All MVC properties in Hawaii (and a few others internationally iirc) offer a midweek cleaning.
All Westin properties everywhere offer a midweek cleaning.
I can't see how that is a net-benefit to MVC over Westin.
IIRC, there are more deaths by gun violence per capita in the USA than mexico.
Canada has less than a quarter as many gun violence deaths per capita as the US.
If you're willing to live in the US, then the risk of violence in any other first or second world country is almost certainly less.
Quick source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
This isn't really Westin/MVC related, but I definitely have experienced more corruption as a foreign tourist in the USA vs Mexico, and I spend a comparable amount of time each year in both countries.
I encourage you to go to tripadviser and check the thousands of reviews about Westin Lagunamar. Read what people who have actually been there think about safety.A bit off topic but okay with me. The issue w Mexico is the runaway corruption, the massive issues with the drug war, etc. Not specific to gun violence over all. It's runaway, and widespread. Mexico has issues w quality control (bad alcohol stuff like that) as well, etc
But I think we can certainly agree to disagree here. Mexico not for me/my fam, but acceptable for you/yours.
My wife got sick in DCI know two people who recently returned from trips to Mexico and they both got sick. One of them was staying at the Montage in Cabo.
All,
I try to avoid responding to provocative posts when I believe people are not posting in good faith/collaboratively and I suspect are simply jerking my/our chain. I’ve felt that way about our new contributor 4Sunsets since early on. Heavy on opinion and hearsay and light on data, and written in a manner to provoke controversy. To my new TUG colleague, 4Sunsets, if you’re not a troll, your style (respectfully) feels like one.
But 4Sunsets raises some interesting points - and forces a conversation that we should consider, however inelegantly it has been presented.
If we look at TUG ratings, there are 33 Marriott properties rated 8.75 or better (50% of the total portfolio?). There are 8 Vistana properties (50% of the portfolio?) that rate 8.75 or better. Marriott has two properties rated below 8, Vistana didn’t have any.
But Marriott has many properties rated 9.25 or higher and Vistana doesn’t. That’s what struck me. Why wouldn’t Vistana have more, especially considering the caliber of WPORV/WKORV/WSJ? I would rate them comparably to my beloved MOC.
Do we not post about our amazing experiences? Is Vistana slipping? Are the Marriott properties really better? Or do the happy owners just post more?
I continue to think, all Sky is Falling posts aside, that this merger is a win for both parties. I would be really bummed if Wyndham had bought Vistana - owning Worldmark reminds me what a fee-driven/owner unfriendly corporate owner does. I’ve never felt that way about my Marriott’s (or Vistana or HGVC).
I will still be happy to visit any of the Vistana or Marriott elite, but I tend to avoid the older Marriott properties, because they lack some of the upscale features I really like (and pay for). Maybe I would feel the same way if I visited the older the Vistana properties....
Sorry for the random thoughts, I appreciate thoughtful commentary and replies. Thank you.
Best,
Greg
I never bothered to file a Tug review but my rating would pull down the average.
That is a very very interesting observation -- makes me wonder how often a bad experience is not posted on a property.
Contrast that with WKORV/N where I don't think there are any bad rooms (but maybe there are and I just haven't seen them yet).
@TUGBrian had a thread in the About the Rest of TUG forum on this very subject.FWIW, I don’t post reviews for every resort I visit. In fact, I have only posted a small percentage of all the resorts I have visited. This might be worthy of a separate thread, and perhaps we can suggest ways to make it easier and more convenient to post reviews in order to encourage more involvement, etc.
FWIW, I don’t post reviews for every resort I visit. In fact, I have only posted a small percentage of all the resorts I have visited. This might be worthy of a separate thread, and perhaps we can suggest ways to make it easier and more convenient to post reviews in order to encourage more involvement, etc.
Bad rooms can be defined many different ways. The previous post has several issues...in my opinion, the worst is that it was not clean as expected and had several interruptions for additional cleaning. View is routinely considered of high importance, but I would suggest it’s not as important as cleanliness and quality of materials, and I think we generally assume that to be a given so focus on the subjective, such as view.
WKORV-N certainly has bad views, and I’ve had them. But they may not be bad for everyone. And they are always compared to the possible parking lot view at WKORV in building 4 (while each of the few times I’ve stayed in building 4 I have had good views). WKORV also has low level 1-bed units (not part of a LO) that have almost zero view, or a view of the trash. I believe David posted pics from one of these units some years ago.
There are other aspects that make a unit or a resort bad. It’s been mentioned earlier several times that Nanea is a nice resort. I had numerous issues with it, including having to be moved not because of a bad room or poor view, but the incessant irritation and annoyance of the shuttle van beeping that can be heard even within the unit with the windows closed and air conditioning on.
I suspect every resort has a bad room or ten. My recent review of SKR is an example of what can go wrong in other ways.
Even so, I think it’s absurd to consider Westin subpar to Marriott resorts. I’ve stayed at nice and poor Marriotts, and they are nice or poor for different reasons.
I’ve stayed at many Marriotts in exchange, and none have provided even a mid-week tidy cleaning, though it seems some Marriotts do or perhaps only do for owners (why is there such a lack of conformity at Marriott?).
Years ago I stayed at the oldest Marriott timeshare in Orlando and while it was maintained, it was not only old but appeared old...old structure, old bathrooms, not as current as even the oldest Vistana resort etc. Perhaps they thought they didn’t need to do more since, after all, it’s Orlando. Hopefully they’ve renovated since I was there.
I’ve stayed at most of the Palm Springs area Marriotts and while I would not hesitate to return, they were not excellent. They, and the Canyon Villas in Phoenix, seem to share a similar nice, but not great, building quality. I’m not talking about style, which obviously is very subjective, but actual building material quality. Each time I’ve stayed at Canyon Villas I thought the structures would not last. Why is Kierland, Mission Hills, and even SDO better in this regard? It’s not that they couldn’t do better, but they didn’t. I suspect it’s just a way to save cost. On a very minor point, I also thought the same at every Marriott I visited in regards to kitchen appliances and equipment. It’s not that Westin is so much better, but it is noticeably different as compared to Marriott.
When I evaluated which network to purchase, I recall thinking at first that I wanted Marriott since they had a larger network of resorts and the hotels, which was all I knew, I considered mostly similar to Westin/Sheraton. After spending time at several resorts, talking to sales and owners, and reading TUG, I quickly learned that Westin, in essence, was everything Marriott but a little bit better. For example, many resorts have a full small 1-bed with laundry vs a hotel room (which Marriott incorrectly calls a studio) as the lock off unit. I have no hesitation staying in a studio in Hawaii at Westin when traveling with only one other, yet I would be unhappy in a hotel room for a week at a Marriott.
I think the best Marriott timeshare I’ve stayed at is Custom House in Boston. I’ve been there twice, and look forward to visiting again. But it’s an atypical Marriott timeshare, only has 1-bed units, no kitchen (a small sink, a microwave, and a dorm room refrigerator), and though I had to take two elevators to get to the laundry I did not think that detracted from the resort as I would in almost any other setting. It’s definitely unique, and yet it’s a Marriott.
As for other Marriotts, I think the best I’ve stayed at that would be more representative of the network would be Timber Lodge.
I’m also quite critical of Vistana resorts, as I think we all should be. Just read my recent review of SKR for an example. We want all these resorts to be better.
Regardless, comparing Marriott to Westin or Sheraton in terms of which is better for the company seems somewhat foolish to me. This topic was created by a troll to create discord and when confronted finally started including some, but very few, details as to justify the reasons for her strong, and in my opinion baseless, opinion. I think we do ourselves a disservice by trying to make Marriott or Westin worse in our view, when we should instead focus on specific resorts, how they failed and what options may be available to make our next visit better.
I have reservations at ~10 different Marriott hotel chains in the next year that I would not have had pre merger. I expect I’ll like some and be unhappy with others. I’m also hopeful to visit other Marriott timeshares, and I won’t let my opinion that they are likely to be inferior in any way as compared to Westin stop me from having a good time.
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Ken, this is a really good post -- very thoughtful, constructive and honest. I agree with your comments on Canyon Villas and Shadow Ridge -- both appear to be mass produced timeshares where I wake up and --boom -- there are 000's of units with little creativity (Canyon Villas is actually smaller, but feels the same). Some of the Orlando properties have the same feel -- just huge timeshares, and they are what they are. I've not been to Kierland and will look forward to visiting it.
I also rarely post a rating and I should. I absolutely loved WPORV and WKORV/N -- fabulous properties. HRA was amazing, but the property showed the wear and tear -- just like Marriott Aruba Ocean Club did -- I remember posting on this somewhere and wondering if this was a Caribbean thing.
We will see -- but thanks again for your post and your candor.
A curiosity -- if an Overlay was introduced similar to what we have speculated (either enroll your Vistana week and get Marriott points, OR get a fixed number of Marriott Points in exchange for your StarOptions), how many Vistana owners would want to enroll?
I know there's many unknowns, but assume that you can get almost like for like -- (Marriott did invent skimming after all) -- perhaps you can get 4,250 Marriott DC Points for your 148,100 StarOptions? That's enough for a 2BR in Aruba or St. Thomas (but not enough for a 2BR in Hawaii).
Would you enroll your week in the Marriott system, and decide each year whether you wanted to keep it as a Starwood week (or elect the Marriott points)?
Best,
Greg
Thanks.
I see absolutely no reason to pay to convert my weeks into something else, unless there is a definitive advantage. The only metric I use is the number of nights per year I obtain for each week. If I can get the same, or more, by converting then I would be tempted. But really...I’m very happy with Westin and really don’t see any reason to do anything with my 148k week. My two SDOs, on the other hand, I use as traders so if I can add them to the network and, again, get the same or more nights (14, since I always deposit each 1-bed separately) I would be tempted.
Oh, and if it was an expensive conversion I’ll just start laughing. I’m doing just fine with II and VSN and unless that’s going to change, no reason to spend any $$$.
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Ken,
I think the primary advantage will be your ability to rent Marriott points -- I know I wish I could rent StarOptions, but I can't. Granted, availability is a crapshoot, but it would be cool to have 81,000 StarOptions and then rent 148,100 from another owner, and then rent a matching 2BR (or have 67K StarOptions, and then rent 14K to book a 1BR). Starwood doesn't allow rentals but Marriott does. It's perhaps my favorite thing about the Marriott system.
I will be curious when an overlay is rolled out. I'm speculating that initial rollout is XX,XXX Staroptions is worth X,XXX Marriott points. It will be cool if I can rent X,XXX Marriott points, and then book a Starwood week (subject to availability).
Which is the rub....availability. I expect Marriott will respect the 8 month rule, meaning we will still be looking for what what is available from a StarOptions perspective. It will be better if Vistana owners are enticed to enroll their weeks and make them available allowing reservations earlier than 8 months -- from the enrolled weeks only. Inventory availability remains an interesting challenge for this system. Thanks again for your thoughts.
Best,
Greg
Ken,
Current I rent points to/from other owners for about $0.60 per point. Marriott doesn’t charge anything for the transfer itself, it is (currently) a free service. A St Thomas 2BR is 4,125 points in prime season so I can rent points from another owner for $2,400 and then reserve the week.
You’ve certainly made the most of your StarOptions, I like the 20-23 nights from your existing ownership.
We will see - but thanks for your comments.
Best,
Greg
A curiosity -- if an Overlay was introduced similar to what we have speculated (either enroll your Vistana week and get Marriott points, OR get a fixed number of Marriott Points in exchange for your StarOptions), how many Vistana owners would want to enroll?
You are right, nobody wants to give them the deeds. I think that if they offer mass enrollment it may not be practical either if they have to deal with tens of thousands of deed transfers at the same time. A simple enrollment on the other hand does not require a lot of work, just to add details that they already have to the MVC system AND process the payments for the enrollment fees.It would depend on the cost and terms. If the cost is similar to what was offered to Marriott owners in 2010, then I think I would be interested. It's always nice to have options, and I can see staying outside of the Vistana network from time to time. I also recall how upset many Marriott owners were by the skim, but it seems to me that most who elected to pay the fee and enroll their weeks have been satisfied. I recall threads from Marriott owners who enrolled and didn't think they would ever convert to DC, but something would come up and converting ended up being a useful option. This post from Doug is an example:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/to-enroll-or-not-your-thoughts.168738/#post-1275877
The deal breaker for me would be if they want the deeds to my weeks. It's hard for me to envision a scenario where I'd be willing to give them up. Especially Kierland.
Glorian
I am a bit surprised by your position that they may offer a better deal to the resale voluntary resorts, I would have thought it may be the other way around.I don't expect them to require one to turn over their deeds in order to enroll. If they offer some type of enrollment, it will be like they did with the Marriott DC program. You don't sign over your deeds and you just elect points from one year to the next. I would expect an enrollment offer to be very attractive to those that own voluntary resale resorts. Perhaps not as much for those that own Mandatory or direct developer purchases.