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Marriott/Vistana overlay

bobpark56

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I just saw this comment from the CEO included in the VAC quarterly update:

“Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott Western and Sheridan brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product for. However, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”

So, a program is in the works. Of course no details are available at this time, so we will have to wait until some time in 2020.

Best regards.

Mike
The guy said "Sheridan." Sounds like he does not know what he is talking about.
 

dioxide45

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The guy said "Sheridan." Sounds like he does not know what he is talking about.
Someone mentioned earlier, it was probably an error made by an offshore transcriptionist. It seems that this was copy and pasted from seekingalpha.com. They also spelled Westin as Western. The actual transcript on the VAC website doesn't have this error.
 
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bobpark56

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Every TS system has great properties and properties that lag and need renovation. I just read about an MVC in Colorado in the Marriott forum that someone declared "is stuck in the 1980's!"

Don't confuse resale value with the quality of the property. Harborside and St. John have high MF and St. John is recovering from a hurricane so some owners want out as they may be attempting to avoid assessments. This is driving down prices. With an overlay, MVC owners should be delighted that they can pay a lower MVC maint fee and trade into these properties without hurricane assessments.

Although MVC has more locations, IMO many MVC properties are in locations that we would never want to visit (e.g. New Jersey, Fl coast, Myrtle Beach), or have HGVC or Vistana alternatives in the same location.
"Avoid assessments?" "St. John? I guess you don't know that we in the Virgin Grand HOA were adequately insured, and I think that was true for the other HOAs as well. Not only are we not foreseeing assessments, but Vistana gave us our StarOptions back for missed stays during the post-hurricane maintenance. From what i have seen posted. Marriott owners at St Thomas were not treated as well.
 

SteelerGal

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It will be interesting to look back in 5yrs to see how Marriott incorporated Westin/Sheraton as well as Hyatt.
 

CalGalTraveler

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"Avoid assessments?" "St. John? I guess you don't know that we in the Virgin Grand HOA were adequately insured, and I think that was true for the other HOAs as well. Not only are we not foreseeing assessments, but Vistana gave us our StarOptions back for missed stays during the post-hurricane maintenance. From what i have seen posted. Marriott owners at St Thomas were not treated as well.

I am glad that worked out for the HOA. Sounds like having insurance saved the day and Vistana did right by its owners. My reference was speculation as to why prices have dropped. Perhaps its perception about an assessment? Can you provide other reasons for prices dropping?

P.S. Although we haven't stayed at either TS resort, I love the island of St John and would take it over St. Thomas any day. I hope to go back to visit.
 

dioxide45

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I am glad that worked out for the HOA. Sounds like having insurance saved the day and Vistana did right by its owners. My reference was speculation as to why prices have dropped. Perhaps its perception about an assessment? Can you provide other reasons for prices dropping?

P.S. Although we haven't stayed at either TS resort, I love the island of St John and would take it over St. Thomas any day. I hope to go back to visit.
Prices have dropped because MFs are astronomical. Low season weeks are the ones hit the most, they pay the same MF for a lower value time of the year.
 

GregT

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Don't believe the transaction has much, if any, benefit to MVC owners.....

I believe the transaction benefits all MVC owners, simply because Marriott is now a more stable, healthier organization, and we need MVC to succeed.

- Stable recurring revenues (from exchange fees, rental of II inventory, and membership fees) help to reduce the dependence on asset sales.

- however because asset sales are the juice for MVC, there are now hundreds of thousands of new potential purchasers of points for Marriott. That can sustain MVC for the next 5-7 years as they work through Vistana owners. HGVC next.

I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because it opens up new travel destinations.

- Nassau
- St. John
- Kauai northside
- Cancun
- Cabo San Lucas
- Increased access to Phoenix
- Expanded opportunity for hotel conversions (Starwood hotels)

I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because MVC now controls II and they can be creative.

- Expand preference to Marriott & Starwood?
- Redeem Studio for points and deposit the 1BR into II?
- Mine owner trade history? Maybe I get a call from II one day telling me that a trade I’ve executed before is available - “last year you traded a Ko Olina Studio for a 1Br Park City in Fall. We’ve just received a Park City deposit with no matching trade request. Would you like it? If not do you want to buy [travel insurance/points/platinum membership]”
- maybe they send me an owner survey after a trade and ask me if I would like to be contacted for that scenario? And pay $49 for this option?

Of all of these things, the most important thing to me is the financial health of Marriott. I don’t mean stock price, I mean the health of the mother ship. We need a viable management company that manages our second home professionally and efficiently. I don’t mind being asked to pay extra fees to get extra stuff. Or I can choose to not pay the fees and keep my basic ownership (which I really like).

But i think there is benefit for all owners - MVC and Vistana alike.

Best,

Greg
 
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4Sunsets

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I believe the transaction benefits all MVC owners, simply because Marriott is now a more stable, healthier organization, and we need MVC to succeed.

- Stable recurring revenues (from exchange fees, rental of II inventory, and membership fees) help to reduce the dependence on asset sales.

- however because asset sales are the juice for MVC, there are now hundreds of thousands of new potential purchasers of points for Marriott. That can sustain MVC for the next 5-7 years as they work through Vistana owners. HGVC next.

I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because it opens up new travel destinations.

- Nassau
- St. John
- Kauai northside
- Cancun
- Cabo San Lucas
- Increased access to Phoenix
- Expanded opportunity for hotel conversions (Starwood hotels)

I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because MVC now controls II and they can be creative.

- Expand preference to Marriott & Starwood?
- Redeem Studio for points and deposit the 1BR into II?
- Mine owner trade history? Maybe I get a call from II one day telling me that a trade I’ve executed before is available - “last year you traded a Ko Olina Studio for a 1Br Park City in Fall. We’ve just received a Park City deposit with no matching trade request. Would you like it? If not do you want to buy [travel insurance/points/platinum membership]”
- maybe they send me an owner survey after a trade and ask me if I would like to be contacted for that scenario? And pay $49 for this option?

Of all of these things, the most important thing to me is the financial health of Marriott. I don’t mean stock price, I mean the health of the mother ship. We need a viable management company that manages our second home professionally and efficiently. I don’t mind being asked to pay extra fees to get extra stuff. Or I can’t choose to not pay the fees and keep my basic ownership (which I really like).

But i think there is benefit for all owners - MVC and Vistana alike.

Best,

Greg

I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.

Marriott's most recent quarter is a prelude of what's to come... and in case you don't follow the stock, it wasn't good.

I won't argue that Marriott is an excellent management company. That's rather a key point of the argument against the Vistana properties, which haven't been managed for a really long time and are in sore need of it after years of neglect.

Marriott and MVC were both fiscally and financially healthy before these mergers. On the hotel side, Marriott has made a significant number of missteps. If MVC repeats those same missteps, the motherships are going to sink and no life preserver is going to save any of us.
 

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Prices have dropped because MFs are astronomical. Low season weeks are the ones hit the most, they pay the same MF for a lower value time of the year.

Yes, the MF for St John/Bahamas and the rest of the Carib Vistana are astronomical. AND from what I understand some owners do fear an assessment is due, which is why there are sales for $1 that no one is buying, not even Marriott.
 

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It will be interesting to look back in 5yrs to see how Marriott incorporated Westin/Sheraton as well as Hyatt.

It will be interesting... MF will have at least doubled by then.
 

GregT

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I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.

I don’t follow the stock, other than to read the disclosures and see what management is saying about expansion (and integration of Vistana)

With apologies, I don’t understand the statement that “it’s a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden”.

Can you explain what that means? I don’t see the cost to MVC owners that you suspect is coming and would like to see if I’ve missed something. Thank you.

Best,

Greg
 

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I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.

Marriott's most recent quarter is a prelude of what's to come... and in case you don't follow the stock, it wasn't good.

in the last 3 months: HGVC down 11%, MVC up 5%

upload_2019-5-14_22-14-15.png
 

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I won't argue that Marriott is an excellent management company. That's rather a key point of the argument against the Vistana properties, which haven't been managed for a really long time and are in sore need of it after years of neglect.

What advice do you have for TUGgers? Buy Vistana resorts and sell MVC, do the opposite, buy both, sell both, do nothing?
 

GregT

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What advice do you have for TUGgers? Buy Vistana resorts and sell MVC, do the opposite, buy both, sell both, do nothing?

Honestly Danny, for XX years, I’ve seen posters show up and post broadly on their pet peeves and suggest the sky is falling.

Timeshares aren’t for everyone - and people’s personal evolution can exceed the benefits of timeshares.

I don’t follow sunsets issue and am curious. Hopefully we can help and also hoping it’s not just the latest of many jerking our chain.

Best,

Greg
 

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St John and Bahamas we've been to. Fairly nice, but people are trying like crazy to sell out of there for pocket change. Some have been listed for a few $$$, and not sold. Marriott already has plenty of ski destinations in all price / cost ranges and doesn't really need any more.
as others said, the resale price and the quality of the resort are not necessarily correlated. For example there are tens of MVC resorts on eBay and most of them are listed for as little as $1. It is also important to note that most Vistana resorts do not have ROFR and this has to be taken into consideration when comparing resale prices.

upload_2019-5-16_8-52-59.png
 
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SteelerGal

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as others said, the resale price and the quality of the resort are not necessarily correlated. For example there are tens of MVC resorts on eBay and most of them are listed for as little as $1. It is also important to note that most Vistana resorts do not have ROFR and this has to be taken into consideration when comparing resale prices.

View attachment 11829
Only my HGVC cost us over $1k. I was able to p/u WKV and Hyatt for transfer fees. DSV was less than $400 because it has 2019 usage included.

Marriott is smart. They can tier their offerings and provide access to all via a program. The cost savings will come when consolidate all the departments and utilize one System.
 
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I don’t follow the stock, other than to read the disclosures and see what management is saying about expansion (and integration of Vistana)

With apologies, I don’t understand the statement that “it’s a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden”.

Can you explain what that means? I don’t see the cost to MVC owners that you suspect is coming and would like to see if I’ve missed something. Thank you.

Best,

Greg

IMHO, the properties purchased need a lot of work, especially in Hawaii and Carib. The properties were sold to Vistana in need of work, the work largely wasn't accomplished while owned by Vistana, so we're talking about a period of years where less than stellar management occurred. Now MVC owns these properties and the MF related to many of these properties is already very high, so high in fact some properties in St John / Bahamas etc are being sold for pocket change and not selling.

The purchase also doubles (or more) inventory that can be booked, but at many less desirable properties than primary Marriott properties. Thus, there may soon be many unhappy Marriott owners who will soon find that they can't book into favorite resorts because the inventory is gone.
 

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Only my HGVC cost us over $1k. I was able to p/u WKV and Hyatt for transfer fees. DSV was less than $400 because it has 2019 usage included.

Marriott is smart. They can tier their offerings and provide access to all via a program. The cost savings will come when consolidate all the departments and utilize one System.


Cost savings for Marriott hotel side, which performs the management. Not necessarily, the MVC side, which rents the management. Regarding cost savings, one would think that as a particular resort scales, cost savings would occur that helps reduce MF. However, as witnessed by years of history, this is not the case, Marriott simply continues to increase the management fees to absorb any cost savings. Marriott KoOlina is a prime example. If economies of scale were ever going to result in cost savings and reduce overhead/MF, surely this massive resort would have. Not so, at 28K+ unit weeks, on the way to 40K unit weeks, overhead costs and MF have never skipped a beat in a steady rise.
 

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as others said, the resale price and the quality of the resort are not necessarily correlated. For example there are tens of MVC resorts on eBay and most of them are listed for as little as $1. It is also important to note that most Vistana resorts do not have ROFR and this has to be taken into consideration when comparing resale prices.

View attachment 11829

Some of that cheap inventory on all sides does NOT exist. Redweek Verified listings are a better source.

Never forget the inventory is manipulated on all sides, people are gaming the system all the time by listing non-existent inventory.
 

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Some of that cheap inventory on all sides does NOT exist.

Never forget the inventory is manipulated on all sides, people are gaming the system all the time by listing non-existent inventory.

Wow, we have a 360 degree conspiracy theory here!

I do not know about others, but i would like to know more about your experience in the TS industry, either as an owner or as an insider. I am not trying to be stingy, just that you are making extreme (IMO) statements that do not seem to bear any credibility to me, except if you have a very solid background in this area.
 

JIMinNC

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Cost savings for Marriott hotel side, which performs the management. Not necessarily, the MVC side, which rents the management. Regarding cost savings, one would think that as a particular resort scales, cost savings would occur that helps reduce MF. However, as witnessed by years of history, this is not the case, Marriott simply continues to increase the management fees to absorb any cost savings. Marriott KoOlina is a prime example. If economies of scale were ever going to result in cost savings and reduce overhead/MF, surely this massive resort would have. Not so, at 28K+ unit weeks, on the way to 40K unit weeks, overhead costs and MF have never skipped a beat in a steady rise.

A couple corrections/clarifications:

1.) Marriott International hotels does not do the management for MVC timeshares. Marriott Vacations Worldwide, the timeshare company, acts as the property manager for all MVC timeshares and earns the management fee for doing so. They just pay a licensing fee to Marriott International hotels for use of the brands, access to the Marriott.com reservation system for rentals, and for participation in Bonvoy, etc..

2.) At most, if not all, MVC resorts the management fee is set as a specific % of HOA operating costs. So, the management fee increases in direct proportion to the operating costs. Obviously, this means MVC has no real incentive to keep costs in line, but it also means they at least have to justify cost increases in some way. They can't just arbitrarily increase the management fee. When we owned in the Diamond system prior to our MVC ownership, they seemed to be able to increase their management fee at their own whim. By contrast, the Marriott approach is refreshing.
 
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4Sunsets

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Wow, we have a 360 degree conspiracy theory here!

I do not know about others, but i would like to know more about your experience in the TS industry, either as an owner or as an insider. I am not trying to be stingy, just that you are making extreme (IMO) statements that do not seem to bear any credibility to me, except if you have a very solid background in this area.


Well, go try to buy some of that and good luck with it. As for background, read my signature, been around 25 years.

And while certainly a fun parlor trick to debase someone for supposed lack of experience, one should first offer up a background on their copious amounts of experience in the matter first. It's simply good etiquette.
 
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bobpark56

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I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.

Marriott's most recent quarter is a prelude of what's to come... and in case you don't follow the stock, it wasn't good.

I won't argue that Marriott is an excellent management company. That's rather a key point of the argument against the Vistana properties, which haven't been managed for a really long time and are in sore need of it after years of neglect.

Marriott and MVC were both fiscally and financially healthy before these mergers. On the hotel side, Marriott has made a significant number of missteps. If MVC repeats those same missteps, the motherships are going to sink and no life preserver is going to save any of us.

Where the heck do you get "years of neglect?" We stay 2 to 3 weeks every year at Westin Lagunamar, and every year the resort has gotten better, and the management continues to invest more in it to improve things for owners and keep maintenance fees down. This has been quite well described to owners who attend the annual January HOA meeting. I think you speak from too much ignorance.
 

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IMHO, the properties purchased need a lot of work, especially in Hawaii and Carib. The properties were sold to Vistana in need of work, the work largely wasn't accomplished while owned by Vistana, so we're talking about a period of years where less than stellar management occurred.

not sure what properties you are talking about. Vistana Signature Experiences, formerly named Starwood Vacation Network, built the Hawaii properties -- they did not buy them from someone else. Same applies to a vast majority of the other locations. The few exceptions include hotel properties that were converted, but i think most of those came from Starwood Hotels.

and i have no idea what properties you claim were not kept up to date, and needed a lot of work, etc...
 
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