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What do you think the average annual income for DVC owners is?

JohnB3

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I think increased pricing is doing 2 things at disney the first is easy, DIS (the company) increases its corporate profit and ends up with happy shareholders. But I think as importantly it helps control crowds, WDW is a world wide experience. we were last there in January and the parks were crowded, I heard a lot of portuguese being spoken while I was there, why? its school break in Brazil and many families were visiting. The parks seem to be always full and if I were Bob Iger (DIS CEO) I would increase pricing up to the point I effected demand, I for one prefer the parks with a bit smaller crowds (even though I hate the prices :)) The best I could think to do was to buy both a DVC resale and some DIS stock but I'm fortunate and I know it.
 

Jason245

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The economics of owning dvc (without taking into account Disney magic) dont make sense in any way shape or form in the retail or resale market.

That being said this product is designed for the upper middle class (I would argue around 1 to 200k for a family of 4) but is generally sold to the aspirational upper class (probably the 50 to 150k crowd ).

People finance these things like houses for 10 years at above average interest rates to make it "affordable"...

This is observation(from the industry as a whole) but I dont have anything to point to.

A average family of 4 would probably be better off renting something off property and putting the extra 2 to 3k for the week in dvc premium towards a special on property experience(e.g. paying for the private guide who will literally walk you through whatever park you want fast passing or backdoor you on every ride)..

Just my opinion..



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Dean

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The economics of owning dvc (without taking into account Disney magic) dont make sense in any way shape or form in the retail or resale market.

That being said this product is designed for the upper middle class (I would argue around 1 to 200k for a family of 4) but is generally sold to the aspirational upper class (probably the 50 to 150k crowd ).

People finance these things like houses for 10 years at above average interest rates to make it "affordable"...

This is observation(from the industry as a whole) but I dont have anything to point to.

A average family of 4 would probably be better off renting something off property and putting the extra 2 to 3k for the week in dvc premium towards a special on property experience(e.g. paying for the private guide who will literally walk you through whatever park you want fast passing or backdoor you on every ride)..

Just my opinion..



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That is not c/w my observations and experience. I've been participating with DVC related boards since before there was a formal internet. Obviously buying requires a certain amount of assets but I think it's far less than you think it is. There certainly are those that fit into your groups but my experience suggest that most members are just working people who enjoy Disney and make it a priority. I'd equate it to buying a car. If your only option is to buy at a buy here/pay here lot you're likely not going to be able to buy DVC so in that regard I'd agree there's a floor but if you can buy a decent car, you can probably buy DVC if it's important to you. Whether you should or not becomes another discussion.
 

Jason245

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That is not c/w my observations and experience. I've been participating with DVC related boards since before there was a formal internet. Obviously buying requires a certain amount of assets but I think it's far less than you think it is. There certainly are those that fit into your groups but my experience suggest that most members are just working people who enjoy Disney and make it a priority. I'd equate it to buying a car. If your only option is to buy at a buy here/pay here lot you're likely not going to be able to buy DVC so in that regard I'd agree there's a floor but if you can buy a decent car, you can probably buy DVC if it's important to you. Whether you should or not becomes another discussion.


Like I said, Product was designed for upper middle class, but is being primarily bought by people in the middle class.. (I used the term aspirational upper class because generally the cash outflow comittments do not make sound financial sense for most middle class families) . In South Florida everyone seems drives around in a shiny new BMW/Lexus/Mercedes that only costs $5-700 a month...even the people earning 15 bucks an hour... I don't know how they make it work, but I can never get the math to work and I make much more than that.
 

Dean

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Like I said, Product was designed for upper middle class, but is being primarily bought by people in the middle class.. (I used the term aspirational upper class because generally the cash outflow comittments do not make sound financial sense for most middle class families) . In South Florida everyone seems drives around in a shiny new BMW/Lexus/Mercedes that only costs $5-700 a month...even the people earning 15 bucks an hour... I don't know how they make it work, but I can never get the math to work and I make much more than that.
But you qualified it to $1-200K and that's where I differ. IIRC they target their tours to $75K and above as did Marriott the last I saw but don't restrict people from touring that are under that like some companies do. If you use a more traditional definition of upper middle class, I'd agree with you. That puts it to above $75K nationally but for many parts of the country it probably stretches down to under $60K statistically. Whether they should do so is a different discussion, many shouldn't buy DVC that have, same for high end cars.
 

bogey21

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The amount of income is only important as to how much borrowing capacity it will support. While my kids were growing up I borrowed to take them on vacations (including on-site Disney); send them around the world on mission trips; and pay for their college educations. Once they were gone I paid off the debts and now I don't owe anybody anything. And in case you wonder my kids worked from the time they were 13-14 or so but didn't earn anywhere near enough to cover the stuff I paid for. Would I do it again? Absolutely...

George
 

Jason245

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But you qualified it to $1-200K and that's where I differ. IIRC they target their tours to $75K and above as did Marriott the last I saw but don't restrict people from touring that are under that like some companies do. If you use a more traditional definition of upper middle class, I'd agree with you. That puts it to above $75K nationally but for many parts of the country it probably stretches down to under $60K statistically. Whether they should do so is a different discussion, many shouldn't buy DVC that have, same for high end cars.
What the product is designed for vs who they target is a whole different story..

It is like whole life insurance... for most people there is no purpose in having that type of a policy, but because of a number of reasons, they target people who dont need it and those people buy...

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Dean

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What the product is designed for vs who they target is a whole different story..

It is like whole life insurance... for most people there is no purpose in having that type of a policy, but because of a number of reasons, they target people who dont need it and those people buy...

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LOL, can't argue there other than the example. Maybe if you'd used annuity, the % of people who should buy whole life is likely zero. The target is who they can sell to but they don't want to spin their wheels with those that can't qualify or get the money together. Their main target audience is simply those who go and to Disney and want to return regardless of income. But to buy one either needs the funds or to qualify for a loan. It's been quite a while since I saw their income target for tours but I'm thinking it was $75K. With other timeshares I've seen anywhere from $40K to $75 K along the way for tours but I'm sure there are others outside that limit, likely Ritz and Four seasons. I'm sure we're just arguing nuances. And I agree with an earlier point you made that what people do and what they should do are very often 2 different things (BMW) when 3/4 of people in the US have more month than money. If only those that should buy a timeshare did so, there would be no timeshares anywhere.
 

TravelTime

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I think many people could finance a $25K to $35K purchase regardless of income. I think Disney is targeting families in the upper middle class. They would make no money targeting anything less. Disney has the resources to hire experts in marketing and they know what they are doing.
 

Jason245

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LOL, can't argue there other than the example. Maybe if you'd used annuity, the % of people who should buy whole life is likely zero. The target is who they can sell to but they don't want to spin their wheels with those that can't qualify or get the money together. Their main target audience is simply those who go and to Disney and want to return regardless of income. But to buy one either needs the funds or to qualify for a loan. It's been quite a while since I saw their income target for tours but I'm thinking it was $75K. With other timeshares I've seen anywhere from $40K to $75 K along the way for tours but I'm sure there are others outside that limit, likely Ritz and Four seasons. I'm sure we're just arguing nuances. And I agree with an earlier point you made that what people do and what they should do are very often 2 different things (BMW) when 3/4 of people in the US have more month than money. If only those that should buy a timeshare did so, there would be no timeshares anywhere.
I know a number of executives who buy whole life.. it is a great way for them to wrap tons of money into tax free wealth transfer Investment vehicles.....

As for annuities..the simple ones are probably best for most Americans (the ones that pay you till you die and then dont do anything else)..that is after all what social security is..

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DebBrown

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About 15 years ago we had a family reunion in Orlando. We stayed in 6 Marriott 2-br units, 4 of which were bonus weeks. Back then they sold multi-day non-expiring passes and there were no fingerprint scans, etc. We bought a bunch of 10-day park hopper tickets at about $20/day. Everybody shared them. We still have a handful of those passes and have been using them every since but I think we are down to about 10 or 12 days left. We talked about doing a similar trip with the new crop of grandchildren but I don't know if anyone can afford the cost of admission even if we get good deals on the timeshare units. I'd rather fund my retirement plan that spent thousands on a week of vacation.
 

Dean

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I know a number of executives who buy whole life.. it is a great way for them to wrap tons of money into tax free wealth transfer Investment vehicles.....

As for annuities..the simple ones are probably best for most Americans (the ones that pay you till you die and then dont do anything else)..that is after all what social security is..

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Whole life to SS, now that's a good comparison. Similar returns.
 

pedro47

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I am going to change the direction of this thread just a little. I feel the Disney campgrounds will be looked at in a few years and that site will be a new style Disney Resort or hotel..
IMHO.
 

djohn06

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About 15 years ago we had a family reunion in Orlando. We stayed in 6 Marriott 2-br units, 4 of which were bonus weeks. Back then they sold multi-day non-expiring passes and there were no fingerprint scans, etc. We bought a bunch of 10-day park hopper tickets at about $20/day. Everybody shared them. We still have a handful of those passes and have been using them every since but I think we are down to about 10 or 12 days left. We talked about doing a similar trip with the new crop of grandchildren but I don't know if anyone can afford the cost of admission even if we get good deals on the timeshare units. I'd rather fund my retirement plan that spent thousands on a week of vacation.

The death of Non Ex tickets hurt us too. I am holding onto 4 park days non ex tixs and 6 water park days too.

To the Op:

In my II account, there are currently 2 bedroom Marriott and Sheraton Vistana vacation weeks for as little as $357 (I am Platinum so I get the $50 discount). I even saw 3 bedrooms for $510 a week at Marriott Grande Vista.

If a family of four stickers to base rate tickets, 6 day ticket cost $1,600.

I'm from the Midwest so your typical Midwestern is perfectly fine driving up to 18 hours in any direction.

This puts a disney trip still in the range of any other typical beach vacation trip.

Sure it's not on Disney property, but at the same time not everyone goes to the beach and gets an oceanfront view.
 

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I am lost with this thread.
 

Lisa P

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Up until 2013, many Disney World admission tickets had no expiration date. If you purchased a multi-day ticket and didn't use up all of the days, leftover days could be used on a future trip. It was an incentive to return soon. We bought 10-day tickets with add-ons, park hopper plus 10 water park admissions, none of which expired. Then we spread out the usage, visiting the theme parks for 2-3 days and a water park on relaxation days. We vacationed at WDW (including restaurants, boat/bike rentals, & shopping) for 3-4 weeks over each 2-year period using one set of tickets. WDW became a regular go-to place for vacations. Same with many of our friends.

When Disney dropped the non-expiry option from ticket sales, there were no longer any unused days to encourage a quick revisit. We (and many others) started increasing the delay between Disney trips. The tickets went up in price a usual amount but when compared with how we had used the non-expiry tickets, the price jump for a Disney family vacation was steep. For some of our friends, Disney World became a One-And-Done destination. Hope that makes sense.
 

Cyberc

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I understand why Disney is increasing the tickets etc. We went this February and the crowds were insane or at least the crowds was much worse than we are use to. We normally go in May and Sept and there the crowds are much less. Increasing the prices lessens the demand at some point - creating a better experience for the ones that can afford to go. I will also price out some families or they might need to save longer for that disney trip before they can afford to go.

Is it fair - perhaps not. Its all about supply and demand. Disney is not forcing anyone to go. The thing with disney is that a lot of people have strong emotions about disney what is fair and unfair and how they believe things should be. When it comes down to it, Disney is a business and they need to make money for their shareholders - not make everyone feel good. If they can do both great.

I would love for Disney to lower their prices but I also know if they did, I wouldn't go. Why? because of the crowds would be much more insane. Getting 3 rides on the FP+ and then not being able to try anything else because of long waits of 1-2-3-4 hours. Thats not my idea of fun.

As the prices most likely will continue to increase at some point the middle class or upper middle class might not be able to go as often as they would like to. But I expect that when they do go their experience will be better in terms of crowds.

Its not in the cards that a DVC owner should go to the parks when staying onsite. For our next stay in 2020 we will most likely not hit the parks.
 

Lisa P

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When it comes down to it, Disney is a business and they need to make money for their shareholders - not make everyone feel good. ... Its not in the cards that a DVC owner should go to the parks when staying onsite. For our next stay in 2020 we will most likely not hit the parks.
Agree with much of this post. Not sure we're in the majority here. ;)
 

chalee94

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Its not in the cards that a DVC owner should go to the parks when staying onsite. For our next stay in 2020 we will most likely not hit the parks.

Yep. Last year, I got a DVC discounted annual pass and went for 5 weeks in a 12 month period. My next trip will be park-free - just nice restaurants with fun theming in a warmer environment... I do miss the non-expire tickets that allowed 2-3 days at a time with the ability to save the remaining days for years down the road (but I can see why Disney wanted to put the kibosh on them...)
 

ljmiii

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I understand why Disney is increasing the tickets etc. We went this February and the crowds were insane or at least the crowds was much worse than we are use to...
I don't know when in February you went to WDW but the crowds around Presidents' Week are third only to those around Easter and Christmas/New Years. For better or worse, it's the calendar we've been stuck with for the past decade or so...
Increasing the prices lessens the demand at some point - creating a better experience for the ones that can afford to go. It will also price out some families or they might need to save longer for that disney trip before they can afford to go.
I think we're just seeing the beginning of this. The introduction of dated tickets really was a 'soft open' - more of a testing of Disney's systems than of what tiered pricing can do. DVC rooms are about twice as expensive in peak season over low - I could easily see the prices for prime weeks like Easter and Christmas skyrocket while low season rates remain steady (or even slightly decline w/4 day packages) to capture 'value' focused visitors.
 

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I understand why Disney is increasing the tickets etc. We went this February and the crowds were insane or at least the crowds was much worse than we are use to. We normally go in May and Sept and there the crowds are much less. Increasing the prices lessens the demand at some point - creating a better experience for the ones that can afford to go. I will also price out some families or they might need to save longer for that disney trip before they can afford to go.

Is it fair - perhaps not. Its all about supply and demand. Disney is not forcing anyone to go. The thing with disney is that a lot of people have strong emotions about disney what is fair and unfair and how they believe things should be. When it comes down to it, Disney is a business and they need to make money for their shareholders - not make everyone feel good. If they can do both great.

I would love for Disney to lower their prices but I also know if they did, I wouldn't go. Why? because of the crowds would be much more insane. Getting 3 rides on the FP+ and then not being able to try anything else because of long waits of 1-2-3-4 hours. Thats not my idea of fun.

As the prices most likely will continue to increase at some point the middle class or upper middle class might not be able to go as often as they would like to. But I expect that when they do go their experience will be better in terms of crowds.

Its not in the cards that a DVC owner should go to the parks when staying onsite. For our next stay in 2020 we will most likely not hit the parks.

While that is true, you don't have to go the parks while staying on-site, I would say that is negating the reasons to have DVC for the stay. If I was not going to the parks, I would just rent out my DVC points (if I had any [LOL], just passed ROFR today on my first DVC contact at Aulani, so waiting for estoppel and closing now). To me, there are also very other nice places to stay for a much cheaper price than what the stay would cost in Maintenance Fees for the points required to be onsite at a DVC Resort, and not go the parks. I love the Marriott's Timeshare Resorts as well and often they go for less than $500 cash for a 2-bedrooms unit as getaways on II, and as DVC commands a rental premium that no other timeshare seems to fetch, especially in Orlando, it represent the best value to me: Stay at DVC when going to the parks, else stay offsite, and rent the DVC points.

Of course, to each his own, everyone decide what works best for them. But since reading your postings on TUGBBS back when you were looking to purchase HGVC about the same time I was looking to get into HGVC, you strike me as the kind of person that analyzed everything and look to squeeze out the most value where you can just like me. It just struck me as funny how your postings and your thinking is just how I usually think also!!! You are just a lot further along than me in the timeshare world purchasing DVC in addition to HGVC.


Great3
 
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chalee94

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While that is true, you don't have to go the parks while staying on-site, I would say that is negating the reasons to have DVC for the stay. If I was not going to the parks, I would just rent out my DVC points (if I had any [LOL], just passed ROFR today on my first DVC contact at Aulani, so waiting for estoppel and closing now). To me, there are also very other nice places to stay for a much cheaper price than what the stay would cost in Maintenance Fees for the points required to be onsite at a DVC Resort, and not go the parks. I love the Marriott's Timeshare Resorts as well and often they go for less than $500 cash for a 2-bedrooms unit as getaways on II, and as DVC commands a rental premium that no other timeshare seems to fetch, especially in Orlando, it represent the best value to me: Stay at DVC when going to the parks, else stay offsite, and rent the DVC points.

Good point. My next park-free stay is at a Marriott, while I'm banking DVC forward for a different trip later...
 

Dean

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While that is true, you don't have to go the parks while staying on-site, I would say that is negating the reasons to have DVC for the stay. If I was not going to the parks, I would just rent out my DVC points (if I had any [LOL], just passed ROFR today on my first DVC contact at Aulani, so waiting for estoppel and closing now). To me, there are also very other nice places to stay for a much cheaper price than what the stay would cost in Maintenance Fees for the points required to be onsite at a DVC Resort, and not go the parks. I love the Marriott's Timeshare Resorts as well and often they go for less than $500 cash for a 2-bedrooms unit as getaways on II, and as DVC commands a rental premium that no other timeshare seems to fetch, especially in Orlando, it represent the best value to me: Stay at DVC when going to the parks, else stay offsite, and rent the DVC points.

Of course, to each his own, everyone decide what works best for them. But since reading your postings on TUGBBS back when you were looking to purchase HGVC about the same time I was looking to get into HGVC, you strike me as the kind of person that analyzed everything and look to squeeze out the most value where you can just like me. It just struck me as funny how your postings and your thinking is just how I usually think also!!! You are just a lot further along than me in the timeshare world purchasing DVC in addition to HGVC.


Great3
It certainly does devalue using DVC points to stay on property but there is still value there. Staying on property but not going to the parks still offers certain options/advantages. If one has other good options, using DVC for say Universal or Sea World stays and the main plan is questionable but some do. For us we prefer on property all else equal but we also enjoy staying off property. But then most of my stays are actually on exchanges even though we own DVC.
 
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