For People who Pooled Points before that option was eliminated...

[paxsarah]

Even if it was free Why would anyone want a contract without points for 3 years?

Maybe they didn't realize when they bought it. Maybe it was sold at $0 with costs paid by seller? Not sure.

It is possible that I misunderstand what happened.

Joe

There's tons of backstory available in old threads, but here's some specific references:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...l-accts-suspended.245656/page-51#post-1964388
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/slim-pickings-on-resale.269552/page-4#post-2145339
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/overvaluing-low-mfs.272946/page-3#post-2130879

 

[Cyrus24]

Maybe they didn't realize when they bought it. Maybe it was sold at $0 with costs paid by seller? Not sure.

It is possible that I misunderstand what happened.

Joe

That's what they did as I understood it also, unloaded the contract for nothing, possibly even giving them back to Wyndham. Remember, these stripped points were all being used for 50% off reservations and with upgrades galore at high demand resorts during high demand weeks. They could afford to give the contracts away and even pay to have them taken over. When they unloaded the contracts, I'm sure the 'buyer' knew what they were getting, I don't get the impression that any mega renter ever mislead others on what they were doing. While they technically did not 'abuse' the Credit Pool, they certainly did not use the pool as Wyndham intended it to be used, thus its elimination.

I hope that Wyndham brings back the Credit Pool, minus the stripping option, of course.

 

[Sandy VDH]

In my opinion, as compared to all other points programs that I am familiar with (HGVC, HICV +), the 3 year extension was very generous. My guess is you will never see that credit pool rule again.

 

[dgalati]

How did people abuse credit pool? It was a benefit. I have mixed feelings about the changes. I liked 3 years to use but do like not depositing until December with new system. We do a lot of weekends some as late as December

No abuse imho. I compare it to cancel and rebook. No rules broken -vips just taking what was being advertised to get them to buy up to gold or the 50% discount

 

[Jan M.]

How did people abuse credit pool?

While they technically did not 'abuse' the Credit Pool, they certainly did not use the pool as Wyndham intended it to be used.

If you didn't follow Ron's story there was a reason he and the others doing what he did are "no longer owners." I'm no lawyer so I don't know the correct legal terms but I would think Wyndham's legal team used terms like intent to defraud, theft of services and other things along those lines. Ron was the first to sit down with Wyndham's legal team and likely made a more favorable deal for himself than others got in exchange for teaching Wyndham what they had no idea Ron and others were doing. From what Ron posted Wyndham was under the impression that his 90 million points in reservations was due to him manufacturing points due to the credit pool malfunctioning. Some people ended up with several million points they shouldn't have had due to a glitch in the system when they cancelled reservations made with credit pooled points. That is what the freeze of August 2016 was all about. Ron explained to Wyndham that the source of the points for all those reservations in his account was from buying up millions of points, depositing those millions of points in the credit pool, getting up to three years worth of points, using some of them to make reservations he sold and selling the rest of the points to the point managers. Ron and the others doing what he did then dumped the stripped deeds and contracts before they had to pay the maintenance fees on those credit pooled points. They sold some of those deeds and contracts back to Wyndham and some to individuals. It was not paying the maintenance fees on those credit pooled points they had used and sold that brought about the end for them. Ron was only in the game for three years I think he said and we have no idea how many other people his mentor taught to do what they did nor how long this had been going on before Ron got into it. Between all the people doing what Ron did and the others who did take advantage of the glitch in the credit pool to gain millions of points they didn't ever own, Wyndham lost a lot of money in uncollected maintenance fees on what likely amounted to a billion if not more points

 

[dgalati]

If you didn't follow Ron's story there was a reason he and the others doing what he did are "no longer owners." I'm no lawyer so I don't know the correct legal terms but I would think Wyndham's legal team used terms like intent to defraud, theft of services and other things along those lines. Ron was the first to sit down with Wyndham's legal team and likely made a more favorable deal for himself than others got in exchange for teaching Wyndham what they had no idea Ron and others were doing. From what Ron posted Wyndham was under the impression that his 90 million points in reservations was due to him manufacturing points due to the credit pool malfunctioning. Some people ended up with several million points they shouldn't have had due to a glitch in the system when they cancelled reservations made with credit pooled points. That is what the freeze of August 2016 was all about. Ron explained to Wyndham that the source of the points for all those reservations in his account was from buying up millions of points, depositing those millions of points in the credit pool, getting up to three years worth of points, using some of them to make reservations he sold and selling the rest of the points to the point managers. Ron and the others doing what he did then dumped the stripped deeds and contracts before they had to pay the maintenance fees on those credit pooled points. They sold some of those deeds and contracts back to Wyndham and some to individuals. It was not paying the maintenance fees on those credit pooled points they had used and sold that brought about the end for them. Ron only was in the game for three years I think he said and we have no idea how many other people his mentor taught to do what they did nor how long this had been going on before Ron got into it. Between all the people doing what Ron did and the others who did take advantage of the glitch in the credit pool to gain millions of points they didn't ever own, Wyndham lost a lot of money in uncollected maintenance fees on what likely amounted to a billion if not more points

Ron played Wyndham like a fiddle, Lets not forget Wyndham bought out Ron and others at what $? How much did the cancel and rebook loophole cost Wyndham? Remember this was sold as a VIP benefit that never was really a benefit. Wyndham has removed any loop holes that compete with their own in house mega renter (Extra Holidays) Wyndham's sales should be held to the same standard as they held Ron and the others to.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Maybe they didn't realize when they bought it. Maybe it was sold at $0 with costs paid by seller? Not sure.

It is possible that I misunderstand what happened.

Joe

I remember some of those stripped contracts listed in the bargain deals. Ron was very transparent about what the buyer was getting. A low maintenance fee contract could be worth it to someone (to pay maintenance fees for a few years before getting points). They knew what they were getting into.

I believe it was in that era that Ovations launched. My guess is that Wyndham took back some stripped accounts and it was then that they decided they better figure out what was going on. I say shame on Wyndham. They didn't care if accounts were stripped as long as someone was paying the maintenance fees. I got the impression they got caught holding the bag.

 

[joestein]

Ron played Wyndham like a fiddle, Lets not forget Wyndham bought out Ron and others at what $? How much did the cancel and rebook loophole cost Wyndham? Remember this was sold as a VIP benefit that never was really a benefit. Wyndham has removed any loop holes that compete with their own in house mega renter (Extra Holidays) Wyndham's sales should be held to the same standard as they held Ron and the others to.

Two wrongs don't make a right. His actions and similar ones by others is what led to elimination of the credit pools for the hundreds of thousands of other owners.

 

[Pathways]

It was not paying the maintenance fees on those credit pooled points they had used and sold that brought about the end for them

Wyndham lost a lot of money in uncollected maintenance fees on what likely amounted to a billion if not more points

Maybe I totally missed this, but I thought I followed the old threads religiously. I don't remember any evidence that MF's were not paid. Contracts were sold with no points available for a couple of years, but they were CLEARLY described and the buyer's KNEW they had to pay the MF's for a while with no points.

Wyndham was under the impression that his 90 million points in reservations was due to him manufacturing points due to the credit pool malfunctioning

Responding to a long post, but just to make it clear, Ron did NOTHING wrong or illegal. Wyndham THOUGHT he was, but it was proven otherwise. I don't want Ron to have to defend himself here.

Wyndham may have been stuck paying MF's they didn't count on if they didn't get the contract resold, but I believe the associations got their money.

 

[Pathways]

Ron played Wyndham like a fiddle. Lets not forget Wyndham bought out Ron and others at what $

Don't follow you here. Ron just followed the rules as they were. Sure he reached a 'settlement' with them, with confidentiality. I never got the feeling that in the end he came out with a windfall. Remember, Wyndham locked the accounts of a LOT of owners who continued to pay their MF's to avoid default yet couldn't use their points.

 

[Pathways]

Two wrongs don't make a right. His actions and similar ones by others is what led to elimination of the credit pools for the hundreds of thousands of other owners

I disagree TOTALLY. The credit pool was an IT and logistical NIGHTMARE!. A great idea but like many ideas the implementation was filled with loopholes and errors. Evidence the Tugger's who still have a few remaining points on the back end the the pool, and the struggle to track them.

If anything, their actions opened the eyes of Wyndham as to the mess they had created and allowed them to shut it down before it become un-fixable.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I disagree TOTALLY. The credit pool was an IT and logistical NIGHTMARE!. A great idea but like many ideas the implementation was filled with loopholes and errors. Evidence the Tugger's who still have a few remaining points on the back end the the pool, and the struggle to track them.

If anything, their actions opened the eyes of Wyndham as to the mess they had created and allowed them to shut it down before it become un-fixable.

Crazy me, I'd like to think WYN will realize the errs of their ways here regarding using up the back end to the pooled points and implement a solution so people don't lose points in the process (even it has to be a manual correction). Surely this is not what they intended. As always, WYN leaves me questioning how well they understand, think out, or plan anything (and makes me shudder to think of the system issues Privileges will introduce ).

Sure glad Sandy VDH recognized the pooled points issue and posted the heads-up.

 

[scootr5]

I remember some of those stripped contracts listed in the bargain deals. Ron was very transparent about what the buyer was getting. A low maintenance fee contract could be worth it to someone (to pay maintenance fees for a few years before getting points). They knew what they were getting into.

I believe it was in that era that Ovations launched. My guess is that Wyndham took back some stripped accounts and it was then that they decided they better figure out what was going on. I say shame on Wyndham. They didn't care if accounts were stripped as long as someone was paying the maintenance fees. I got the impression they got caught holding the bag.

Yep. I took a South Shore contract from him, and knew going in that I would be paying fees for a bit until I got usable points (although they came about 9 months earlier than I expected).

 

[am1]

I do not think Wyndham was taking back stripped contracts. I tried and they could not even set points aside so when the contracts were taken back reservations would not be cancelled.

I do not think Wyndham was interested in finding out the issues.

 

[Jan M.]

Maybe I totally missed this, but I thought I followed the old threads religiously. I don't remember any evidence that MF's were not paid. Contracts were sold with no points available for a couple of years, but they were CLEARLY described and the buyer's KNEW they had to pay the MF's for a while with no points.

Responding to a long post, but just to make it clear, Ron did NOTHING wrong or illegal. Wyndham THOUGHT he was, but it was proven otherwise. I don't want Ron to have to defend himself here.

Wyndham may have been stuck paying MF's they didn't count on if they didn't get the contract resold, but I believe the associations got their money.

I think you're missing the point that only opinion that matters about what Ron and the others did is Wyndham's. There were people posting that they had been telling Wyndham for months about the glitch in the credit pool giving them points they didn't own and shouldn't have gotten. That is what the freeze was about. When Ron was asked to explain how he could have so many millions of points in reservations Wyndham's legal team was using some legal terms that didn't bode well for Ron. He explained what he did and they found out they had a separate problem they hadn't previously known about. Another thing that should be noted is that Ron told us he had a mentor. Ron wasn't the first one in that game nor likely one of the biggest players either. Due to the non-disclosure agreement all Ron could say was that a settlement agreement was reached and he was "no longer an owner". So we have no idea whether Wyndham said agree to this and we won't pursue legal action or they just wanted Ron and the others doing what he did gone. Since what they were doing was quite profitable for them we can figure they didn't walk away from it willingly. Typically in settlement agreements like these the individuals cannot ever own with Wyndham again and in some cases cannot even stay at the resorts. Ron did say that he would miss staying at the resorts so we don't know if that was part of his agreement or if he just wouldn't pay the price to rent from another owner when he was used to staying for free.

I took a South Shore contract from him, and knew going in that I would be paying fees for a bit until I got usable points (although they came about 9 months earlier than I expected).

As you pointed out you got points earlier than you expected and weren't the only one this happened to. Silos and poor accounting on Wyndham's part. It took a while for the numbers to get so far out of the norms before someone woke up and took notice.

I do not think Wyndham was taking back stripped contracts.

Something you may have missed is that Ron said that someone in Wyndham or on Wyndham's behalf was buying back some but not all of those stripped deeds and contracts from them. Wyndham doesn't sell stripped deeds and contracts that I've ever heard of. Who would pay the developer prices and not have any points to use for another couple of years? That means they were either holding those deeds and contracts or supplying the points out of their own points. I would guess the latter due to poor accounting and sloppy work in the contract department.

Two wrongs don't make a right. His actions and similar ones by others is what led to elimination of the credit pools for the hundreds of thousands of other owners.

Not only that but think about what the freeze and buying out Ron and the others cost. I would guess that there were also a few owners who did knowingly exploit the glitch in the credit pool and are "no longer owners" too. Ron and the others made reservations with those credit pooled points and sold the stays or sold off the points to point managers. We are talking hundreds of millions of points they had not paid a penny in maintenance fees on. The hours spent by the legal team, all the people they pulled to work on reviewing the accounts, etc., in addition to what they were paying in the maintenance fees on those points cost plenty. Wyndham didn't just absorb the losses and shrug their shoulders. The costs are always passed on to the consumer, or in this case the owners. Their accountants and departments were put to work finding ways to recoup those losses. Some people don't seem to understand that all the other owners are the ones who paid for it. It's not so easy to make light of others scamming the system and gloating about them putting one over on Wyndham when you understand it's ultimately at your expense.

 

[dgalati]

Maybe I totally missed this, but I thought I followed the old threads religiously. I don't remember any evidence that MF's were not paid. Contracts were sold with no points available for a couple of years, but they were CLEARLY described and the buyer's KNEW they had to pay the MF's for a while with no points.




Responding to a long post, but just to make it clear, Ron did NOTHING wrong or illegal. Wyndham THOUGHT he was, but it was proven otherwise. I don't want Ron to have to defend himself here.

Wyndham may have been stuck paying MF's they didn't count on if they didn't get the contract resold, but I believe the associations got their money.

No deeds could transfer with maintenance fees past due.

 

[Jan M.]

No deeds could transfer with maintenance fees past due.

True but with credit pooled points that had already been used the maintenance fees weren't yet due at the time the deeds and contracts were transferred.

 

[dgalati]

[Something you may have missed is that Ron said that someone in Wyndham or on Wyndham's behalf was buying back some but not all of those stripped deeds and contracts from them. Wyndham doesn't sell stripped deeds and contracts that I've ever heard of. Who would pay the developer prices and not have any points to use for another couple of years? That means they were either holding those deeds and contracts or supplying the points out of their own points. I would guess the latter due to poor accounting and sloppy work in the contract department.



Not only that but think about what the freeze and buying out Ron and the others cost. I would guess that there were also a few owners who did knowingly exploit the glitch in the credit pool and are "no longer owners" too. Ron and the others made reservations with those credit pooled points and sold the stays or sold off the points to point managers. We are talking hundreds of millions of points they had not paid a penny in maintenance fees on. The hours spent by the legal team, all the people they pulled to work on reviewing the accounts, etc., in addition to what they were paying in the maintenance fees on those points cost plenty. Wyndham didn't just absorb the losses and shrug their shoulders. The costs are always passed on to the consumer, or in this case the owners. Their accountants and departments were put to work finding ways to recoup those losses. Some people don't seem to understand that all the other owners are the ones who paid for it. It's not so easy to make light of others scamming the system and gloating about them putting one over on Wyndham when you understand it's ultimately at your expense.[/QUOTE]
No scamming on Ron's part. Wyndham"s system enabled them to beat the system. Cancel and rebook was also taken advantage of. It was never intended as a way to beat the system out of a 50% discount for VIP owners to rent vacations. This is why Wyndham also changed the way this worked. How many on this board worked that benefit at the cost of non VIP owners? This abuse caused a lack of availability at many owners trying to book personal vacations so VIP owners could rent at a profit.

 

[Jan M.]

No scamming on Ron's part. Wyndham"s system enabled them to beat the system.

That is your opinion and clearly one Wyndham didn't share. And theirs is the only one that counts.

"Beating the system" is regarded as synonymous to scamming.

 

[dgalati]

True but with credit pooled points that had already been used the maintenance fees weren't yet due at the time the deeds and contracts were transferred.

Deeds can transfer as long as current owner is up to date on maintenance fees. If someone buys a deed with a points used for 3 years and they pay all maintenance fees for the 3 years no harm no foul imho.

 

[dgalati]

That is your opinion and clearly one Wyndham didn't share. And theirs is the only one that counts.

Cancel and rebook was also abused by many in Wyndham's opinion. That is why it was also eliminated as a so called VIP perk that was never a owner benefit.

 

[am1]

Glad I am no longer an owner. A few on here should consider the same as Wyndham is always thinking of ways to increase profit regardless of what other owners have done.

I enjoyed the ride for it lasted and getting 4 bedroom presidentials for half the amount of the smallest unit.

I am sure there are other weaknesses in the system still.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Cancel and rebook was also abused by many in Wyndham's opinion. That is why it was also eliminated as a so called VIP perk that was never a owner benefit.

Cancel/rebook was heavily marketed by sales. No comparison, IMO. BTW, Wyndham will still tell you it's possible to cancel/rebook (comically as they are telling you the system is real time and inventory is available immediately when someone else cancels). But still...

 

[bnoble]

We can't on the one hand admonish sales for lying constantly, and at the same time claim that something sales says is representative of what the folks *managing* the trust had in mind.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Yeah, but you could call in and the VC's would do it for you. They prided themselves in how well they could do it. Wyndham could have easily done away with it, at anytime. All they had to do was tell people it wasn't okay, and not let the VC's do it. I don't see much difference between that and the don't book over 10 nights rule. With the old system, programmatically it wouldn't stop you. But Wyndham came down with a heavy head (threatening letters to take action against you). They could have done something similiar with cancel/rebook.

At the owner's meeting in Las Vegas in October, they reiterated that it is still possible to cancel/rebook. They stood up there and said the system is real time, reservations come back real time, and that you can still cancel/rebook.