• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Marriott Vacations Worldwide Investor Day Presentation-October 4

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
Again, I am a poor resale owner so I do not have a dog in this fight. But my expectation is for the Vistana owners and the MVC owners to have similar status based on the number of points they own in the common currency even if their points come solely from converting their Staroptions. The clear clue IMO is that they are talking about increasing the number of DC points needed for each level because of the Vistana integration so clearly they are expecting the Vistana ownership to count. Of course they can also grandfather some MVC owners that would no longer qualify but that does not change the big picture of equal rights, again IMO
One thing's for certain, it's going to be interesting the next year or 2. And we'll have other opportunities to have this discussion I'm sure. But I do expect it to be Marriott Trust/DC centric no matter the specifics. And there's no way to make an omelet without scrambling a few eggs so I'm sure some will be upset just like some were upset with the Trust/DC system when it rolled out and frankly, I think some still are.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
One thing's for certain, it's going to be interesting the next year or 2. And we'll have other opportunities to have this discussion I'm sure. But I do expect it to be Marriott Trust/DC centric no matter the specifics. And there's no way to make an omelet without scrambling a few eggs so I'm sure some will be upset just like some were upset with the Trust/DC system when it rolled out and frankly, I think some still are.
One thing's for certain, it's going to be interesting the next year or 2. And we'll have other opportunities to have this discussion I'm sure. But I do expect it to be Marriott Trust/DC centric no matter the specifics. And there's no way to make an omelet without scrambling a few eggs so I'm sure some will be upset just like some were upset with the Trust/DC system when it rolled out and frankly, I think some still are.

they brag that 90% of the owners are happy so it must mean something to them. I also have to point out that the earnings that come from selling VOIs are diminishing in importance (28% in 2018 vs 42% in 2017) so clearly keeping the existing owners happy is paramount. I expect that trend to continue and the sales force to diminish its influence in the future.




upload_2019-10-5_14-15-51.png


upload_2019-10-5_14-17-31.png
 

Fasttr

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
6,260
Reaction score
3,401
Points
498
Location
Connecticut
Resorts Owned
Marriott's Grande Ocean (Enrolled)
MVC Trust Points
I also have to point out that the earnings that come from selling VOIs are diminishing in importance (28% in 2018 vs 42% in 2017) so clearly keeping the existing owners happy is paramount. I expect that trend to continue and the sales force to diminish its influence in the future.

That change is merely due to the II exchange earnings now being part of the equation. There is not a lot of growth in that. Growth comes from point sales. The importance of the sales force will not diminish, instead it will become more important as a way to move the earnings needle.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,374
Reaction score
18,932
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
That change is merely due to the II exchange earnings now being part of the equation. There is not a lot of growth in that. Growth comes from point sales. The importance of the sales force will not diminish, instead it will become more important as a way to move the earnings needle.
ILG also had several other management arms to it, Trading Places, VRI, Aqua Aston. That is why the big difference in the pie chart today vs a couple years ago. It like comparing apples to oranges.

Aqua Aston seems like an odd fit here. Should MVC really be in the hotel management business? I suspect they will try to sell this off, but who knows.
 

VacationForever

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
16,199
Reaction score
10,611
Points
1,048
Location
Somewhere Out There
Again, I am a poor resale owner so I do not have a dog in this fight. But my expectation is for the Vistana owners and the MVC owners to have similar status based on the number of points they own in the common currency even if their points come solely from converting their Staroptions. The clear clue IMO is that they are talking about increasing the number of DC points needed for each level because of the Vistana integration so clearly they are expecting the Vistana ownership to count. Of course they can also grandfather some MVC owners that would no longer qualify but that does not change the big picture of equal rights, again IMO
A poor resale owner has a lot in the dog fight, in the hopes that resale owners get to play in the new sandbox as other direct purchase owners. The reality is that any timeshare system will first take care of owners who have paid money directly to them first. They will also find creative way for resale owners to pay substantial money to get their ownership accepted in the new system.
 
Last edited:

JIMinNC

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,879
Reaction score
4,429
Points
599
Location
Marvin, NC (Charlotte) & Hilton Head Island, SC
Resorts Owned
Marriott:
Maui Ocean Club
Waiohai Beach Club
Barony Beach Club
Abound ClubPoints
HGVC:
HGVC at Sea World
Aqua Aston seems like an odd fit here. Should MVC really be in the hotel management business? I suspect they will try to sell this off, but who knows.

It definitely seems like an odd fit, but the comments management made yesterday, and have said previously in earnings calls, seems to indicate they like the more predictable revenue stream that comes from the broader management business. I could see them selling it as a non-strategic asset if an attractive offer came along, but I could also see them keeping it as a small hedge against economic slowdowns.
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
they brag that 90% of the owners are happy so it must mean something to them.
Important to a point but they also realize that you can't make everyone happy and stirring the pot a little is often good business. I've seen this idea that the timeshare company has to cater to the owners and keep them happy but it really only comes from the owners side. I've seen Marriott and DVC over the years push that envelope. I've seen empty threat's and predictions of class action lawsuits and similar around this issue as well. IMO Marriott's history has already proven they are willing to accept a certain amount of negative reaction from owners and likely have used it to their advantage in the sales process and I have no doubt they will do the same in this area. When they rolled out the Trust/DC system there was a lot of negative reaction, I have no doubt there will be some repeat. Still, I suspect one can still have what they have already and one of my life's mantra's is that someone else's gain is not my loss. We'll see.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
@VacationForever and @Dean

every time I look at that sandbox it is rather empty from a value prospective. Flexibility matters but it just can't compare with the bargains that can be found in Interval.
I was referring to the Vistana owners who bought directly from the developer that they should be on equal terms with MVC. I guess that the timeshare sales reps thinks the company revolves around them but all I was saying was that now a good chunk of the earnings come from other departments, I am sure that others have a seat at the table as well when they make decisions. Companies like growth but they also like stability in the case of adverse economic conditions and Marriott understands the diversity of revenue very well.

As a company that earns a lot from managing the resorts, why would they not treat their owners well regardless of how they joined the club? If you buy a condominium in a complex will the neighbors and the management put you on a different list because you did not buy from the developer? This is absurd and retail owners buy this BS to their own detriment since part of the loss of ownership value is due to the attitude you are referring to. End everyone has to exit... eventually.
I am looking at my ownership, all resale. Between the annual MF and what I buy at the resorts (restaurant, food etc) I will easily $100k in the next 10-15 years. Is my money not good for MVC? Why me spending an additional $10k-$20k to requal some should change my standing so dramatically?
 
Last edited:

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
As a company that earns a lot from managing the resorts, why would they not treat their owners well regardless of how they joined the club?
But the reality is that there are different definitions of treating them well. They don't have to make them happy where they sit but rather make them want the new option enough to get them to pay for it. And timeshares do treat retail and resale owners differently and truthfully more and more so over the last decade or so for all of the points systems that I have some awareness off. My guess is they'll try to make them uneasy but not completely unhappy but we'll see.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
But the reality is that there are different definitions of treating them well. They don't have to make them happy where they sit but rather make them want the new option enough to get them to pay for it. And timeshares do treat retail and resale owners differently and truthfully more and more so over the last decade or so for all of the points systems that I have some awareness off. My guess is they'll try to make them uneasy but not completely unhappy but we'll see.

so I should probably wear this at the next owners update ;)

upload_2019-10-5_21-14-33.png
 

VacationForever

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
16,199
Reaction score
10,611
Points
1,048
Location
Somewhere Out There
To add to Dean's post, they do want to differentiate treatment of retail and resale owners to entice potential buyers to buy retail.
 

bazzap

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
4,423
Reaction score
1,240
Points
399
Location
Cirencester UK
Apart from
not having the option to convert Resale weeks to Marriott Bonvoy points, which is no longer appealing anyway
not being able to enrol Resale weeks in the DC points programme, which would be appealing but is an understandable decision
I have experienced absolutely no difference whatsoever in almost 20 years between MVCs treatment of retail and resale owners.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
Apart from
not having the option to convert Resale weeks to Marriott Bonvoy points, which is no longer appealing anyway
not being able to enrol Resale weeks in the DC points programme, which would be appealing but is an understandable decision
I have experienced absolutely no difference whatsoever in almost 20 years between MVCs treatment of retail and resale owners.

I did not mean that anybody is rude to the the resale owners or anything like that. Far from it but a lot of features are missing because you cannot enroll. Is this not enough?

They treat resale perfectly well except:

· You cannot book at any other resort (except through Interval, limited availability)

· You cannot book more or less than a week.

· You cannot borrow points; you cannot bank points.

· You do not have any loyalty status.

· You cannot convert your VOI to Bonvoy.

· You cannot book at 13 months.

· You cannot arbitrage the value of your VOI to convert to points to potentially rent at a higher value than renting your week.

· You cannot convert (part of) your VOI to pay for incidentals at the resort.

· You cannot have a higher discount for your cash reservations (Presidential and Chairman's Club DC Members - 35% off)

· You cannot have a higher discount for 60 days or less DC points reservations. (Presidential and Chairman's Club Members - 30% discount)

The irony is, the retail owners seem to side in general with the developers even if it greatly reduces the value of their ownership when they sell. The fact that the resale owners cannot enroll also reduces the DC inventory (especially at certain locations) and I do not see how this is beneficial to the retail owners.

More people paying DC fees is good for the company and probably good for everyone. If 200,000 unrolled owners suddenly pay $200 a year in DC fees, this is 400 million dollars that go straight to the earnings in the next 10 years. If they charge $1k for enrollment it adds another 200 millions to their bottom line right away! Does anyone know what kind of growth, what kind of effort they need to match that from the traditional sales?
To put things in prospective, they make about 150 millions in earnings from selling VOIs. If they increase their sales by 10% they will earn an additional 15 millions a year.

I have listened now to most of the Investor Day presentation and the feeling I am getting is that they think BIG and want to go FAST. Not only that their revenue is becoming more and more diversified and less dependent on the sales dept (and they are kind of bragging about that) but they will also benefit most from the digitization of their business and from selling additional products and services if they have the biggest tent possible.

Time will tell. In any case, I am happy that I am in the camp that always said that an integration was coming because it made sense. We do not know more than that but that is at lease of of our way. Despite of what reps and those who were listening to reps were telling us.
 
Last edited:

bazzap

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
4,423
Reaction score
1,240
Points
399
Location
Cirencester UK
I did not mean that anybody is rude to the the resale owners or anything like that. Far from it but a lot of features are missing because you cannot enroll. Is this not enough?

They treat resale perfectly well except:

· You cannot book at any other resort (except through Interval, limited availability)

· You cannot book more or less than a week.

· You cannot borrow points; you cannot bank points.

· You do not have any loyalty status.

· You cannot convert your VOI to Bonvoy.

· You cannot book at 13 months.

· You cannot arbitrage the value of your VOI to convert to points to potentially rent at a higher value than renting your week.

· You cannot convert (part of) your VOI to pay for incidentals at the resort.

· You cannot have a higher discount for your cash reservations (Presidential and Chairman's Club DC Members - 35% off)

· You cannot have a higher discount for 60 days or less DC points reservations. (Presidential and Chairman's Club Members - 30% discount)

The irony is, the retail owners seem to side in general with the developers even if it greatly reduces the value of their ownership when they sell. The fact that the resale owners cannot enroll also reduces the DC inventory (especially at certain locations) and I do not see how this is beneficial to the retail.

I have listened now to most of the Investor Day presentation and the feeling I am getting is that they think BIG and want to go FAST. Not only that their revenue is becoming more and more diversified and less dependent on the sales dept (and they are kind of bragging about that) but they will also benefit most from the digitization of their business and from selling additional products and services if they have the biggest tent possible.

Time will tell. In any case, I am happy that I am in the camp that always said that an integration was coming because it made sense. We do not know more than that but that is at lease of of our way. Despite of what reps and those who were listening to reps were telling us.

OK, I think I understand what you are saying as it applies to more recent Resale purchases.
All the Resale weeks we purchased before the cut-off dates have been enrolled though, so almost all of the exceptions you list here don’t apply to us and although we don’t own points we do have all the enrolled Owner benefits of the points programme.
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
so I should probably wear this at the next owners update ;)

View attachment 14470
Sure or ? even better, I can wear my TUG T-shirt. But does it really make any difference other than if we want to be confrontational with person(s) who have no power to change the system and wouldn't if they could? Unless you're walking in to the corporate office for a meeting with senior management, it really wouldn't serve any purpose other than possibly making you feel like you've done something when you haven't.

Apart from
not having the option to convert Resale weeks to Marriott Bonvoy points, which is no longer appealing anyway
not being able to enrol Resale weeks in the DC points programme, which would be appealing but is an understandable decision
I have experienced absolutely no difference whatsoever in almost 20 years between MVCs treatment of retail and resale owners.
Yes and no. I would say in contractual usage they do not treat them differently but there are nuances. For example, they offer a special phone line and advanced Advisors for Customer Service. And I've had a few mentions over the years when I had called and even at resorts about being resale. Nothing big or even uncomfortable but a mention here and there.

They treat resale perfectly well except:

· You cannot book at any other resort (except through Interval, limited availability)

· You cannot book more or less than a week.

· You cannot borrow points; you cannot bank points.

· You do not have any loyalty status.

· You cannot convert your VOI to Bonvoy.

· You cannot book at 13 months.

· You cannot arbitrage the value of your VOI to convert to points to potentially rent at a higher value than renting your week.

· You cannot convert (part of) your VOI to pay for incidentals at the resort.

· You cannot have a higher discount for your cash reservations (Presidential and Chairman's Club DC Members - 35% off)

· You cannot have a higher discount for 60 days or less DC points reservations. (Presidential and Chairman's Club Members - 30% discount)
I can't speak for non Marriott options but I can for Marriott. NONE of the options you listed are a function of resale vs retail. Most are a function of enrollment vs fixed/floating weeks. You ? can enroll if resale but it is more costly so IF you chose to enroll, they do treat you differently if resale (after X cutoff date) vs retail and they may not give enrollment options to resale in the future at all. You can book at 13 months if resale if booking concurrent or consecutive weeks. You can book at other resorts in some situations like the FL club but not the same way as for points. Loyalty status is a function of enrollment and it really only applies if points usage is involved. Since none of the rest of this is contractual, but rather added on top, it's their choice.

Getting more philosophical, the idea that companies treat everyone the same never happens through some are more variable than others. Companies routinely give discounts to loyal customers or to secure additional business. They'll open late, early, even off days for some groups (even Sam's/Costco). Even your physician, dentist, accountant, mechanic (etc) has some variability in how they treat people. Specific to timeshares we all went in knowing (or should have know) there were certain contractual limitations of the POS. We knew, or should have known, what was being provided and what was not including things like ROFR. All this integration and points issue is not contractual and it's unrealistic to think they would give away such services without expecting a return.

Personally I think there will be reasonable options and that many are gong to be pleased with a combined or next tier product but those who feel that anything short of just giving it to them are going to be disappointed. And I think that those that fall afoul of whatever cutoff they use to count as qualified vs non qualified are going to be unhappy. I suspect they'll pull dates of qualification from what they already have in place. I think even using the merger date is likely optimistic as the cutoff but we'll see.

It's going to be fun around here for quite some time just like it was following the DC roll out.
 

kds4

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,803
Reaction score
401
Points
293
Location
USA
Resorts Owned
Marriott Weeks and DC Points
Again, I am a poor resale owner so I do not have a dog in this fight. But my expectation is for the Vistana owners and the MVC owners to have similar status based on the number of points they own in the common currency even if their points come solely from converting their Staroptions. The clear clue IMO is that they are talking about increasing the number of DC points needed for each level because of the Vistana integration so clearly they are expecting the Vistana ownership to count. Of course they can also grandfather some MVC owners that would no longer qualify but that does not change the big picture of equal rights, again IMO

Perhaps, but MVC has been steadily raising the required number of points (and adding additional ownership levels as well) even when major things (like the ILG acquisition) weren't happening. So, I'm not sure that is a real thing. They may just be languaging the latest impending increases as 'due to impacts of the ILG acquisition'.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
Sure or ? even better, I can wear my TUG T-shirt. But does it really make any difference other than if we want to be confrontational with person(s) who have no power to change the system and wouldn't if they could? Unless you're walking in to the corporate office for a meeting with senior management, it really wouldn't serve any purpose other than possibly making you feel like you've done something when you haven't.

Yes and no. I would say in contractual usage they do not treat them differently but there are nuances. For example, they offer a special phone line and advanced Advisors for Customer Service. And I've had a few mentions over the years when I had called and even at resorts about being resale. Nothing big or even uncomfortable but a mention here and there.

I can't speak for non Marriott options but I can for Marriott. NONE of the options you listed are a function of resale vs retail. Most are a function of enrollment vs fixed/floating weeks. You ? can enroll if resale but it is more costly so IF you chose to enroll, they do treat you differently if resale (after X cutoff date) vs retail and they may not give enrollment options to resale in the future at all. You can book at 13 months if resale if booking concurrent or consecutive weeks. You can book at other resorts in some situations like the FL club but not the same way as for points. Loyalty status is a function of enrollment and it really only applies if points usage is involved. Since none of the rest of this is contractual, but rather added on top, it's their choice.

Getting more philosophical, the idea that companies treat everyone the same never happens through some are more variable than others. Companies routinely give discounts to loyal customers or to secure additional business. They'll open late, early, even off days for some groups (even Sam's/Costco). Even your physician, dentist, accountant, mechanic (etc) has some variability in how they treat people. Specific to timeshares we all went in knowing (or should have know) there were certain contractual limitations of the POS. We knew, or should have known, what was being provided and what was not including things like ROFR. All this integration and points issue is not contractual and it's unrealistic to think they would give away such services without expecting a return.

Personally I think there will be reasonable options and that many are gong to be pleased with a combined or next tier product but those who feel that anything short of just giving it to them are going to be disappointed. And I think that those that fall afoul of whatever cutoff they use to count as qualified vs non qualified are going to be unhappy. I suspect they'll pull dates of qualification from what they already have in place. I think even using the merger date is likely optimistic as the cutoff but we'll see.

It's going to be fun around here for quite some time just like it was following the DC roll out.
To me this is a by design method to transfer wealth from the retail owners to the coffers of the company. Nothing more. By design the developers are able to acquire dirt cheap inventory and sell it over and over at full price. Marriott pompously calls this a "capital-efficient acquisition model".
How much are the junk fees to enroll resale points? $3 a point? If you own 4000 points and you sell them, Marriott will make $12,000 from re-enrolling those points even if you paid in full for them already. It is not hard to imagine your listing price is greatly diminished since the buyer will have to factor in the $12k he would pay to Marriott (plus some other fees actually). If they ROFR they will make even more!

This has nothing to do with rewarding your best customers. In most other business and especially in real estate, all features that come with a good or service are transmitted to the next owner.
 
Last edited:

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
To me this is a by design method to transfer wealth from the retail owners to the coffers of the company. Nothing more. By design the developers are able to acquire dirt cheap inventory and sell it over and over at full price. Marriott pompously calls this a "capital-efficient acquisition model".
How much are the junk fees to enroll resale points? $3 a point? If you own 4000 points and you sell them, Marriott will make $12,000 from re-enrolling those points even if you paid in full for them already. It is not hard to imagine your listing price is greatly diminished since the buyer will have to factor in the $12k he would pay to Marriott (plus some other fees actually)

This has nothing to do with rewarding your best customers. In most other business and especially in real estate, all features that come with a good or service are transmitted to the next owner.
I think it's both but no one is required to participate, it can be a win win, I think it is for me. It's little different than buying a new car which is worth 20% less 20 minutes later. Timeshares are what they are and Marriott is better than most. We decide whether to participate but it sounds like you aren't happy participating. If you're happy with what you contractually own, you should be fine. One of my life Mantra's in that someone else's gain is not automatically my loss. See the list you posted above where that would apply.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
I think it's both but no one is required to participate, it can be a win win, I think it is for me. It's little different than buying a new car which is worth 20% less 20 minutes later. Timeshares are what they are and Marriott is better than most. We decide whether to participate but it sounds like you aren't happy participating. If you're happy with what you contractually own, you should be fine. One of my life Mantra's in that someone else's gain is not automatically my loss. See the list you posted above where that would apply.
My discussion again is purely theoretical for me since I cannot be frustrated about the lack of additional features because I bought resale completely knowing what I was buying. If anything, I actually benefited from their policy since I was probably able to buy cheaper. Yet, I can still feel for those that may have lost tens of thousands of dollars so that I can benefit from this. I am very happy with what I own. I agree with you , Marriott and Vistana are great companies .
 

jabberwocky

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
2,829
Reaction score
2,583
Points
348
Resorts Owned
SVR, SDO, WKORV-N, Westin Flex, HGVC (BLVD)
To me this is a by design method to transfer wealth from the retail owners to the coffers of the company. Nothing more. By design the developers are able to acquire dirt cheap inventory and sell it over and over at full price. Marriott pompously calls this a "capital-efficient acquisition model".
How much are the junk fees to enroll resale points? $3 a point? If you own 4000 points and you sell them, Marriott will make $12,000 from re-enrolling those points even if you paid in full for them already. It is not hard to imagine your listing price is greatly diminished since the buyer will have to factor in the $12k he would pay to Marriott (plus some other fees actually). If they ROFR they will make even more!

This has nothing to do with rewarding your best customers. In most other business and especially in real estate, all features that come with a good or service are transmitted to the next owner.

I'm not going to fault a company for finding a way to make money. Timeshares have largely always been about arbitrage, whether it is the prime weeks owner getting to stay cheaper than it would otherwise be because of low season owner's, trading in II/RCI for a better property, Vistana owner's using cheap WKV SO's to book into Hawaii. Where Marriott seems to excel and is taking advantage is to do the arbitrage themselves and gain the surplus.

Yeah - it doesn't leave much on the table for the smart timeshare owner and personally I'm not sure that I'll want to play the game with Marriott DC (even though my family would be in the prime customer group according to the Investor presentation). There will still be other areas in the timeshare world where arbitrage is possible and it might be time to migrate there as painful as that might be.

At this point I'm glad I own where we want to go.
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
My discussion again is purely theoretical for me since I cannot be frustrated about the lack of additional features because I bought resale completely knowing what I was buying. If anything, I actually benefited from their policy since I was probably able to buy cheaper. Yet, I can still feel for those that may have lost tens of thousands of dollars so that I can benefit from this. I am very happy with what I own. I agree with you , Marriott and Vistana are great companies .
Again, they knew or should have known what they were getting into. Timeshares, at their core, are intended for personal use. The POS for every one I've ever seen says this as well as a warning about selling or renting. It's a statement of expectation though not of requirement even though some want to use this to say one cannot rent. If one uses it, that's wherein the value lies. They only lose anything if they are looking to sell which should not be the plan going in though they should understand there are limitations and risks doing so. I think we all have a dog in the fight if we own with any of these companies or are thinking about buying in but some less than others. I think you and I are on opposite ends in one sense but the same in another. We both will likely not lose or gain anything to speak of, or at least we both are assuming so. For you, it seems whatever they roll out that is not free will be a pass which should not hurt your core usage though it may ultimately limit your availability unless you own fixed weeks. For me as Chairman's club I suspect I'll get free, or nearly free, additional options but that truthfully, will not affect my personal usage and the main downside it is may create additional competition since I don't feel that Vistana/Westin adds much of anything for me. If they increase the requirements, or add an additional tier (as I suspect), it's still likely I'll be grandfathered. If that happens I may pick up some peanuts but likely nothing else.

I think we'll both be happy as long as we keep those understandings in mind alone with the idea that timeshares change over time. All do and in most cases, not for the better.
 

CalGalTraveler

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
9,749
Reaction score
8,274
Points
498
Location
California
Resorts Owned
HGVC, MVC Vistana
More people paying DC fees is good for the company and probably good for everyone. If 200,000 unrolled owners suddenly pay $200 a year in DC fees, this is 400 million dollars that go straight to the earnings in the next 10 years. If they charge $1k for enrollment it adds another 200 millions to their bottom line right away! Does anyone know what kind of growth, what kind of effort they need to match that from the traditional sales?
To put things in prospective, they make about 150 millions in earnings from selling VOIs. If they increase their sales by 10% they will earn an additional 15 millions a year.

I have listened now to most of the Investor Day presentation and the feeling I am getting is that they think BIG and want to go FAST. ...and from selling additional products and services if they have the biggest tent possible.

^^^^^^^^^^ This is an interesting point. The profit margin on mass enrollment is huge, while meeting incremental sales goals are risky (especially with a downturn at some point in the future) and less profitable. Mass enrollment wouldn't even require a visit to a sales office and could be accomplished via digital outreach to owners, lowering the cost of acquisition.

Which option will pad the CEO's stock and bonus incentives faster and with more certainty? If the figures above are true, mass enrollment for a nominal fee is a no-brainer for a CEO.

The questions of whether one bought retail or resale won't matter if the CEO and the company reaches sizable growth to keep Wall St. happy and their bonuses and stock mushroom over the next few years.

There is also a point made by a poster on the Vistana forum that requal pricing has been discounted to incent more voluntary properties back into the Staroption (SO) trading system. Over the years with developer customers exiting and selling resale, voluntary resort only inventory increased resulting in a shrinkage of SO trading inventory.

So there is a need to replenish voluntary inventory in the StarOption system at places like Lagunamar, and St. John where there will be significant demand when MVC is integrated. Otherwise customers will be disappointed because there will not be sufficient inventory.

Perhaps there could be a similar push with MVC properties that are unenrolled to keep up with demand especially in places like MOC with owners who didn't want to pay full enrollment because they wouldn't trade much, but would consider for a lower fee for an occasional trade. There could be an argument that these folks missed out on 10 years of DC trading and were unable to rent points, and would not trade much anyway so they should not pay as much as those that got early access privileges since 2010 and heavily utilized the system.
 
Last edited:

csalter2

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,968
Reaction score
554
Points
473
Location
Orange County, California
Resorts Owned
Marriott Ko Olina
Marriott Aruba Surf Club
Marriott Ocean Pointe
Diamond Resorts Gold
I did not mean that anybody is rude to the the resale owners or anything like that. Far from it but a lot of features are missing because you cannot enroll. Is this not enough?

They treat resale perfectly well except:

· You cannot book at any other resort (except through Interval, limited availability)

· You cannot book more or less than a week.

· You cannot borrow points; you cannot bank points.

· You do not have any loyalty status.

· You cannot convert your VOI to Bonvoy.

· You cannot book at 13 months.

· You cannot arbitrage the value of your VOI to convert to points to potentially rent at a higher value than renting your week.

· You cannot convert (part of) your VOI to pay for incidentals at the resort.

· You cannot have a higher discount for your cash reservations (Presidential and Chairman's Club DC Members - 35% off)

· You cannot have a higher discount for 60 days or less DC points reservations. (Presidential and Chairman's Club Members - 30% discount)

The irony is, the retail owners seem to side in general with the developers even if it greatly reduces the value of their ownership when they sell. The fact that the resale owners cannot enroll also reduces the DC inventory (especially at certain locations) and I do not see how this is beneficial to the retail owners.

More people paying DC fees is good for the company and probably good for everyone. If 200,000 unrolled owners suddenly pay $200 a year in DC fees, this is 400 million dollars that go straight to the earnings in the next 10 years. If they charge $1k for enrollment it adds another 200 millions to their bottom line right away! Does anyone know what kind of growth, what kind of effort they need to match that from the traditional sales?
To put things in prospective, they make about 150 millions in earnings from selling VOIs. If they increase their sales by 10% they will earn an additional 15 millions a year.

I have listened now to most of the Investor Day presentation and the feeling I am getting is that they think BIG and want to go FAST. Not only that their revenue is becoming more and more diversified and less dependent on the sales dept (and they are kind of bragging about that) but they will also benefit most from the digitization of their business and from selling additional products and services if they have the biggest tent possible.

Time will tell. In any case, I am happy that I am in the camp that always said that an integration was coming because it made sense. We do not know more than that but that is at lease of of our way. Despite of what reps and those who were listening to reps were telling us.

What you’re getting from resale is actually what the original bought. He bought a week with the ability to occupy it, rent it or exchange it. It is very clear on the documents that all of the other goodies are “extras”. So Marriott has not taken anything away from you. They can change all of the “benefits” any time they want.
 
Top