[2006] Another Encroachment Problem

[Htoo0]

If there are rules which are being ignored, then "what they said". Go up the chain of command, contact the press, hire an attorney. Direct this at the Corps. They hate press involvement, lawsuits, pressure from elected officials, etc. Even the threat of them may be enough to change their minds and enforce the rules. Best of luck.

 

[JLB]

Good Suggestions

These are things we have been thinking about or already done.

I already went to a higher-up at the Corps, the person everyone here reports to. That was last May and he told us to continue on the path we were on. He, the head ranger, and the duty ranger here have all told us nothing suspicious would be allowed on our dock and all confirmed the unanimous approval rule.

Amazingly, our attorney two attornies ago called back today. I have always respected his advice while not being able to stomach his failure to communicate with us and his price tag.

I still respect his advice, which today I got for free. It is: he can take $10000 of our money and make our neighbor's lives a bunch of ----. He can get a restraining order on them and an injunction to stop the building of the dock. He can fight the Corps, probably make them stand by their rules.

Then, after all of that, the dock is going to get built, because the Corps has already made that decision.

He said the worst they can do to us is put a lien on our slip, but so what. Don't pay it. Ignore them, don't give them any money, move your boat to your new dock and let them sit there with an empty slip in their's.

And, he said, why the ---- haven't sold and the ---- away from those --------.

We know the bullies asked the Corps if they could rebuild the dock without our slip in it. They were told NO, they have to leave our slip in it. We are sure they were also told since we did not approve the rebuilding plan they have to pay our share, but I'm trying to get that confirmed.

So, things could be worse than a brand-new slip for free. That is essentially where I was at last week.

I'm leaning toward one email to the Corps and then let things roll as they will. After all, we have a dock of our own and the Corps can do whatever they want with us on it.

The lesson: Even those who make the rules and insist on everyone obeying the rules, don't.

Those who have taken over our dock are the type that will let everyone on Table Rock Lake know what they have gotten away with. This will come back to haunt the Corps many times over when the other -------- dock managers start running roughshod over their owners, conducting business without owners' approval..

I don't think I ever said this, but six of our ten slips were once owned by people that have gotten similar treatment, so have left. The head ------- has to behave this way. He doesn't know any other way. Our satisfaction is that sooner or later he is going to turn on someone, or all, who is/are now supporting him, and it will be their own fault.

 

[Kal]

JLB - For some odd reason you obviously enjoy this nonsense.

 

[cgeidl]

Move

If you stay you may win the battle but lose the war. If we lived there we couldn't move quick enough. Why spend your life expending so much negative energy???Seems like the police, attorneys, aand neighbors are all against you.
I don't think I could ejoy living there if there were no encroachment problems.

 

[John Cummings]

I agree with Kal, I think Jim likes all of this stuff.

 

[JLB]

It goes without saying that the comments suggesting I/we enjoy this kind of stuff are nonsense, a bit harsh. I would like to be able to twitch my nose and have them trade places and see how they would deal with it. (or maybe twitch their nose ) But, this is a public forum, where nearly all folks are welcome, those with compassion and . . . .

That sort of reaction from a limited number is not unusual here. I remember in the Spring of 2002 when both Fern and I were having the same problem with one of the exchange companies. Several here got involved and helped me. I kept reporting and the thread grew, the bulk of the contributors being people sincerely interested in a successful outcome. Yeah, I did enjoy what we were able to accomplish together, the 139-page study I sent to the exchange company. When it came, an outcome I was OK with, a couple were very disappointed that they had gotten strung along for all that time and a major change in that exchange company did not come about.

That's life on the Internet.

I do, however, enjoy sharing and the feedback I get from friendly and supportive folks here, and elsewhere. Dozens of TUGger have been here, been on the dock, spent a day on the swim deck swimming in the lake, been out in the boat, so this seems like a natural place to discuss it.

They realize that this is something that has/is consumed us. Stuff like this is next to impossible to go through on your own and I appreciate the open ear and crutch TUG provides.

I am not the only one that opens their heart to others here. We talk about life, illness, death, financial hardship, bad personal relations, and on and on. I would hope that the Lounge will always be here for that purpose and we are not discouraged by the few.

Yeah, it sometimes is a foolish thing to do, sharing with others that is. Like folks always say, don't tell others your troubles. Some don't care and the others are glad you have them.

Today I feel as this episode is pretty much a done deal. Things are different than when the thread started. Things are different that they were three days ago.

I have gotten the professional legal advice that I needed and some here encouraged. I do not feel there is anything we can do about our neighbors, the sheriff, the prosecutor, or the US Army Corps of Engineers. Jenny and I stood on high moral ground. We were up there all alone, but at least we didn't get any of the stuff down lower on us.

Our hateful neighbors are very good at what they do, good enough to convince government agencies to ignore their own laws, rules and policies solely for their own benefit. This is the third time the same three guys have concocted a story and gone to a government agency and gotten their way.

That is why six of the ten slips in the dock are not owned by the same people that owned them when we came here 8 years ago.

I am smart enought to know not to fight those sorts of odds. I thought I could handle the head bullies. I believe in good over evil. I did get the road done, at least.

If our neighbors can manage to be good winners and this is really over, everyone is better off. If that's case, the Corps did the right thing. It's sorta shooting a horse with a broken leg.

There's not many things uglier than a bad winner.

So they are going to build the dock and they have to include our slip in it. They will either sue us for our share of the cost even though they offered to pay it and even though we never gave our approval, or they won't. If they do and win, they will either put a lien on our slip or they won't.

So what?

We will still wind up with a new slip in a new dock and it's increase in market value will be more than our share of the cost to rebuild it, even if we have to pay.

If things go as planned we will be in a new lakefront house down the road, out of the bullies' subdivision and not in their sight. We will have our own 6-slip dock on the bank below our new house, something none of the bullies will have. We will still be on the road I spent 15 months of pretty much full-time volunteer time getting built.

Eventually, the bullies will turn on someone else, probably those who have stood by their side, bought their lies, because they always have, eventually. Before this they did not like jet skis, people bringing guests to the dock, people parking cars on the road in front of their houses, and kids. They have had to suck up to those people and allow all that to get their support. All that will be over now and eventually they will strike out at those they no longer need.

In the beginning, the head bully told a very Christian couple that he has recently found God, in order to get thier support. Since then he has blasphemed the Lord every chance he gets. Vengeance is mine, sayeth who?

And, since the three bullies did not really like each other coming into this, and I/we are the focus that brought them together, when they longer have me to pick on they will likely turn on each other also.

Their dock has bad karma, old or new, and always will. They will always feel the bad vibes of all the fights and ill will that have taken place there, not just us, but all the others over the years.

And yeah, when they picked on me they picked on the wrong guy.

And we still have an ace in the hole. We can sell our house and our slip in their dock to whomever we please. As an example, another house on our road is held in trust by a nice Catholic family with 11 grown and married brothers and sisters. You can imagine how many that means, including all of them, their kids, cousins, friends, etc. You should see their place on memorial Day, Labor Day, and the 4th of July. Our house would make a nice lake place for that type of family.

Life can be ------, but I keep it in perspective. At least we are not screwed, forgotten, ignored by the government like Katrina victims.

 

[Gadabout]

And we still have an ace in the hole. We can sell our house and our slip in their dock to whomever we please. As an example, another house on our road is held in trust by a nice Catholic family with 11 grown and married brothers and sisters. You can imagine how many that means, including all of them, their kids, cousins, friends, etc. You should see their place on memorial Day, Labor Day, and the 4th of July. Our house would make a nice lake place for that type of family.

Life can be ------, but I keep it in perspective. At least we are not screwed, forgotten, ignored by the government like Katrina victims.

Tell them you're also looking into using your place for a deserving Section 8 family....

 

[bogey21]

I'm curious what you are going to tell prospective purchasers about their dock ownership.

Another thought. I like the idea of going to Corps of Engineers Headquarters in DC with a short, consise description of how the local Corps violated their rules, and how knowledge that they did it will get around and impact the lake.

GEORGE

 

[JLB]

I'm curious what you are going to tell prospective purchasers about their dock ownership.

Another thought. I like the idea of going to Corps of Engineers Headquarters in DC with a short, consise description of how the local Corps violated their rules, and how knowledge that they did it will get around and impact the lake.

GEORGE

It's amazing how high and mighty lake buyers are. They think they can handle anything, just like we did. Many of our TUG guests just kinda shrug it off and say something like, "Yeah, we had a problem like this once."

I lean toward being honest (part of my problem) so I would tell them the slip is $25000, or however much it is then, and then take care of the lien (if there is one) out of that.

Part of my study of this problem has been talking to a couple of the brokers in the larger real estate offices. This type of problem, with so many retirees being in charge of docks, roads, associations, etc., is common, and the official policy is to not mention it to prospects. The only things on the Disclosure Statement are mandatory fees. Neighbor disputes are not covered by the real estate disclosure laws.

As to reporting to higher-ups in the Corps, how do you think that would play out when Clint (our Ranger) comes out to inspect our new flotation (when we put it in), our new electrical system (when we put it in) and the roof extension we have built to protect our boat?

The locals know the higher-ups are already aware of the problem and they made the decision they did.

Frankly, it is a good decision from the standpoint of ending of all this, if it does do that. Kal and John won't have to hear about any more. But, if the bullies only use it as a springboard to more offensive conduct, then it was a big mistake. For now, it is a relief to not have to wonder what the old farts are up to running around to each others' houses carrying their little envelopes and pieces of paper. We know what they are up to!

FWIW, I just ran to Wal Mart and met them on the way out, head bully driving and his two captains riding. Actually, it's more like a captain and a sergeant.

Jenny finds it intersting that someone thinks that someone in a cushy Washington, DC job, far removed from the front lines, would give a rip about what's going on at the end of the road in Lampe, MO.

 

[JLB]

An interesting point I am waiting to see how the Corps handles~~~There are legal documents each slipowner has to execute for a rebuild. An Approval Letter and a Bill of Sale, which gets recorded.

It will be interesting how the US Government proposes to force a citizen to execute legal documents against their will.

Then, of course, since they know that is being done against their will, it will be interesting on what grounds they can force the person to pay for something their approval was required for, but not given.

But, still, if they have that figured out and are not going to force us to execute documents against our will or pay for something we do not want, I'm not all that un-OK with this. After all, on November 24 I did say:

"While driving today for Thanksgiving, in separate vehicles, I talked to Jenny by cell phone about settling with our neighbors. Let them have their dock if they will commit to a voluntary restraining and gag agreement, so that it truly will be the end to all the hatred."

 

[Kal]

... Kal and John won't have to hear about any more....

...someone in a cushy Washington, DC job, far removed from the front lines, would give a rip about what's going on at the end of the road in Lampe, MO.

Do you REALLY think anyone in the Federal Government either has the time or desire to care about the little guy who makes no political contribution$? Yep, I'm from the Federal Government and I'm here to help you....HAH!

If I were your beloved neighbors I would just slap a lien on your house for the % owed. Then I know I'll get my $$$$$ at the time of any sale.

 

[resp20]

Jim, I don't care what other posters might think, I have nothing but admiration for how you handled your problem. If you don't stand up for whats right in this life you'll never be able to hold your head up. Anyone that tells you to cut and run is wrong and just shows whats wrong with this country. Don't ever forget, they can kill you but they can't eat you! I thank God theres still a few real men still out there that stand up for whats right.
Bill

 

[JLB]

Thanks Bill:

I've been waffling. Accept our fate or continue to fight.

Last night my brain would not shut off when I went to bed, so I got up and it wrote the letter that seems to be called for. It was involuntary on my part and useless to fight it. I had to write it.

We've fought this hard for 8 years it seems like not appealing would be admitting that the lies the Corps has been told about us, to get the Corps to take our rights away from us, are true.

They are not. The bullies have lied to our Commission, the Sheriff, the electric company, all the neighbors and those in our dock, and now the Corps.

I sent the Bill of Sale for Jenny's brother to transfer the slip back to us and once I turn it in I will decide whether to send the letter. It will go to the people it needs to go to.

I will include a transcript of one of the head bully's assaults of me, the one I call the "I'll grab you be the ------- throat and cut your ------- head off" transcript.

I am not opposed to the old farts getting their dock. How the Corps is going about this, how they expect to compel us to execute legal documents against our will, pay for something we do not approve of, and what terms or restrictions have been on the old farts need to be spelled out in writing.

Because I have not slept for two days I'll defer commenting on/to the naysayers. (anyone got a sleeping smilie?)

 

[JLB]

If I were your beloved neighbors I would just slap a lien on your house for the % owed. Then I know I'll get my $$$$$ at the time of any sale.

Even though I'm tired and cranky and said I wasn't going to reply to this today, on my way back to Wal*Mart to get the other orange bag of catfood (as I took the one in I was returning, the guy putting the return sticker on it said, "Wife sent you to do her shopping, huh?" and when I got to the service counter the lady said, "Wife sent you to do her shopping, huh?") the answer just came to me, involuntarily, like the letter I had to write last night.

That type of action, especially when you know I am ready to settle the dispute forever and move on, is exactly what has kept it going for so many years. And if you actually followed through with it, it would pretty much guarantee what kind of new neighbors and dockmates~~~in the slip right next to yours~~~you are going to have.

You don't know me but I can assure you that you could have a lot worse neighbors than Jenny and me.

 

[JLB]

If I were your beloved neighbors I would just slap a lien on your house for the % owed. Then I know I'll get my $$$$$ at the time of any sale.

Now after a night's sleep (the dream analyzers would have a hey-day with mine last night )

This reminds me of Spy vs. Spy. It was always funny in Mad Magazine, but not so funny in neighborhood relations.

Like I said, just when we were ready to settle, here comes this. I even sat down the other morning with a legal and wrote out a settlement agreement, one in which we were giving up quite a lot in return for harmony.

But it takes two sides to negotiate.

Rewarding bad behavior . . . no telling where that will lead.

Like the attorney said, so what if they put a lien on our house? There's ways to get the money out of our house without selling it, and have it actually produce income for us, until long after all of them are gone.

Wouldn't it make more sense to bury the hatchet?

 

[bogey21]

Wouldn't it make more sense to bury the hatchet?

You bury yours. The bully doesn't bury his. Who wins the next fight?

GEORGE

 

[Kal]

Wouldn't it make more sense to bury the hatchet?

It sounds like there is SOOOO MUCH water over the bridge I really doubt the ax can be buried (in the ground). Toss some leaves in the air and see which way the wind is blowing. It's likely blowing in your direction i.e. the "they hate me" direction.

Besides, if you bury the ax look at all the fun you'll be missing out on. No more land grabs. No more junk piled up next to your property. No more smoke in your direction. No commie conspiracy. Other than in Kosovo there's no where else you can find that kind of action.

 

[JLB]

When you share on the Internet occassionally someone comes along who has the situation sized up perfectly. They even come up with good ideas.

That makes up for all the rest.

Check out Oracle's astute assessment of the situation and his (?) excellent suggestion. (Hmmm . . . assessment . . . how appropriate)

http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?p=15511#post15511

 

[arlene22]

I second Oracle. Not only does it show the non-bullies that this was not about you trying to screw everyone and get something for free, but it will also infuriate the Bullies, who will now be the ONLY ones paying for your nice new slip. Poetic justice.

Good luck!

~Arlene

 

[JLB]

JLB - For some odd reason you obviously enjoy this nonsense.

I say tomayto, you say tomahto.

Martyr trying to make things better for all, or dangerous, self-center, sick-in-the-head, pot-stirring, troublemaking, agitator--not a team player?

Sometimes it's a fine line.

History does tell us that most martyrs were in the minority, seemed out-of-step, and had few supporters. The bulk of those around during their noble deeds considered them the latter.

 

[Kal]

Martyr trying to make things better for all, or dangerous, self-center, sick-in-the-head, pot-stirring, troublemaking, agitator--not a team player?

Nah, it's just a matter of quality of life. A person needs to focus on the good things, smell the roses etc. There's just not enough time to have to deal with terminal idiot neighbors day in and day out. At some point one needs to just move on....get outta Dodge.

Right now I'm planning a neighborhood Holiday Party to be held in my home. My plans keep going sideways as one neighbor after another wants to bring something special. The last message was she's bringing Champagne Punch for the crowd. Someone else wants to bring Smoked Copper River Salmon from Alaska. Isn't that a bit better than the daily Hatfield/McCoy warfare????

 

[JLB]

We got the Bill of Sale back today, to transfer the slip back to us.

As predicted, since those who have taken control of the dock are no longer talking to us or Mark, today he received the letter from them informing him that the Corps has approved their plan to rebuild, and asking for his $7700, up from the original $6800.

They did not send him a copy of the letter the Corps sent to them giving approval, so they are not divulging the terms of that approval, if there are any.

We will turn the Bill of Sale into the Corps, find out what's going on, since we can now talk to them, and then those who have taken over our dock can mail their stuff all over again.

Their refusal to accept the $6000 we offered at the beginning, which represented $90 extra for each of them, is now costing at least $9000. Of course, we are the ones being blamed for that.

 

[Kal]

Don't open any Christmas presents you find on the front porch with a tag:

"Thinking about you during this holiday season....from the McCoys"

 

[JLB]

Three weeks in Florida is sounding pretty nice.

We're gonna get around and head over to the Corps.

 

[JLB]

An agent emails me every new lake listing in the area. It is all computer generated, so as soon as anyone puts one on MLS, we see.

This morning there is 9 lakefront acres with a private dock and a cabin on Bull Shoals Lake, 30 miles east of Branson, for $25000 less than our private dock and 100-foot lot here, on Table Rock Lake 25 miles west of Branson.

Maybe worth driving over to. Maybe we could start a commune.