[2006] Another Encroachment Problem

[MarTN]

How much money did they want to re-do the dock? Could you send it to him and make this stop?

 

[somerville]

I found your post very interesting as I've always wondered how in the heck the surveyors ever find a point to start from that they can be sure of.
Sheila

For most of the US covered by the public land survey system established by the Northwest Ordinance of 1785, the surveyors set momuments at the corners of sections. When I was practicing law in Missouri, there was a requirement that for a survey to be admissible as evidence in court, it had to start at a government corner (monument). I believe the rule has been relaxed, but there are still standards for surveys that are used as evidence. Generally the surveyor's report that supports a mortgage loan does not meet these standards.

I don't believe that TN is part of the Northwest Ordinance survey system. Nonetheless, the legal description of your property should include some starting point. Hopefully, it is some permanent monument, and not some tree that died years ago.

 

[Gadabout]

I am a property lawyer. I must admit I didnt' read all the posts, too. My question is why did you buy this property without an attorney?

In some states (I think West Coast mostly) you almost never use a lawyer for ordinary residential property transactions. Just agent (if not a FSBO), and escrow company. Really. Both the agents and the escrow co. make you sign papers saying they aren't lawyers and if you need legal advice, get one, but seldom is a lawyer involved, unless it is a very expensive property.

 

[JLB]

How much money did they want to re-do the dock? Could you send it to him and make this stop?

$7500. No. The dock is just an excuse to do it. It will never stop. It's been going on, openly or just below the radar screen, for more than ten years. If it was not the dock it would be something else, or just because he likes to.

 

[Kal]

...It will never stop. It's been going on, openly or just below the radar screen, for more than ten years. ....

TEN YEARS!!! So please tell me why have you not sold and moved out long ago???

 

[JLB]

Catching up Again:

Things I've said already:

"It has never been addressed legally."
- - -
"They have used three other neighbors' properties against us and we have every reason to believe the special attention our next-door neighbor is now receiving, after being totally ignored by the hateful ones for three years, is to get him to try to do it also.

The question at hand is as simple as in order to protect the ownership of our entire property, do we or do we not notify the neighbor of his encroachment and that we have not relinquished our rights to our entire lot because of it."
- - -

I believe today is the day I will prepare the letter to the attorney. (Third attorney to look at the neighborhood problem now.) I believe Janie started her thread because she wanted a feel for what others would do in her situation, not to get internet legal advice. Over the last seven years I have never relied on TUG advice as a subsitute for legal advice, but I do like it for a feel as to how others feel.

In this case, since the bullies are getting others to use property rights against us, what I wanted was to find out if others would take action before the bullies get our next door neighbor to do the same, or wait until he does and then respond. And, should we bring up the encroachment as a way to discourage him from supporting the bullies?

The fact that his house is over our property line is not in dispute. The survey is not is dispute. Since we are all near US Army Corps of Engineers land, there are many prominent government monuments. The base of measurement for our subdivision is the GFTL on two of the four sides.

FWIW, when we moved in I measured all of our distances between pins and they were accurate according to the legal descriptions. I am a pin and tape guy. I have located and measured between hundreds of them over the years.

And yeah, property does close in the normal course of business here with encroachments, and it does not require an attorney to do that. Like I've said, it is not even noted in the paperwork.

 

[Htoo0]

JLB, Check out "Synchronized Christmas". Set it up to some loud rap, beam some of the spotlights at your annoying neighbors, put on some hearing protection and enjoy the holiday season!

 

[JLB]

TEN YEARS!!! So please tell me why have you not sold and moved out long ago???

I've always been able to take care of myself. I believe that's what people think when they first become aware of the problem. That's what those who try to stay neutral think, hoping that they will not be turned on. But he will not let anyone be neutral. he actually tells anyone not involved in the dispute that they have to choose, him or me!!!

We owned for four years before we decided to move to the lake. By that time we knew that he would be a problem. I wanted to take care of him legally, by a restraining order, when we moved, but Jenny felt that would escalate the problem, and he had been somewhat behaving since the neighbors at that time voted him out of power in July, 1999.

The two areas he had control over were the road, which was private, and the community dock. I told Jenny that if they became a problem I would take care of them.

When the road became a problem again two years ago, I stepped in, around him and his two compadres, and got it turned over to the County. The three of them made the dock a problem a year ago and we are now taking care of that. I had 26 neighbors to draw support from on the road, but there are only four, other than the bullies, in the dock. But we are more than holding our own in that endeavor.

We have the new dock we have been trying to get for the last two years and he does not.

There have been some chuckles during this ordeal. One of the bullies wives sent us a hateful email last April. She said stuff like if we are broke she was sure someone would lend us the money. She said her husband always has been such a sweet and capable person and she didn't understand why he could not do on the road what I did. She said Jenny and I are not team players. That was the stuff I can share here.

Actually, we are team players. Just not their team.

They are and have always been incompetent bunglers. They have cost their neighbors thousands of dollars by not attempting to turn the road over to the County years ago and by managing the dock poorly. All they ever want is what they want and they do not like to be confused by facts.

Added: Of course, we naively assumed that if he ever started doing criminal illegal things, which he has this year, it would just be a matter of us documenting it and the legal system would take care of him. Since his ex-cop co-conspirator has found a way to get him around that, we have moved forward with our plans to move forward.

I am, and always have been, a little Rosa Parks. We are not the problem and should not be the one to give up our paradise. Except for him it would be. His cohorts would not do this on their own. The problem will continue until someone takes a stand, and that is us.

At this point, after 10 years, we are mostly numb to him. When he hides in the shadows at night and shouts obscenities at us, we pretty much just laugh. He mouthed to me yesterday while I was burning leaves, and I just moved to where he could not see me.

 

[JLB]

JLB, Check out "Synchronized Christmas". Set it up to some loud rap, beam some of the spotlights at your annoying neighbors, put on some hearing protection and enjoy the holiday season!

Are you looking for a place at the lake?

 

[Kal]

We are not the problem and should not be the one to give up our paradise.....

Paradise?????

 

[JLB]

I'm heading to the post office with the letter to the attorney. We are asking him to address the innappropriate conduct of our neighbors and the encroachment.

Happy Thanksgiving.
- - - - -

Kal: Time is on our side. They are much older.

Pictures are available here:

http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?p=14215#post14215

 

[Htoo0]

lake place

Maybe in about 5 years when I retire. Hey, if they're still around?

 

[JLB]

Maybe in about 5 years when I retire. Hey, if they're still around?

If you come visit you will likely fall in love with the place. We have had many TUG guests who have. All have said they could handle whatever the neighbors dish out.

One of our recent guests actually did buy a place across the lake, after looking at the house between the head bully and one of his asst. bullies.

It was after dark when we came out of that house tour and the head bully was waiting for us in the road. But it did not seem to bother our guests. They just said they had a guy like that at their lake place in Minnesota and they could handle this one too.

 

[JLB]

MarTN

How's that $99 mower running?

 

[pegs099]

Hang in there

I know from experience that it's hard to keep up the fight all the time, when what you want is peace, but I admire you for keeping it up. Frankly, it inspires me in some things I have to handle. You should have a nice big TUG party and we can all come and make faces at him! Sometimes there is power in numbers. Also consider going to your town board with some of these problems. It's harder for people to deny things as you go over their heads.

 

[JLB]

Thanks.

One of the problems is that there is no town board because there is no town. Many of the things that most people take for granted, such as noise, public intoxication, public obsecenty, discharging firearms, etc., ordinances do not exist.

While driving today for Thanksgiving, in separate vehicles, I talked to Jenny by cell phone about settling with our neighbors. Let them have their dock if they will commit to a voluntary restraining and gag agreement, so that it truly will be the end to all the hatred.

But, if they want to continue doing this to us or to others, there is no reason to let them have the doick.

 

[bogey21]

If money is no object, my strategy would be to (1) force the issue on the encroachment and get it resolved hopefully with payment to you for that portion of your land which is being encroached upon (I don't think the courts would order the property torn down); (2) either rent or abandon the house (tearing down the house if practical) keeping taxes current; and (3) turn up the pressure, through the courts if necessary, re their stuff on your property and the junk on the portion of the easement that runs through your property. The idea is for you to maintain veto power over the dock (by not selling) which you believe is important to the bully. He (they) will eventually either die or have to come crawling to you. The downside to this approach is its cost and their abily to dump junk on your property and try to get the gov't to force you to remove it.

GEORGE

 

[bogey21]

I talked to Jenny by cell phone about settling with our neighbors. Let them have their dock if they will commit to a voluntary restraining and gag agreement, so that it truly will be the end to all the hatred.

Do you really believe that they would live up to any agreement?? You're too smart for that!!

GEORGE

 

[JLB]

Details get lost in explaining. The utility easement behind our house is on the property behind us, abutting our property. That is where the ex-cop/asst. bully lives. When we bought our house all that was behind us was a long-abandoned garage-type building. There is an old wire fence and it is on the other side of the easement, not on our property line. We and the others before us in our house have maintained that area behind our house for 14 years, until the three couples put the crap back there in May.

Although it amounts to a veto, we have not vetoed anything. We have not even been allowed a vote on anything, attend a meeting or hear what various plans were considered, so we could not have voted no. The bullies owned 6 of the 10 slips so assumed they could do whatever they wanted. What we have done is nothing, not given approval for the rebuilding plan.

But, the jist of it is the same. They want something from us (our approval), and we want nothing from them, except to be left alone.

The first attorney we talked said, "Why didn't they just buy you out?", his way of saying that normal people settle impasses with money. Regarding the head bully he said, "Why didn't you just hit him with a baseball bat way back when?!"

I know this will likely complicated it, but if I haven't said it, two months before they decided on their plan and ask for our $6818.70, I sent an email to everyone in the dock and told them I could get the dock rebuilt for $5600 apiece. But, if they wanted more bells and whistles we would not stand in their way, and we offered them $6000~~~just take our money and don't bother us, don't tell us who is doing the work or what the plan is.

They assigned the ex-cop to get our money. Again I offered the $6000 if they would just leave us alone, and he refused it. It would mean the others just paying $90 extra per slip. About a month ago they ask if we would consider giving our approval if they paid our entire share!

When I did the road there were a half dozen property owners who did not feel what we were asking per share was worth it to them. Rather than just blow them off, get everyone upset, and probably derail the entire project, I asked them to think awhile as to what it would be worth to them. Everyone I asked paid some money, and was part of the project. The head bully had never gotten money from more than 12 or 14 owners before, and had never collected more than $10,000 and I got money from 26 owners totalling $62,500 and a 700-foot easement from an absentee owner.

One owner had just filed bankruptcy, so I just planned the shares without them, but the three bullies have cussed them out ever since. Another was strapped at the time, so I took a promissory note from him. He sat down last week and wrote out checks totalling $3800 and I mailed them to all the contirbutors.

It just seems easier to do business with a smile on your face, leading people where you would like them to go, than standing face-to-face and cussing them out. None of us doing these these projects have any legal right to force any of our neighbors to do anything, so using threats and intimidation is not the way to go.

 

[JLB]

MarTN

How much money did they want to re-do the dock? Could you send it to him and make this stop?

Actually, there is a reason why this will not work.

The Corps does not care how docks go about conducting business. All they care about is that docks obey the rules of the Corps. For most actions (modifying a dock by adding slips or a swimdeck, changing the permitee, moving a dock, and a few more) the Corps only requires the approval of a majority of the slipowners. Rebuilding requires unanimous approval.

Years ago when the hateful bully first showed his hand to us, over a dock matter, when I notified the Corps about how he was treating us and others, the Corps said they do not get involved in matters like that. That was a private matter that needed to be addressed by other legal means (law enforcement or civil suit).

They have said the same thing now.

The three hateful ones (who now own a majority of the ten slips) have also drawn up a set of by laws and rules, ones that will obvious favor them, but they have refused to discuss them until they get the unanimous approval of the rebuilding plan. We asked them to put them on the table now, as part of the rebuilding plan, and subject them to a unanimous vote, but they just ignore us.

The Corps requires unanimous approval of the formation of dock associations and the permittee for new docks and for community docks in which all owners sell to all new owners, but not for existing docks.

We recently asked them that, and what we can do about the closed meetings and planning that continue behind our backs, and the Corps' answer was work that out amongst yourselves.

Once we get passed the unanimous vote on the rebuilding plan, the hateful ones can do whatever they want to whomever they want and we would be a ripe target for retaliation, one of the head bullies specialties. He loves getting even. This dispute is because I was able to get our road done when he did not. He divvies out and withholds favors based on loyalty.

Here's a couple of points in the bylaws and rules they are waiting to put into effect: A limitation on the number of guests a slipowner can have on a given day/weekend, with a signup sheet, and forbidding an owner to sell a slip to someone who does not live in our neighborhood.

You can imagine how we will be treated after we give our approval, if we ever do, since they will then not need us in any way.

 

[JLB]

I tend to repeat myself, so maybe I have said this before.

I tend to repeat myself, so maybe I have said this before. :biggrin:

When we saw that the three bullies intended to do whatever they wanted, imposing new rules, etc., we transferred our slip in the community dock to Jenny's brother. That was done last January. That way they could not prevent us from selling it to an outsider, one of the rules they planned, and, they would have no business with Jenny and me so would have to leave us alone.

Obviously, the second part didn't work.

They have continued to meet, actually more than 50 times since Mark became the owner of our slip, and have never invited him or told him what was discussed at any meetings.

About a month ago I had Mark email the Corps and ask what he could do about that. Their answer was to work that out amongst yourself.

Then we heard that they are planning on building a new dock and leaving Mark/us out of it. I won't go into the details of how unlikely that would be, just ignoring someone's private property and their rights to it, but I have been discussing the possibility with another seasonal neighbor across the road, who owns his own dock.

So, I had Mark send another email, this time to the head Ranger, asking if the Corps would allow them to do anything of that nature, abandoned the old dock or get a permit to build a new dock.

The answer came yesterday, from the Ranger responsible for our bank, and it says, "Please give me a call. I would like to speak to you about this dock. We may need to meet in person."

That's not as assuring as, "No they can't do that."

In the mean time it has been windy, cold and miserable. We have damage on our dock but I can't do anything until the weather gets better.

 

[JLB]

The Following Is Simply Unbelievable!!!!!

After years of telling us they will not get involved with disagreements on docks, abusive dockmasters, etc., including an email from them as recently as 11/1/05, saying, "Work it out amongst yourselves," the US Army Corps of Engineers Table Rock Office has given those who have taken over our community dock permission to rebuild it without the unanimous approval to all the slipowners. This is in direct violation of their own rules.

They said they did it because they are tired of messing with it.

Last April they ordered those who have taken over the dock to meet with us and work things out, and they never have. All they have done is harassed us, intimidated us, assaulted us and tried to force us to go along. No one ever even remotely said, "What will it take? Let's sit down and work it out."

They have met more than 50 times planning and plotting against us and have never informed us the results of their meetings.

By their action the Corps has awarded those who behaved badly and has sentenced us, our family and our guests to future hatred and abuse. Those who have taken over the dock can now pass whatever rules they want, including retaliation against us, putting liens on our slip and forbidding us from going on the dock, if they wish, and they will.

So, what would you do now?

 

[Dave M]

I would move.

 

[Gadabout]

After years of telling us they will not get involved with disagreements on docks, abusive dockmasters, etc., including an email from them as recently as 11/1/05, saying, "Work it out amongst yourselves," the US Army Corps of Engineers Table Rock Office has given those who have taken over our community dock permission to rebuild it without the unanimous approval to all the slipowners. This is in direct violation of their own rules.

They said they did it because they are tired of messing with it.

Last April they ordered those who have taken over the dock to meet with us and work things out, and they never have. All they have done is harassed us, intimidated us, assaulted us and tried to force us to go along. No one ever even remotely said, "What will it take? Let's sit down and work it out."

They have met more than 50 times planning and plotting against us and have never informed us the results of their meetings.

By their action the Corps has awarded those who behaved badly and has sentenced us, our family and our guests to future hatred and abuse. Those who have taken over the dock can now pass whatever rules they want, including retaliation against us, putting liens on our slip and forbidding us from going on the dock, if they wish, and they will.

Well, you just missed "sweeps" month on TV (November). I think February is the next one. You might want to see if you can discuss this with either a TV or print reporter if you really want to expose this to the light of day. And no, I'm not making fun here.

I have read all your postings (including your link on the other forum) and it reinforces my opinion that all PUDs and even informal neighborhood "associations" are completely worthless. This isn't one of those "perfect" types of places that Erik Estrada is pitching on TV again, is it?

Since it is a lake with a dock, I assume that means you could also have those little Seadoo things buzzing about on a regular basis (I know, wrong time of year right now)? You wouldn't have to launch them from the dock, would you? Maybe hold a nice charity event with lots of people....

Are you sure they can make up rules depriving you of what was originally in your deed/purchase agreement? I should think any good lawyer would have a field day with your neighbors doing what you say they will in your last statement, which is essentially taking money and not allowing you access. You may have to go to federal court over it, if it is that important to you, and only you can decide that.

 

[teepeeca]

contact officials

Have you tried filing a "formal" complaint with the Corp of Engineers in Washington DC? What about writing your congressman and senators?

Do any of the state's "higherarchy" want to get involved? Local and state media--TV/ radio/ etc.?

Tony