Why are time shares a scam??

[4Sunsets]

Jumping into the fray.... I think what is needed in the timeshare industry is a little more openness regarding what buyers are getting into. It'll probably take laws though because timeshare sellers don't actually want buyers to think about what exactly they are getting into.

 

[Brett]

Jumping into the fray.... I think what is needed in the timeshare industry is a little more openness regarding what buyers are getting into. It'll probably take laws though because timeshare sellers don't actually want buyers to think about what exactly they are getting into.

yes, timeshare salespeople commissions are high because of the lack of disclosures. And "get out of timeshare" seminars are apparently lucrative too, this company Omni Ellis http://www.omniellis.com
has been advertising heavily on local TV to get out of timeshares - "1 800 Breakup" just like the free house flipping seminars

 

[Gypsy65]

There are a lot of people in the world and the ones you normally hear from are the ones pissed off and with timeshares it’s the ones who willingly dropped their pants and after the buzz wore off are now saying they were forced

I’m not sure why timeshares have this certain issue about value??

A $45,000 Harley will most likely be worth less than that in 20 years
Omg!! Now add up all the insurance paid. The fuel. Repairs. Etc

Where’s the value? In the use. Period

The same people who bitch about TS are usually the same ones who take the car they owe $20,000 on and trade it for a new one all the while having no issue putting $10,000 of that loan on top of the new one which it itself will drop value as soon as papers are signed

Buy an RV and figure out what that costs you per actual night used over 20 years

 

[AJCts411]

What if...what if the resort has a exit program where if the week owner wanted out, and choose the resorts program to exit versus other options and it was standard in the industry. The owner remains responsible for the maintenance fees until sold (and is anyway). A resort entity (developer/owners association) takes control of the week, and rents it out with 40% of the proceeds returned to reduce the owners maintenance fees. The resort entity lists the units for sale, even for free (owner pays closing), using 30% of the rental proceeds (if rented) to offset costs.

Yes, a bad business model on one hand, but the object is to give a owner or potential buyer a worst case scenario exit option. And there are benefits of sort. The maintenance fees are likely to have fewer delinquencies, the TS industry stops getting bashed as much and might be a few more units available for the points traders. No one is going to get rich, but no one is getting rich as the exits are now, there is no doubt a cost to the current dump and run exit strategies to everyone. On a resort to resort basis most weeks are NOT for sale or being dumped so this is a small issue, people are there at the resort and keeping a list and employing minimal marketing, the costs can be kept small.

So the scenario "I paid all of that $25,000 at the beginning. I've been giving you $1000 m/l every year since. You've given me a week's vacation every year. We're even. You keep the $25,000. I'll give you another $1000, and let's call it quits." is close to reality.

 

[4Sunsets]

There are a lot of people in the world and the ones you normally hear from are the ones pissed off and with timeshares it’s the ones who willingly dropped their pants and after the buzz wore off are now saying they were forced

I’m not sure why timeshares have this certain issue about value??

A $45,000 Harley will most likely be worth less than that in 20 years
Omg!! Now add up all the insurance paid. The fuel. Repairs. Etc

Where’s the value? In the use. Period

The same people who bitch about TS are usually the same ones who take the car they owe $20,000 on and trade it for a new one all the while having no issue putting $10,000 of that loan on top of the new one which it itself will drop value as soon as papers are signed

Buy an RV and figure out what that costs you per actual night used over 20 years

Well, when you buy a $45K Harley, you don't have to pay $60K in MF over 20 years, so there's that. Definitely not a good comparison.

An RV not a good comparison either. If you drop $100K on an RV, you don't have to pay $120K in MF over 20 years for it either (comparing to 2 $50K ts units with MF).

The real issue here is lack of disclosures. AND the fact that YES people are being taken advantage of.

 

[Gypsy65]

Well, when you buy a $45K Harley, you don't have to pay $60K in MF over 20 years, so there's that. Definitely not a good comparison.

An RV not a good comparison either. If you drop $100K on an RV, you don't have to pay $120K in MF over 20 years for it either (comparing to 2 $50K ts units with MF).

The real issue here is lack of disclosures. AND the fact that YES people are being taken advantage of.

I get some don’t understand their purchase or get swayed.
It works the Exact same way with home remodels. Cars. Etc we are all in too much of a hurry and believe everything told to us wether in person or right here on the internet

Bikes and RVs are a good comp
I pay insurance. Fuel. Maintenance Blah blah blah
There’s a cost to buying a $45,000 item and over 20 years paying another $1200 per year just for insurance ( hey. That’s close to MF’s right there in insurance alone ) and fuel. Omg. The fuel can be outrageous and then repairs?? My bikes are all ran by computers. Updates. Glitches. And on and on
$5-600 for an oil change and on and on
But..... until I can’t ride I will continue to be “ suckered “ into ownership of them

Now. Go insure that RV and btw $100,000 won’t get you as nice of an RV as any TS we’ve stayed at. Try $4-500,000. Then put fuel in that beast. 4-6 mpg!!!

 

[OldGuy]

Not sure why you keep asking this question.

The question I keep asking is why owners are opposed to their resorts offering a deedback program, and you are the first to try to answer that queation, thus the keep asking part. Of course, I meant under the circumstances I outlined, which is why I outlined that . . . a good person who has always paid their timeshare bills, and is willing to pay more to compensate the resort for letting them end their obligation.

There are many valid life-reasons people want to do that that have nothing to do with them being deadbeats.

What I have never asked is why someone that wants out of their timeshare would not use a deedback program.

 

[OldGuy]

Definitely not a good comparison.

It's hard to come up with a good comparison, but bad comparisons are quite common.

I hate to address bad examples, but when my Yamaha 80 bit the dust, finally, gracefully, and baling wire could not help it any more, I walked away from it. No more insurance, no more maintenance bills, no more gas and oil . . . .

 

[Gypsy65]

It's hard to come up with a good comparison, but bad comparisons are quite common.

Swing and a miss

The comp was way more spot on than what you want to believe

Get a crayon and paper and do the math

Even real estate is not as great as an investment as some think. I for one have made bank on it at times but do the math here as well

A $300,000 home with $50,000 down payment leaves $250,000
Say 5.5% interest for 30 years and you just paid $675,000 with approx taxes for that $300,000 home plus repairs.
But you raised the kids there. So there’s that

You won’t win. You can’t win.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Swing and a miss

The comp was way more spot on than what you want to believe

Get a crayon and paper and do the math

Even real estate is not as great as an investment as some think. I for one have made bank on it at times but do the math here as well

A $300,000 home with $50,000 down payment leaves $250,000
Say 5.5% interest for 30 years and you just paid $675,000 with approx taxes for that $300,000 home plus repairs.
But you raised the kids there. So there’s that

You won’t win. You can’t win.

From my Murphy's Law book.

You can't win.
You can't break even.
You can't quit the game.

The three main philosophies in life are based on refuting one of these realities.

Capitalism is based on the idea you can win.
Socialism is based on the idea you can break even.
And Mysticism is based on the idea that you can quit the game. . . .

 

[4Sunsets]

Swing and a miss

The comp was way more spot on than what you want to believe

Get a crayon and paper and do the math

Even real estate is not as great as an investment as some think. I for one have made bank on it at times but do the math here as well

A $300,000 home with $50,000 down payment leaves $250,000
Say 5.5% interest for 30 years and you just paid $675,000 with approx taxes for that $300,000 home plus repairs.
But you raised the kids there. So there’s that

You won’t win. You can’t win.

Hilarious analogies all around. Guess in today's world if you can't win with common sense you just say any outlandish thing and make it sound official.

You live in a home. There's no comparison here. Swing and a miss guys. Please keep trying, it's entertaining to see how far some will go to try to deny there are issues that need resolving in the timeshare industry.

 

[talkamotta]

if the salesperson lied or misleads you is it a scam? A lot do. I bought my original timeshare from the developer and the salesman never lied to me. In fact he said one truth that is very true. "Timesharing will make you travel". I didn't know, which is my fault.....that I could buy what I paid $6k for $600 and now they would pay me for that same deal. The next timeshares I bought for A LOT less. The sales people are in the business of selling....not getting you the best deal for you. That's your job, be an informed buyer. Sometimes the buyer thinks those extra benefits are worth paying developer prices. I love timesharing. I pay a good amount of money on traveling but it's worth it to me.

 

[Gypsy65]

Hilarious analogies all around. Guess in today's world if you can't win with common sense you just say any outlandish thing and make it sound official.

You live in a home. There's no comparison here. Swing and a miss guys. Please keep trying, it's entertaining to see how far some will go to try to deny there are issues that need resolving in the timeshare industry.

Sure there is.
The main Bitch is how bad many have been ripped off. My analogies are no different. I live on my bikes

Swing and miss? Oh pleeeeze

I never said people have t been ripped off
What I did say was the value in TS is not the real estate part. As many think. I’m guessing you as well??

The value is personal

 

[talkamotta]

Well, when you buy a $45K Harley, you don't have to pay $60K in MF over 20 years, so there's that. Definitely not a good comparison.

An RV not a good comparison either. If you drop $100K on an RV, you don't have to pay $120K in MF over 20 years for it either (comparing to 2 $50K ts units with MF).

The real issue here is lack of disclosures. AND the fact that YES people are being taken advantage of.

Bought first ts from developer, cost $6k. I now have 8 timeshares and 41k worldmark points. I have less than 20,000 invested in the initial purchases. I just bought the worldmark points so I figure I will pay $10,000 yearly in mfs, between myself and my family we will be taking about 17 weeks of vacation. When I learn how to use worldmark that could go up? I know some would say that's a lot of money for vacations but I prepared for it as part of my retirement.

Others do a LOT better than I do so your numbers aren't accurate.

 

[4Sunsets]

You seem to think I hate ts. Just the opposite is true in fact. It is personal, but not not everyone who gets in understands what they are getting into.

I just think the timeshare industry could clean itself up and save everyone a whole lot of heartache by adding truth in buying statements that spell out exactly the total costs of ownership, the projected costs of fees/mf/etc over 10/20 year periods. A lot of people would NOT buy a ts if they understood exactly what the 20-year cost of ownership was. A lot of people don't understand mf/fee increases and total costs.

Tell people upfront:

Your total cost today is $70000. To use this ts, your year 1 cost with projected fees are

$3500 MF, $500 taxes, $450 membership, $200 exchange fees for a total of $4650 per year w approx increases of 2-3% / year

Then spell it out exactly the approximate costs :

Year 1 is $4650
Year 2. is $4925
...
Year 20 is $8210

Total 20 year cost is $203895 approximately

 

[Gypsy65]

I get that
But they are in business to sell. Not explain all the negatives

Back to the car thing. If a dealer told you all the insurance fees. Repairs. And how much it would depreciate then they wouldn’t sell anything either

My point of the thread is I don’t get why people feel TS’s are a scam because the buyer had no idea what they were doing but we buy cars, bikes, boats etc and just take the loss as part of life

 

[4Sunsets]

I get that
But they are in business to sell. Not explain all the negatives

Back to the car thing. If a dealer told you all the insurance fees. Repairs. And how much it would depreciate then they wouldn’t sell anything either

My point of the thread is I don’t get why people feel TS’s are a scam because the buyer had no idea what they were doing but we buy cars, bikes, boats etc and just take the loss as part of life

An honest dealer will absolutely tell you all that. Heck, almost all dealers tell you all that upfront. It's the #1 reason they sell care packages. AND you can't leave w/o insurance, so yes you will know the insurance ost as well.

 

[Gypsy65]

An honest dealer will absolutely tell you all that. Heck, almost all dealers tell you all that upfront. It's the #1 reason they sell care packages. AND you can't leave w/o insurance, so yes you will know the insurance ost as well.

Huh

I’ve owned many many new vehicles and in fact I sold them for awhile years ago

Never once has a dealer told me the costs of owning. Not ford. Not Chevy. Not Mercedes and so on
I had to do my own research as to insurance costs not the dealer
I my self had to see what my vette would cost Vs my car or truck never any dealer. All I needed for them was proof

And the dealer never told me what my insurance rates would be a year or five down the road

Ugh

Don’t get your point???
It’s up to each person to do their own research and make their own educated decisions

Every year my insurance goes up. Repair rates increase. Fuel goes up

Cost of owning. And my point is that there is a cost to owning EVERYTHING

Had someone held my ha d an told me fuel would go up and Insurance would rise along with maintenance then I would have maybe kept my old mercury

 

[4Sunsets]

Huh

I’ve owned many many new vehicles and in fact I sold them for awhile years ago

Never once has a dealer told me the costs of owning. Not ford. Not Chevy. Not Mercedes and so on
I had to do my own research as to insurance costs not the dealer
I my self had to see what my vette would cost Vs my car or truck never any dealer. All I needed for them was proof

And the dealer never told me what my insurance rates would be a year or five down the road

Ugh

Don’t get your point???
It’s up to each person to do their own research and make their own educated decisions

Every year my insurance goes up. Repair rates increase. Fuel goes up

Cost of owning. And my point is that there is a cost to owning EVERYTHING

Had someone held my ha d an told me fuel would go up and Insurance would rise along with maintenance then I would have maybe kept my old mercury

Wasn't my point, was the excuse you made up about cars and dealers on behalf of timeshare developers. Nice switch and bait, almost like a ts salesman.

More to the point, ts are a unique category. 90% of people don't understand the legal contracts and obligations related to ts ownership. You're getting off topic.

 

[Gypsy65]

Wasn't my point, was the excuse you made up about cars and dealers on behalf of timeshare developers. Nice switch and bait, almost like a ts salesman.

More to the point, ts are a unique category. 90% of people don't understand the legal contracts and obligations related to ts ownership. You're getting off topic.

It’s my topic
I started this thread!!!

 

[4Sunsets]

It’s my topic
I started this thread!!!

Doesn't mean you can go off topic on side journeys to Epcott.

 

[OldGuy]

 

[TravelTime]

Wasn't my point, was the excuse you made up about cars and dealers on behalf of timeshare developers. Nice switch and bait, almost like a ts salesman.

More to the point, ts are a unique category. 90% of people don't understand the legal contracts and obligations related to ts ownership. You're getting off topic.

90% of most people do not understand any contracts at all, sign without reading, trust the salespeople and racketeers, do not know how to maintain their finances or even do basic algebra. I think this is a problem across all industries.

 

[Jan M.]

Every single dollar we spend is a decision and with that comes the responsibility to make an informed and wise decision. Does anyone do that with every single dollar they spend? Of course not. Many of us had parents who tried to teach us and guide us. Investment consulting, financial advisers, debt management are big businesses. Consumer Reports made a business out of doing our homework for us when it comes to purchasing many things. We pay people for the knowledge we don't have; to do the work we can't or don't want to do. With the internet and a little time and effort we can now find out for ourselves just about anything we want to know. Even with all the resources available to us there are still no guarantees that a seemingly good decision will turn out well or that a bad decision will turn out poorly. And the saying that "there is a sucker born every minute" will always be true.

We bought developer for some but not all of our timeshare purchases so we always accepted that we fell into the sucker category. However back when we were first buying in 2002 I wouldn't have touched resale on a dare. But in time with more computer experience, more information available on the internet and learning on TUG I started dipping my toes into the resale waters. Reading the posts on this thread brought up an interesting discussion with my husband.

1. We bought our first brand new car in 39 years of being married when my husband retired last year. We always bought good used cars and kept them. Five in 39 years. If we had been buying new cars every 4 or 5 years like many/most people do we would have spent about the same amount as we've spent on all our timeshare purchases, developer and resale, and have nothing to show for it. If I had it to do over I would make that same financial mistake again. Funny that people who buy new cars, and more expensive cars than we do, would call us fools for what we've spent on timeshares. The timeshare experiences and memories we've made have given us more pleasure than any car ever could. Our families, our son, DIL and granddaughters also have those experiences and memories too. And we will continue to have those wonderful stays and make more memories.

2. We made a list and counted up the number of resorts we've stayed at over our years of owning. And that number is 50! My husband asked me if I had any idea how many nights we stayed in the timeshares. I'm a numbers person but we've owned for 17 years and even I can't come up with a guesstimate. I've posted before that my husband lived out of the timeshares for 17 weeks and a few nights in 2010 and 2011. It was after he he was downsized from his job up North and moved to Florida to take a new job for the few years he needed before retirement. That alone was 122 nights and we took vacations that year before he lost his job. January was Florida, March was Las Vegas, May was Myrtle Beach and a few nights in July over the 4th was DC. Had he not lost his job September or October would have been another trip either back to Vegas or Myrtle Beach. Except for the few nights in DC that had been our routine of vacation time for at least the previous five years. And that isn't even counting the trips our son took. A few nights in DC for a conference for several years and once he turned 21 and could check in on his own there were trips to Vegas, Myrtle Beach and Florida with friends and his then fiancee. After we got settled in Florida because my husband covered all of Florida from Sarasota over to Fort Pierce and clear down to Key West whenever I found a good reservation and he could arrange a few days work that area we went. Almost every paid holiday or unpaid holiday we combined work for him with a stay until he retired last year. Sometimes he would take a a vacation day to give him a long or longer weekend when there was a paid holiday. We've been using well over a 100 nights a year in the timeshares for the last 9 years alone. Once in a while we have stays that cost us more than $50 a night but not very often at all. Most of the time the cost of our stays range from $25-$40 a night. And I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of times we've stayed in a studio. Mostly two bedroom units followed by one bedroom units with some three and four bedroom units in there too.

So yeah we were scammed and were suckers and it's a darned shame about how it's worked out for us. Lol!

 

[LannyPC]

Cost of owning. And my point is that there is a cost to owning EVERYTHING.

Which is why I get a little bit miffed at these people who come all over social media and emphatically state, "NEVER buy a timeshare because of all the expenses involved!" but will quickly go and buy a car, TV, cell phone, etc.