Pre nup question

[Jestjoan]

Younger DD just called to say she might get married in Vegas this weekend.

She lives in AZ, a community property state. I don't know if it makes any difference.

Fiance' is divorced with two kids. DD needs pre nup and she found something online that said she has to protect her assets from ex wife, too.

She owns a house.

I thought that I saw some information previously, that this legal stuff had to be done in advance not right near the wedding time. Does anyone know?

TIA

 

[Lawlar]

Good time to call attorneys

She lives in AZ, a community property state. I don't know if it makes any difference.

Fiance' is divorced with two kids. DD needs pre nup and she found something online that said she has to protect her assets from ex wife, too.

She owns a house.

I thought that I saw some information previously, that this legal stuff had to be done in advance not right near the wedding time. Does anyone know?

TIA

Its time to call in the attorneys (I hate attorneys - even though I am an attorney - but this is really when you absolutely have to have an attorney).

Prenuptial agreements are frequently unenforecable unless each party is represented by an attorney. Otherwise, the unhappy spouse will claim that he or she didn't understand the agreement and that there was coercion. These agreements are subject to lots of litigation and judge's are rarely inclined to enforce them unless they were prepared with both sides being represented by counsel.

If the parties want to waive spousal support, it is even more important to have lawyers involved because there are a lot of hurdles to get over before a spousal waiver can be enforced.

The agreement has to be executed before the marriage (preferably not hours before).

So - sadly - I have to say call in the sharks for your DD's protection (especially if she owns a home).

 

[Jestjoan]

Thanks a million

Thanks, you were the one I was hoping to hear from. (*NEASWAP) I know you are a lawyer and previously lived in AZ. Didn't know you had moved to a beautiful new place.

I'll be printing out your post for her. I've told her and told her to take care of it. I can just scream.

They want to get him on her healh plan because his new job has a 90 day waiting period. The kids were insured with him not ex. The COBRA is really expensive for them.

Thank you so much for the helpful reply.

*Never end a sentence with a preposition, I know.

 

[DebBrown]

They want to get him on her healh plan because his new job has a 90 day waiting period. The kids were insured with him not ex. The COBRA is really expensive for them.

Man, Considering your daughter's concerns, I don't think she'd be smart to rush into a marriage just to save the COBRA payments. That's pretty short-sighted, eh?

Does she even know if she can add the new DH and kids to her insurance right away?

Deb

 

[Conan]

Besides each having an attorney, they should also disclose what assets each currently owns, on schedules attached to the agreement (in some states this is absolutely required, and even if not required it demonstrates that each knew the value of the claims they were giving up).

So you can do some advance work by helping her make a list of what she owns, not forgetting savings bonds and gift accounts she may have accumulated.

 

[LLW]

Thanks, you were the one I was hoping to hear from. (*NEASWAP) I know you are a lawyer and previously lived in AZ. Didn't know you had moved to a beautiful new place.

I'll be printing out your post for her. I've told her and told her to take care of it. I can just scream.

They want to get him on her healh plan because his new job has a 90 day waiting period. The kids were insured with him not ex. The COBRA is really expensive for them.

Thank you so much for the helpful reply.

*Never end a sentence with a preposition, I know.

Even if the COBRA payment is $1,000 (I would be surprised if it costs that much) a month, that's only $3,000 for 3 months, very immaterial compared to the hundreds of thousands of $$$$ each of them may have in assets that need to be clearly delineated in a pre-nup. She needs to protect the house, and he needs to protect the kids. They both should have strong reasons to do it right.

 

[Jestjoan]

DH called DD and said we'd pay the COBRA. DD knows she will not be getting the wedding money from us if there isn't a prenup.

They were supposed to go to Vegas this weekend with another couple so they made reservations. Other couple said, oh, sorry, we're going to Mexico instead. Reservations are non refundable!

They can scout out locations this weekend.

Thanks everyone for all your help.

 

[Lawlar]

Glad to Help

Thanks, you were the one I was hoping to hear from. (*NEASWAP) I know you are a lawyer and previously lived in AZ. Didn't know you had moved to a beautiful new place.

*Never end a sentence with a preposition, I know.

I'm glad someone reads my posts. I do get a little anti-TS sometimes (Dave M probably wants to ban me).

However, I never lived in AZ (I did date a girl who lived in Phoenix - that was expensive - and there are grandkids in AZ). I am a native of Los Angeles (Woodland Hills). My wife dragged me up to Santa Barbara 3 years ago. It is a lovely place to retire.

Unfortunately, when it comes to love, good advice is often pushed aside in favor of the warm fuzzy feelings. I made that mistake more than once myself and I gave up trying to prevent clients from making foolish choices after I advised them against it (actually, that was to my profit because they had to pay me to get them out of the mess!).

I don't miss the law. Its nice to no longer be part of an adversary system.

Peace.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Preposition, Shmeppazzishen. (I.E., Arrant Pedantry.)

Never end a sentence with a preposition, I know.

Winston Churchill had his own ideas about that, & he knew how to write OK -- better than OK.

Basically, just end your sentences any way you like.

If somebody doesn't care for your sentences because of the parts of speech at the ends, just tell'm to go read somebody else's sentences that they like better. Sheesh.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Jestjoan]

Sorry, Lawler, for my mistake. I must be mixed up as usual.

 

[Eric in McLean]

DH called DD and said we'd pay the COBRA. DD knows she will not be getting the wedding money from us if there isn't a prenup.

Doesn't sound like you're too fond of your potential son-in-law. I wouldn't be supplementing his and his children's medical care. He's a big boy, he ought to be able to take care of himself.

 

[geekette]

Doesn't sound like you're too fond of your potential son-in-law. I wouldn't be supplementing his and his children's medical care. He's a big boy, he ought to be able to take care of himself.

Yeah, I don't understand this at all. Why would you pay med and throw in "wedding money"???

If they are marrying This Weekend (Suddenly! even if engaged for some time), that kind of indicates JOP, not Big Lavish Wedding. What "wedding money" is being used as leverage for a pre-nup?

I know you asked about pre-nups and we're getting off course, but I think I'm missing something here. Is your daughter grown? Presumably she is grown enuf to take on 2 kids that are not hers. If so, these are her problems to deal with - you've done all you can do by telling her she needs a pre-nup. Bribing her to do so is not in her best interest. Or yours.

 

[Lawlar]

Parents Should Protect Assets By Using Trusts

If I may go a bit off topic, I would suggest that parents be certain that they maintain their assets in a trust.

When we pass away our children inherit our assets as their separate property. Technically, this means that the children get to keep the assets if they go through a divorce with their spouses. Unfortunately, children who inherit often put their spouses on title to the inherited assets. The spouses then can spend and claim part of the inheritance.

One way to prevent this is to keep your assets in a living trust that provides that upon your passing your assets will remain in trust for the benefit of your children. For example, you can leave your family home in your trust until your child reaches an age you choose (like 60), or not at all – passing to your grandchildren upon your child’s death. The advantage of such a trust is that it keeps your children’s spouses from acquiring an interest in your assets, it keeps your children from wasting the assets on frivolous choices, and it preserves the assets for the next generation. Also, as long as your assets remain in your trust, your children’s creditors can’t reach the assets (so if your children ever have financial problems the assets held in trust are safe).

TUGGERS might consider keeping their TSs in trust for the benefit of their children. The trust can pay the yearly maintenance fees. The trustee can determine which children get to vacation at the TS on particular years.

There is nothing wrong with parents doing everything they reasonably can to protect their children. Even a little bribery now and then has its place.

 

[Bill4728]

If I may go a bit off topic, I would suggest that parents be certain that they maintain their assets in a trust.

When we pass away our children inherit our assets as their separate property. Technically, this means that the children get to keep the assets if they go through a divorce with their spouses. Unfortunately, children who inherit often put their spouses on title to the inherited assets. The spouses then can spend and claim part of the inheritance.

One way to prevent this is to keep your assets in a living trust that provides that upon your passing your assets will remain in trust for the benefit of your children. For example, you can leave your family home in your trust until your child reaches an age you choose (like 60), or not at all – passing to your grandchildren upon your child’s death. The advantage of such a trust is that it keeps your children’s spouses from acquiring an interest in your assets, it keeps your children from wasting the assets on frivolous choices, and it preserves the assets for the next generation. Also, as long as your assets remain in your trust, your children’s creditors can’t reach the assets (so if your children ever have financial problems the assets held in trust are safe).

TUGGERS might consider keeping their TSs in trust for the benefit of their children. The trust can pay the yearly maintenance fees. The trustee can determine which children get to vacation at the TS on particular years.

There is nothing wrong with parents doing everything they reasonably can to protect their children. Even a little bribery now and then has its place.

There are a couple of things about trusts which you should also know. The taxes on most trusts are very high. When my parents died, we received a bunch of money in a trust for the grand kids college. Even though it was invested wisely, the taxes ate up almost all of the growth. That is something you need to ask a lawyer & an accountant before you commit your estate to a trust.

 

[Lawlar]

Taxes?

There are a couple of things about trusts which you should also know. The taxes on most trusts are very high. When my parents died, we received a bunch of money in a trust for the grand kids college. Even though it was invested wisely, the taxes ate up almost all of the growth. That is something you need to ask a lawyer & an accountant before you commit your estate to a trust.

It is my understanding that there is no difference, tax wise, if you hold your assets in your own names or in your own trust. There can also be ways to reduce estate taxes by using a trust.

I am not a tax lawyer or accountant. So I agree that it is best to consult with a good accountant or tax lawyer on this issue.

 

[Jestjoan]

Eric, I do not know future son in law. Never met him. I don't know his finances but I'd guess they aren't good.

It is just my experience with #1DD's ex that scares me. She got to pay him $65,000, part cash and some in a retirement account. I knew the marriage wouldn't last......She makes a lot of money. DD#2 does not.

She is very grown. I told her that she would get the same amount of money for a wedding as we gave her sister.

We're trying to give them some time to get to the lawyers instead of marrying this weekend.

That's all she wrote.

 

[spirits]

Advise from a realtor

When my DS bought his first home that we helped him purchase, a realtor told us what he did in that situation. Put his name on the lease with the son. Would never utilize it but then if a live in relationship goes sour they do not get access to the whole house. There was more to it then that but a good lawyer can advise you better. We never used that advice because my son trusted his girlfriend

 

[Zac495]

In my prenup (I remarried at 40), my inheritance is protected as well. Get a good lawyer if there's real money at stake!!! And yes, he needs to have a real lawyer, too. If son-in-law can't afford one, just pay for that for him. Stinks - but you're protecting big money.

All this said - Good luck to your daughter. Hopefully the pre-nup will gather dust.

 

[Jestjoan]

Thanks all

Thanks for all your opinions and suggestions. I know they are meant to be helpful. There were some assumptions made by posters that were way off. (OK, Alan I ended a sentence with a preposition for you. Glad you spell Alan correctly, just like DH.) I didn't mean to be short...........

DD was about to go on fiance's health insurance after she was downsized. She was hired back by the same company for different position two weeks later. S-I-L to be then got downsized so it was a darn good thing she hadn't gone on his plan. They have been hit pretty hard by this economy.

 

[pwrshift]

If you have concerns about protecting your estate in any way, I suggest you invest a few dollars and get the book, Beyond The Grave.

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Grave-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214525158&sr=8-1

I spent my whole life building my estate and it concerns me that my heirs might not have the same respect for the capital. As a result I met with tax accountants as well as legal specialists, and the end result was setting up individual Testamentary Trusts with certain restrictions on using their portion of the estate for 'marital' assets like buying a house, boat, cottage, etc. For instance, my kids can use funds to buy a house but they have to legally 'borrow' it from their trust and it has to be paid back when and if the house is ever sold for whatever reason. Because of grandchildren concerns, the estate must pay for the life insurance programs I've set up and pay now on their behalf up to the point where the dividends pay for the policies.

Can't believe it took me close to 3 years to get it all properly set up as each time we met, one consultant would say something that required more thought before signing documents, etc. etc. And at $400 an hour these guys can be expensive.

Part of the decision problem is that my kids aren't children anymore and by the time I pass on they may be near retirement age themselves - so at what point can you 'trust' them with your estate? It is not an easy process .. and once done you may find you want to refine it again and again. At the same time, I'm amazed how many quite wealthy people I know that don't care what their kids do with their estate when the time comes.

Brian

 

[AwayWeGo]

Alan, Shmallon.

Glad you spell Alan correctly, just like DH.

Alan.

Allan.

Allen.

Alain.

Allyn.

Etc.

Just variations on a theme.

Mox nix.

For a while when I was young, I thought of Alan as a dorky name -- tried (unsuccessfully) for a year or so to change to Al. Unfortunately, it turned out Al was not much improvement when it came to dorky -- you know, Big Al The Kiddies' Pal. Maybe the trouble was with the person rather than with the name, I don't know. Now at my advanced age I am OK with the name my mother gave me. I mean, over enough time people can get used to anything. Right?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[arlene22]

OK, Alan I ended a sentence with a preposition for you.

As my friend, Joe, the English professor would say, "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I shall not put!"

Good luck to your daughter. I hope she takes her time with this huge decision.

 

[Jestjoan]

Thanks, Arlene.

The wedding will not be taking place this weekend. DD seemed disappointed. She has no one to blame but herself. I've been telling her for months to take care of the prenup.

 

[Eric in McLean]

Unfortunately I don't know anything about community property. In VA (non-community property state), gifts and inheritances are normally not marital property subject to division. Property acquired prior to marriage is also not marital property. What's earned during the marriage is marital property. For most people a pre-nup isn't required to protect property. The primary purpose of a pre-nup is to limit alimony.

 

[Twinkstarr]

If you have concerns about protecting your estate in any way, I suggest you invest a few dollars and get the book, Beyond The Grave.

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Grave-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214525158&sr=8-1

I spent my whole life building my estate and it concerns me that my heirs might not have the same respect for the capital. As a result I met with tax accountants as well as legal specialists, and the end result was setting up individual Testamentary Trusts with certain restrictions on using their portion of the estate for 'marital' assets like buying a house, boat, cottage, etc. For instance, my kids can use funds to buy a house but they have to legally 'borrow' it from their trust and it has to be paid back when and if the house is ever sold for whatever reason. Because of grandchildren concerns, the estate must pay for the life insurance programs I've set up and pay now on their behalf up to the point where the dividends pay for the policies.

Can't believe it took me close to 3 years to get it all properly set up as each time we met, one consultant would say something that required more thought before signing documents, etc. etc. And at $400 an hour these guys can be expensive.

Part of the decision problem is that my kids aren't children anymore and by the time I pass on they may be near retirement age themselves - so at what point can you 'trust' them with your estate? It is not an easy process .. and once done you may find you want to refine it again and again. At the same time, I'm amazed how many quite wealthy people I know that don't care what their kids do with their estate when the time comes.

Brian

If your name wasn't Brian, I would swear you were my estate lawyer.