedback.
 

Westin5Star

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We could vote Starwood out and try to hire someone like Hyatt, Hilton, or Royal to brand and manage the property. Oh wait, many have argued that losing the Westin brand could negatively affect our resale values; we wouldn't want for that to happen :rofl:
 

Tenorsinging

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Resale???.....what is this make believe word Resale Value?

Well, they are right in prices going up in one way. The price to buy into time shares is going up, the maintenance fees are going up....but reselling them for what a higher price than what you paid??? Have not heard of this so far.
 

DavidnRobin

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W5* may mean the resale value we have left.
 

skpark701

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I was offered to change my ownership from WKORV to Westin Princeville (Sept. 2010) and I took it.. Although I did purchase one more week at Kauai but it is somewhat less MF two combined... I wanted to change to different property such as Cancun but the exchange only offered to Westin Princeville...

I was wondering did anybody else took this offer???
 

LisaRex

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I was wondering did anybody else took this offer???

I explained in the other thread why I didn't think this was a good deal. Honestly, I wish you'd have found Tug before you made that decision.
 

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WKORV Class Action Lawsuit

Hi everyone, my wife & I own 2 timeshares at the Westin KaAnapali (South & North) Villas in Maui. We spoke with a Westin representative when we were there in december 2011, and he was aware of the fact that the WKORV recieved a favorable ruling and refund of a substatial amount of money based on the property tax re-evaluation. However, even though ALL the homeowners were forced to pay higher maintenance fees the past 3 years, we are not getting the money back, but instead STILL paying the higher annual man
intenance fees. Anyway, during our meeting in December with the Westin representative it became apparent without him admitting it that something bad is happening with various Board Members and we should file a Class action Lawsuit, force a full audit of the books and try to get our money back (the refund belongs to the owners, NOT the Board members) and also get the annual dues reduced back to where they should be. Has anyone started this process/ If not, we need to get something started!
 

DeniseM

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I am the last person to defend Starwood, but the maintenance fees have gone down since taxes were reduced, so I'm not sure what you are referring to?

Also - I wouldn't give a nickle for any info. from a Sales Rep.

What refund do you think the Board Members got, that other owners didn't get?

Can you tell us a little more about what is happening with some board members that's "bad"?

2012
Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas - South
2 Bd. L/O Deluxe (corner) - $2,825.51
2 Bd. L/O - $2,180.74

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas - North
2 bd. L/O - $2,344.56
2 bd. L/O EOY - $1,192.28

2011
Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (South)
2 Bdm. L/O Dlx (Large) - $ 2,825.97
2 Bdm. L/O - $2,050.86

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas North
2 Bdm. L/O EOY $1,177.22
2 Bdm. L/O Ocean Front - $2314.43

2010
Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (2 bdm.) - $ 2,346.36
Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas (2 bdm. Dlx) - $3,076.69

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas North (2 bdm.) - $2479.60
 
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larryallen

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Well, there are a number of scenarios, but I will explain the most prevalent.

A PCC usually does not actually take title to a timeshare.
They have the owner sign a limited POA. The owner thinks they are signing over the timeshare, but they are not.

The PCC then auctions the timeshare on ebay.
The PCC uses the POA to close the transaction.

The owner gets no money. In fact, they likely paid the PCC for what they thought was getting the timeshare out of their name.

The owner was lied to on several fronts. Including the misrepresentation of the legal ramifications of keeping the timeshare.
These amount to obtaining the owners POA "under duress", which invalidates the POA.

Should the owner later claim that the POA was obtained under duress (which every one of them can) the POA which was used to close the transaction is invalid.

The PCC has the money. The deed reverts back to the previous owner. The ebay buyer is holding the bag.
Title insurance will not cover the buyer in such a circumstance.

Now, this is exactly how most timeshares wind up on ebay at dramatically reduced prices.

Others are represented illegally, but are more difficult to reverse because the owner was actually involved in the final sale and deed transfer. This does not make the "reseller" activity legal, but does protect the buyer if title insurance is obtained.

What usually happens is an ebay reseller will "auction" a unit they do not have a legal right to represent. One bidding has ended, they present an "offer " to the owner. Those that do not bring a high enough price to actually induce an owner to sell, are tried again.

One can argue that the ebay bidding nonetheless reflects what the spot market for the timeshare really is. But, that is a false premise IMO, for several reasons.

PCC's have no equity in the timeshare, so any price is good enough.

Other illegal and unlicensed activity has none of the expense associated with conducting a legit business. Nor, does it proceed from the prospective of an owners equity interest. So, closed auctions such as the one you referred to are assumed to be the "market", which influences what bidders are willing to pay.
It becomes a self-fulfilling exercise.
The buyer may not care, but it is nonetheless, overall, illegal activity which has the effect of damaging the equity value of the market at large.

Car sellers can't get away with it, nor would they try.
Those that sell pens for $1 are dealing in a cheap commodity, so they have no incentive to sell what they do not own.

Only timeshares are at once a commodity, and high priced enough to encourage this type of activity.

I am no real estate lawyer but I would think the Ebay buyer is a BFP, or bona fida purchaser. I think they would be totally protected.
 

DeniseM

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Please note that this thread is from 2009, and Fred's post is from 2010, and it was brought out of mothballs by a newbie.
 

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Resorts Owned
WKORV OFD (Maui)
WPORV (Kauai)
WSJ-VGV (St. John)
WKV (Scottsdale)
I am sure SVO would like to keep this thread buried as well...
:D
 
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