JeffV
TUG Lifetime Member
Life is too short. Sell out, move out and move on. In selling out, I would make sure he has to remove his house on your side of the line.
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[2006] Another Encroachment Problem
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Do you have to disclose neighbor problems when selling in your area? If so, and you don't, you may find yourself rescinding the sale pretty quickly.
I mentioned dementia because the behaviors sound like someone who may or may not have other problems. Like Janie, saying her neighbor called 5 times in the same day. That is not rational behavior--neither is what you have been describing.
Another option, providing the place is of interest, is to try to get other people to move in who are like-minded (strength in numbers), or even try to get some environmental group involved in the litigation (if these people are as bad as you say, they are probably polluting the lake as well).
I mentioned dementia because the behaviors sound like someone who may or may not have other problems. Like Janie, saying her neighbor called 5 times in the same day. That is not rational behavior--neither is what you have been describing.
Another option, providing the place is of interest, is to try to get other people to move in who are like-minded (strength in numbers), or even try to get some environmental group involved in the litigation (if these people are as bad as you say, they are probably polluting the lake as well).
Another thought.... You might want to contact the utility company that has the easement they are putting stuff on, and point out that the "attractive nuisance," that has been created may cause unneeded liability for them. Take a couple of pictures... maybe with small children playing in front of the stuff. Gee, you're just concerned with the kids in the neighborhood....
jkjsless
newbie
encroachment
JLB,
I haven't read all the posts it great detail but I have a couple of observations, and can only really comment on what I understand the law to be in Ontario, Canada as it pertains to adverse possession etc. Things may be quite different where you are; however,
Was a building permit and final approval from the city ever obtained for the building encroaching on your property. If not, that may be a mechanism to force the offending structure to be torn down.
When was this structure erected on your property and when was the survey you possess created. If there has been open uncontested occupation of your property by any owners of the offending structure for the time period legislated by your state for adverse possession you are likely out of luck.
The length of time the current unlikeable neighbour has owned the property is irrelevant. The issue is how long the structure has been there, the time starts running from then, and doesn't matter that there has been 2,3 or 10 intervening owners.
Did you have the survey when you purchased the property? If so, your title opinion or title insurance may include a caveat that you do not own the piece of property when the neighbours house sits.
My two cents is either to speak with a lawyer and find out what your legal options are or move. IMHO life is too short to put up with jerks like this. Why live with this constant irritant when moving solves your problem. Yes, the jerk may think he's won but so what ... Who knows you may even move into a new neighbourhood full of TUGGERs
JLB,
I haven't read all the posts it great detail but I have a couple of observations, and can only really comment on what I understand the law to be in Ontario, Canada as it pertains to adverse possession etc. Things may be quite different where you are; however,
Was a building permit and final approval from the city ever obtained for the building encroaching on your property. If not, that may be a mechanism to force the offending structure to be torn down.
When was this structure erected on your property and when was the survey you possess created. If there has been open uncontested occupation of your property by any owners of the offending structure for the time period legislated by your state for adverse possession you are likely out of luck.
The length of time the current unlikeable neighbour has owned the property is irrelevant. The issue is how long the structure has been there, the time starts running from then, and doesn't matter that there has been 2,3 or 10 intervening owners.
Did you have the survey when you purchased the property? If so, your title opinion or title insurance may include a caveat that you do not own the piece of property when the neighbours house sits.
My two cents is either to speak with a lawyer and find out what your legal options are or move. IMHO life is too short to put up with jerks like this. Why live with this constant irritant when moving solves your problem. Yes, the jerk may think he's won but so what ... Who knows you may even move into a new neighbourhood full of TUGGERs
JLB
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Catching up. Silver Dollar City was wonderful! 
Jeff: Selling and moving on and requiring our neighbor to remove his house from our property is contradictory.
Now he has blown all of his leaves into the ditch, and not burned them. We are the next culvert downstream, so that will mean a clogged culvert we will have to clear. He likely did this at the direction of the head bully. I'm serious.
Gadabout: My comments about the real estate industry turning it's back on this problem and the County not wanting to open this can of worms means, no, neighbor problems are not disclosed in our area. Only physcial things specifically affecting a parcel. The one main bully has been here for 16 years and we know of at least five (counting) us that he has caused to move on. I have talked to the larger brokers in our area about this problem and it is common, although ours is a little extreme.
No, they do not behave rationally, but there are many retired people who do not behave rationally. It is not all that uncommon when you have too much time on your hands and have been getting your way for many, many years. My mother was much the same. Most people called it stubborn or selfish.
Pegs: The utility company would have no interest or problem with the crap on the easement. They come in every 5 years or so and brushhog the entire 30 foot width, and then they are gone. The property owners behind us have talked about getting those wires buried. Then they would plant and maintain all the way to 10 feet from our back porch.
BTW, when we bought our place they were not back there. It was mostly just trees.
To complicate things there is an very old wire fence marking the easement and it is on their side of the easement, not ours.
jkjsless: The neighbor's house was there first. It was built over the property line when our lot was vacant. The owner of that house then built the house we live in, and moved into it. Then they moved away and sold it to the family we bought it from. I know this is hard to believe, but the man who built our house then moved back, into the house on the other side of our house! So he had owned all three houses in a row at different times. Even harder to believe is that he was the father of the head bully! He passed away a couple years ago, at 95.
As to your comment about open, uncontested use of our property, in order for adverse possession to be used in our state that use would have to have hostile, meaning without our approval (the way I understand it), and that is not the case.
The encroachment has never been an issue because we and the previous owners of our property have always had an amicable relationship with the previous owners of our neighbor's property. We and the previous owners of our property and the previous owners of our neighbor's property have all been targets of the bully. The current neighbor is not. The bully sucked up to him starting the day he moved in.
The survey done when we bought our propety is the one I have been referring to, the one showing his house encroaching.
The reason we have stood our ground, and not moved, is likely the same reason Rosa Parks would not give up her seat and move to the back of the bus.
We will move, but it will be on our own terms and we will improve ourselves when we do. In the thread over yonder I have discussed that we already bought another lot and dock down the road, very private and secluded.
We also know that once we move and are no longer conveniently available to be the bully's punching bag, they will eventually start on someone else. We have set the stage at the sheriff's office for that likelihood. The next in line will have an easier time resolving this than we have had, as we would have if the ones harassed before us had stood their ground a bit.
Jeff: Selling and moving on and requiring our neighbor to remove his house from our property is contradictory.
Now he has blown all of his leaves into the ditch, and not burned them. We are the next culvert downstream, so that will mean a clogged culvert we will have to clear. He likely did this at the direction of the head bully. I'm serious.
Gadabout: My comments about the real estate industry turning it's back on this problem and the County not wanting to open this can of worms means, no, neighbor problems are not disclosed in our area. Only physcial things specifically affecting a parcel. The one main bully has been here for 16 years and we know of at least five (counting) us that he has caused to move on. I have talked to the larger brokers in our area about this problem and it is common, although ours is a little extreme.
No, they do not behave rationally, but there are many retired people who do not behave rationally. It is not all that uncommon when you have too much time on your hands and have been getting your way for many, many years. My mother was much the same. Most people called it stubborn or selfish.
Pegs: The utility company would have no interest or problem with the crap on the easement. They come in every 5 years or so and brushhog the entire 30 foot width, and then they are gone. The property owners behind us have talked about getting those wires buried. Then they would plant and maintain all the way to 10 feet from our back porch.
BTW, when we bought our place they were not back there. It was mostly just trees.
To complicate things there is an very old wire fence marking the easement and it is on their side of the easement, not ours.
jkjsless: The neighbor's house was there first. It was built over the property line when our lot was vacant. The owner of that house then built the house we live in, and moved into it. Then they moved away and sold it to the family we bought it from. I know this is hard to believe, but the man who built our house then moved back, into the house on the other side of our house! So he had owned all three houses in a row at different times. Even harder to believe is that he was the father of the head bully! He passed away a couple years ago, at 95.
As to your comment about open, uncontested use of our property, in order for adverse possession to be used in our state that use would have to have hostile, meaning without our approval (the way I understand it), and that is not the case.
The encroachment has never been an issue because we and the previous owners of our property have always had an amicable relationship with the previous owners of our neighbor's property. We and the previous owners of our property and the previous owners of our neighbor's property have all been targets of the bully. The current neighbor is not. The bully sucked up to him starting the day he moved in.
The survey done when we bought our propety is the one I have been referring to, the one showing his house encroaching.
The reason we have stood our ground, and not moved, is likely the same reason Rosa Parks would not give up her seat and move to the back of the bus.
We will move, but it will be on our own terms and we will improve ourselves when we do. In the thread over yonder I have discussed that we already bought another lot and dock down the road, very private and secluded.
We also know that once we move and are no longer conveniently available to be the bully's punching bag, they will eventually start on someone else. We have set the stage at the sheriff's office for that likelihood. The next in line will have an easier time resolving this than we have had, as we would have if the ones harassed before us had stood their ground a bit.
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chap7
Banned
JLB said:
I'm sure you will.
Edited to add smiley, which of course now changes the whole tone of my post.
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Dave M
TUG Lifetime Member
Sounds like Hatfields versus McCoys. Both sides claim they are right and outsiders (e.g., the police) think both sides are behaving like children.
Because this is a legal issue among neighbors, it would appear as though your choices are relatively straightforward, Jim:
You can argue all you want that the police or district attorney should take a more active role in helping you. However, since they have conflicting reports and can't (or won't) decide who is telling the truth, they will almost certainly continue to believe you are a nuisance and won't help you.
Also, it would not surprise me at all to have you report here some day that your home burned down and you are sure it was arson, although the police can't prove who did it. Thus, be sure that your homeowner's insurance is up do date for replacement cost, including improvements. Also be sure that any valuables are adequately protected or moved to a safe location.
Because this is a legal issue among neighbors, it would appear as though your choices are relatively straightforward, Jim:
- Sell your home and move somewhere else.
- Accept the situation and find a way to enjoy life in your neighborhood.
- Continue to fight as you have been, realizing that the harassment is almost certain to continue indefinitely, perhaps with someone eventually getting injured or worse.
- Spend the $2,500, plus what is almost certain to be more than that, to have a lawyer pursue this through the legal system. However, given the length of time your neighbor’s home has been on your property, I don’t like your chances for winning that part of the overall problem.
You can argue all you want that the police or district attorney should take a more active role in helping you. However, since they have conflicting reports and can't (or won't) decide who is telling the truth, they will almost certainly continue to believe you are a nuisance and won't help you.
Also, it would not surprise me at all to have you report here some day that your home burned down and you are sure it was arson, although the police can't prove who did it. Thus, be sure that your homeowner's insurance is up do date for replacement cost, including improvements. Also be sure that any valuables are adequately protected or moved to a safe location.
chap7
Banned
Jestjoan said:
Since your guess can be interpreted in more than one way, I'm going to add the "ART" for you.
Jim's much too classy a guy to mean anything else. JLB
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Originally Posted by JLB
We also know that once we move and are no longer conveniently vailable to be the bully's punching bag, WE will eventually start on someone else.
And since you are too classy a guy I am assuming your lack of a smilie was unintentional.
Of course I meant he will eventually start on someone else.
I say that because before they had us to focus on they were not happy with each other, both of the two cohort couples wanting to distance themselves from the pushy bully guy. He is that way in eveything and they were just tired of it.
We also know that once we move and are no longer conveniently vailable to be the bully's punching bag, WE will eventually start on someone else.
chap7 said:
And since you are too classy a guy I am assuming your lack of a smilie was unintentional.
Of course I meant he will eventually start on someone else.
I say that because before they had us to focus on they were not happy with each other, both of the two cohort couples wanting to distance themselves from the pushy bully guy. He is that way in eveything and they were just tired of it.
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chap7
Banned
Now that's strange. I distinctly remember clicking on that winking icon.
JLB
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Dave's comments are a little extreme.
It is a bad situation, but they do know where to draw the line. They know that what the Prosecutor is waiting for is blood or property damage, and they are smart enough not to cross that line.
They keep tempting me into beating the crap out of the head bully, which would be a pleasure, but I will never touch him. That burns them up.
They also know that because we did not just turn and run like the others, but brought the harassment out into the open for the first time, they are limited in what they can get away with. They know everyone in the County that matters is watching our neighborhood.
We are also passed arguing that the Prosecutor should do something based on the information he has. If I were him I would not do anything either. We are resigned that the hateful ones have played a good chess game, coercing lies in their favor. They will have to account for that someday and that is not for me to judge.
But, that gains them nothing, other than keeping them out of jail. In doing so they have lost sight of what it was they wanted to gain~~~a rebuilt dock~~~and they are now further from that.
All of them know that they cannot now do this anyone else ever again. Well, maybe they don't know that, but they can't. For the first time all of the newer owners are aware of the problem. Up until now everyone that has been bullied has tippy-toed around the problem or just left.
It will drive the head bully crazy knowing that he cannot turn on any of those who have supported him. He simply cannot do that, he has to be so controlling.
It is a bad situation, but they do know where to draw the line. They know that what the Prosecutor is waiting for is blood or property damage, and they are smart enough not to cross that line.
They keep tempting me into beating the crap out of the head bully, which would be a pleasure, but I will never touch him. That burns them up.
They also know that because we did not just turn and run like the others, but brought the harassment out into the open for the first time, they are limited in what they can get away with. They know everyone in the County that matters is watching our neighborhood.
We are also passed arguing that the Prosecutor should do something based on the information he has. If I were him I would not do anything either. We are resigned that the hateful ones have played a good chess game, coercing lies in their favor. They will have to account for that someday and that is not for me to judge.
But, that gains them nothing, other than keeping them out of jail. In doing so they have lost sight of what it was they wanted to gain~~~a rebuilt dock~~~and they are now further from that.
All of them know that they cannot now do this anyone else ever again. Well, maybe they don't know that, but they can't. For the first time all of the newer owners are aware of the problem. Up until now everyone that has been bullied has tippy-toed around the problem or just left.
It will drive the head bully crazy knowing that he cannot turn on any of those who have supported him. He simply cannot do that, he has to be so controlling.
John Cummings
TUG Lifetime Member
Dave M said:
I agree with you 100%.
Kal
TUG Member
I would just focus on who is the current legal owner of the questionable property. Get a qualified lawyer and get the question solved. You'll eventually have to face this when you sell the property so there's no time like the present. Once resolved you can properly sell your land without endless delays in the sale.
SELL OUT AND MOVE! Forget about grudges and open hostility. When the neighbors don't like YOU and you don't like the neighbors it's time to move on. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong. Life is way to short unless you actually enjoy this type of lifestyle.
SELL OUT AND MOVE! Forget about grudges and open hostility. When the neighbors don't like YOU and you don't like the neighbors it's time to move on. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong. Life is way to short unless you actually enjoy this type of lifestyle.
JLB
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jkjsless said:
No it doesn't. It has never been addressed legally.
- - - - - -
The neighborhood problem is a distraction to the question at hand because this neighbor is under the control of the head bully and the bully and his cohorts are using property rights in their campaign against us. They have used three other neighbors' properties against us and we have every reason to believe the special attention our next-door neighbor is now receiving, after being totally ignored by the hateful ones for three years, is to get him to try to do it also.
The question at hand is as simple as in order to protect the ownership of our entire property, do we or do we not notify the neighbor of his encroachment and that we have not relinquished our rights to our entire lot because of it.
Do I continue to mow to the pins or not, even if that means mowing up to his house and then going around it.
Kal
TUG Member
Just like doing your own dental work, take a vote from us qualified Tuggers and that'll save you from having to rely on some guy "practicing" law.
Dave M
TUG Lifetime Member
Jim --
You're really looking for free legal help from us. We don't have enough information or real knowledge about the laws of your state and your local area to make a definitive recommendation. Even if we did have that info, we aren't attorneys. Even if we were attorneys, we don't practice in your state.
That's why you have received advice from a number of people here to get professional legal help. If you choose not to do that, as it appears you have chosen, I think you're really on your own with the choices I listed above.
You're really looking for free legal help from us. We don't have enough information or real knowledge about the laws of your state and your local area to make a definitive recommendation. Even if we did have that info, we aren't attorneys. Even if we were attorneys, we don't practice in your state.
That's why you have received advice from a number of people here to get professional legal help. If you choose not to do that, as it appears you have chosen, I think you're really on your own with the choices I listed above.
Aldo
newbie
You've gotten some good advice hear regarding the legal concept of adverse possession, particularly with regards to using the concept of user license to break the continuity of the possession.
I'd ask, what makes you so sure of your interpretation of the boundary?
I'm a Licensed Land Surveyor. In my area, many of the subvisions around Lakes were neverly correctly done in the first place, and can be VERY expensive to do correctly. Lake lots in the Adirondakes are usually OK, but those in the southern part of the state are typically really bad. As an extreme example, there is one lake nearby in which doing any one lot (from scratch) would involve a complete resurvey of the original farm and practically every lot on it. This summer I gave an estimate to do one lot...my estimate was 20K to 30K.
The job was awarded for a price of 500 dollars.
Unfortunately, my profession is FULL of shady practicioners and ripoff artists, who instead of doing a proper job, will come out, take a look around, and set some pins...and the client is happy and thinks they have saved a lot of money.
Such a survey is NOT going to stand up in court if opposed by a throughly researched job.
I'm not saying that this is the case in your particular situation, but I've seen it OVER and OVER again.
I'd ask, what makes you so sure of your interpretation of the boundary?
I'm a Licensed Land Surveyor. In my area, many of the subvisions around Lakes were neverly correctly done in the first place, and can be VERY expensive to do correctly. Lake lots in the Adirondakes are usually OK, but those in the southern part of the state are typically really bad. As an extreme example, there is one lake nearby in which doing any one lot (from scratch) would involve a complete resurvey of the original farm and practically every lot on it. This summer I gave an estimate to do one lot...my estimate was 20K to 30K.
The job was awarded for a price of 500 dollars.
Unfortunately, my profession is FULL of shady practicioners and ripoff artists, who instead of doing a proper job, will come out, take a look around, and set some pins...and the client is happy and thinks they have saved a lot of money.
Such a survey is NOT going to stand up in court if opposed by a throughly researched job.
I'm not saying that this is the case in your particular situation, but I've seen it OVER and OVER again.
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Aldo,
I found your post very interesting as I've always wondered how in the heck the surveyors ever find a point to start from that they can be sure of.
We live on a 50 acre farm that my father purchased many years ago. There is one corner tree that is still standing, so I feel good about that point. The rest of it, I'm not so sure of. About 30 years ago, at least the back line was surveyed because my folks gave me 5 acres. I don't think the whole farm was done.
I've considered having it surveyed just to confirm the acreage for real estate tax purposes. I contend that the county is charging me for at least five extra acres because they never deducted the five acres I was given from the total. Then when I combined the two pieces back together, they raised the total by five acres. They say only a survey would change it. So far, I've thought it was cheaper to just pay the extra taxes than to pay for the survey.
Another issue relates to the road. My dad always said that they expanded the road on our side quite a bit when I was a child and never to let them do it on that side again. I guess any claim we would have had if they didn't do it properly (which I'm sure they probably didn't) would already be lost because of the adverse possession rules. I foresee the road being widened again soon because of the development of property on the other side of the ridge from us, and I really don't want to lose any more land on my side.
There are also some interesting issues regarding the land behind me that this has reminded me of. I guess we all need to find a good lawyer.
Sheila
I found your post very interesting as I've always wondered how in the heck the surveyors ever find a point to start from that they can be sure of.
We live on a 50 acre farm that my father purchased many years ago. There is one corner tree that is still standing, so I feel good about that point. The rest of it, I'm not so sure of. About 30 years ago, at least the back line was surveyed because my folks gave me 5 acres. I don't think the whole farm was done.
I've considered having it surveyed just to confirm the acreage for real estate tax purposes. I contend that the county is charging me for at least five extra acres because they never deducted the five acres I was given from the total. Then when I combined the two pieces back together, they raised the total by five acres. They say only a survey would change it. So far, I've thought it was cheaper to just pay the extra taxes than to pay for the survey.
Another issue relates to the road. My dad always said that they expanded the road on our side quite a bit when I was a child and never to let them do it on that side again. I guess any claim we would have had if they didn't do it properly (which I'm sure they probably didn't) would already be lost because of the adverse possession rules. I foresee the road being widened again soon because of the development of property on the other side of the ridge from us, and I really don't want to lose any more land on my side.
There are also some interesting issues regarding the land behind me that this has reminded me of. I guess we all need to find a good lawyer.
Sheila
Kal
TUG Member
JLB said:
The best thing you have going for you is the years and years of you paying property taxes on that 10 foot section. But wait, you DID pay those taxes didn't you??? If not, best to think about refunding the person who did make those payments for "your land".
teachingmyown
TUG Lifetime Member
JLB said:
Been there, but in Tennessee, not in your state. What would I do? Ask myself exactly how important the issue is to me. There is no question that it is important, or that there is a grievance. The question is, is it important enough to warrant the headache involved in endeavoring to set it straight? That headache will involve some expense (maybe more than "some") and a good bit of time, and energy, and maybe some hard feelings among neighbors. If it means enough to you, then you must go to an attorney, get official legal advice and then proceed accordingly. It if doesn't, then resign yourself to the fact that life isn't guaranteed to be fair and this problem won't go away, but that's ok.
In our case, the disputed property line was on a weekend lake lot which had been in the family for years and had been deeded to my mom and her brothers in joint ownership. The neighbor first put his porch a few inches over the line, then proceeded to park his cars over the line and then --literally-- crossed the line when he added an addition that came over an amount my mom considered "significant". It took multiple surveyors, several lawyers and two or three years and multiple court dates to get the judgment against the neighbor and then another year or so waiting for the time limits and appeals to run their course before a final agreement was reached. For my mom it was worth it simply because of the principle involved. That's a decision you'll have to decide yourself.
Jimster
TUG Member
Duh
I am a property lawyer. I must admit I didnt' read all the posts, too. My question is why did you buy this property without an attorney? I am assuming you did not have one. If you did, why didn't he catch this and advise you accordingly? Also realize two things: 1. If you claim against him, he probably has title insurance and thus his out of pocket cost may not be as great as expected. 2. A court of equity is more likely to force a sale of the property ( you to him at fair market value) than to cause the house to be torn down. Definitely contact a lawyer in your state that specializes in property law BEFORE you do anything you'll be sorry about. After you solve the problem, MOVE! Who needs the agravation of living in such a crazy neighborhood. The most outrageous thing we do in my neighborhood is drink to much at the block party.
I am a property lawyer. I must admit I didnt' read all the posts, too. My question is why did you buy this property without an attorney? I am assuming you did not have one. If you did, why didn't he catch this and advise you accordingly? Also realize two things: 1. If you claim against him, he probably has title insurance and thus his out of pocket cost may not be as great as expected. 2. A court of equity is more likely to force a sale of the property ( you to him at fair market value) than to cause the house to be torn down. Definitely contact a lawyer in your state that specializes in property law BEFORE you do anything you'll be sorry about. After you solve the problem, MOVE! Who needs the agravation of living in such a crazy neighborhood. The most outrageous thing we do in my neighborhood is drink to much at the block party.
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Getting advice on how to handle your particular problem for your particular location (township, county, state et....) is iffy at best. You really need to set up an appointment with an attorny to see what your real options are. Everything else is pure speculation.
As I see it, part of the price your paying is worrying about this mess and trying to figure it out on your own. An attorny will cost you a few $$ for the initial interview but you will at least know pretty well, if not exactly, where you really stand in this matter. Only then will you be able to make an informed decision and act upon it.
As I see it, part of the price your paying is worrying about this mess and trying to figure it out on your own. An attorny will cost you a few $$ for the initial interview but you will at least know pretty well, if not exactly, where you really stand in this matter. Only then will you be able to make an informed decision and act upon it.
Dave M
TUG Lifetime Member
There seems to be a common theme in the advice you are getting, Jim...