Separated from Maui Hilton thread - debate about aloha vs tourism (?)

[HGVC Lover]

[This thread was split from the thread about the new Maui Hilton.]

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Listen to me, I sound like it may actually be built in my lifetime, lol.

Having lived in Hawaii many years I would not bet on it.....we have seen many many unpopular projects easily derailed by locals who do not
want something to be built and it is very easy to do for them... (just claim antiquities rights).....living here you would understand what development does to areas that are mainly used by mainlanders.....it seems like a great idea to them but it does really impact island life with many problems too....

 

[csodjd]

Having lived in Hawaii many years I would not bet on it.....we have seen many many unpopular projects easily derailed by locals who do not
want something to be built and it is very easy to do for them... (just claim antiquities rights).....living here you would understand what development does to areas that are mainly used by mainlanders.....it seems like a great idea to them but it does really impact island life with many problems too....

Probably true, but I wonder how the residents that have businesses in the nearby community feel about it? They stand to gain a lot from a well run resort/timeshare on what is currently (financially) unproductive land. Tourism IS the source of Hawaii's revenue after all.

 

[HGVC Lover]

Probably true, but I wonder how the residents that have businesses in the nearby community feel about it? They stand to gain a lot from a well run resort/timeshare on what is currently (financially) unproductive land. Tourism IS the source of Hawaii's revenue after all.

It is true tourism (high end) is a major source of income for the islands but it is NOT the only source.....it takes a lot of wealth to live here and many people who do have substantial incomes not from tourism but many other means.....Hawaii is the most expensive place to live in the US and it is not a 3rd world country that needs to beg for more tourists.....what you do not realize is that there is already enough tourist who visit and we do not want the other islands to become like OAHU.....buy a house here unless all you can afford is a timeshare and not able to stay in our high end hotels.....I for one would like to see less tourists and many of my friends and locals too feel the same way too....it is about quality of island life not timeshares for people from the mainland which I am sure do not pump that much money into the economy....timesharing is a cheap form of tourism in a way....

 

[alwysonvac]

Came across an Aerial video

Published on Feb 21, 2015
Flying over the demolition of the Maui Lu resort​

 

[csodjd]

I for one would like to see less tourists and many of my friends and locals too feel the same way too....it is about quality of island life not timeshares for people from the mainland which I am sure do not pump that much money into the economy....timesharing is a cheap form of tourism in a way....

Just about every experienced timeshare owner I know arrives in Hawaii and goes straight to Costco or a local supermarket and stocks up on food, wine, supplies, etc., for their week in Hawaii.

There is no doubt Hawaii is a very expensive place to live. My experience is that the wealthy people that live there didn't make their money in Hawaii, they moved to Hawaii with their money. Certainly everyone I personally know that owns a home there made their wealth on the mainland. Moreover, the tax revenue from the tourist tax is massive. And just how many Hawaiian residents are employed by the timeshares? The implication that you and others living in Hawaii would not see a profound change in the quality of life if tourism were to decline even 20%, I think, is naive. The quality of island life you enjoy is BECAUSE of tourism, not IN SPITE of it.

In addition, the idea that timesharing is a "cheap" form of tourism in Hawaii is also naive. First, it is constant and known. Unlike a hotel, timeshare revenue is "booked" for as long as the timeshare is owned, whether the owner goes or not. Second, whereas the hotel visitor eats in restaurants, the timeshare owner buys from local merchants/markets, funding a very different set of businesses and lives. Finally, timeshare owners in Hawaii are themselves necessarily relatively wealthy or they would not be buying expensive Hawaii timeshares - possibly the MOST expensive timeshares there are. These are not people vacationing "on the cheap." My MF fees alone for Hawaii are about $5k/year. A lot more than it would cost to stay at the Embassy Suites.

To the Hawaii resident that wants less tourism, I say, be very careful what you wish for because it might come true.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@HGVC Lover The people "traveling on the cheap" buying the cheap trinkets and cheezy T-shirts that make Oahu undesireable are the one-off deal-seeking coupon-clipping tourists staying in the hotels and cheap AirBnBs. Sure we don't support those businesses as much because you can only buy so many trinkets over the years, but that should be good because you don't want cheezy Oahu on Maui. However, we do buy high value items, because we value our long-standing relationship with Hawaii.

As @csodjd described, timeshare owners visit every year no matter whether the economy is good or bad because we have no choice - we pay irregardless. Any good business person knows that a constant source of income/subscription is good. The minute the economy softens, hotel tourists will be gone like the puff of smoke in the Roadrunner cartoon. And layoffs will follow.

We donate to local non-profits such as the One Ohana foundation. Plus we pay a higher tax rate than hotels and AirBnBs (in which we are penalized because we get taxation without representation.)

We have a wealthy friend on the mainland who recently sold their multi-million dollar ocean front home in Wailea partially because he has multiple second homes and doesn't visit often. The home remains vacant most of the year so the need for household employees is minimal. Homes pay the lowest tax rate vs. hotels and timeshares. Wealthy comes and wealthy goes. If that is considered desirable then how will that feed families and fund government services on the island?

 

[alwysonvac]

.....buy a house here unless all you can afford is a timeshare and not able to stay in our high end hotels.....I for one would like to see less tourists and many of my friends and locals too feel the same way too....it is about quality of island life not timeshares for people from the mainland which I am sure do not pump that much money into the economy....timesharing is a cheap form of tourism in a way....

This is not true for everyone...
I’ve stayed at the high end hotels in Wailea (Four Season and the Fairmont). I simply prefer to stay at the high end timeshare resort (Westin in Maui) because I get more for my dollar.

So instead of getting a small hotel room under a bed and breakfast rate, we’re getting larger accommodations along with the convenience of a full kitchen and washer/dryer.

We actually don’t do much cooking on vacation beyond breakfast. Although we still go out for breakfast as well from time to time. We shop and eat at the local and high end restaurants. We actually spend more because we’re returning more frequently.

I’ve also made several money donations over the years to various Hawaiian charities.

My extended family members and I have spent thousands of dollars and continue to buy/collect items (jewelry, art work, etc) made in Hawaii.

 

[HGVC Lover]

The implication that you and others living in Hawaii would not see a profound change in the quality of life if tourism were to decline even 20%, I think, is naive. The quality of island life you enjoy is BECAUSE of tourism, not IN SPITE of it.

In addition, the idea that timesharing is a "cheap" form of tourism in Hawaii is also naive.

To the Hawaii resident that wants less tourism, I say, be very careful what you wish for because it might come true.

Living "Aloha" has nothing to do with money or tourism which is the predominate life style in the islands for locals and the foundation of their life style. Most tourists have no understanding of this philosophy of aloha life. It always amazes me how infrequent visitors know more about Hawaii then those living there.
(offensive term removed)

 

[csodjd]

Living "Aloha" has nothing to do with money or tourism which is the predominate life style in the islands for locals and the foundation of their life style. Most tourists have no understanding of this philosophy of aloha life. It always amazes me how infrequent visitors know more about Hawaii then those living there. There is a reason why the word haole exists...

I suspect you'd feel differently about "living Aloha" if your bridges were crumbling, roads impassable, flood control areas not being maintained, etc., because there was not enough tax revenue to pay for it because tourism was down.

 

[frank808]

Finally, timeshare owners in Hawaii are themselves necessarily relatively wealthy or they would not be buying expensive Hawaii timeshares - possibly the MOST expensive timeshares there are. These are not people vacationing "on the cheap." My MF fees alone for Hawaii are about $5k/year. A lot more than it would cost to stay at the Embassy Suites.

To the Hawaii resident that wants less tourism, I say, be very careful what you wish for because it might come true.

Not arguing your other points about value TS owners bring to Hawaii. I have seen firsthand how the recession did not impact the employees working at Marriott Koolina as much as the hotels were. With a timeshare the occupancy level at MKO stayed in the upper 70's to lower 80's. TS owners tend to stay in their owned units regardless as they have already paid their mf.

Now for your statement about an Embassy suites for a week being less than your mf. Have you priced the rates for a week in the Embassy Suites Waikiki during the summer months? It will run about $5k for the week with taxes.


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[HGVC Lover]

Not arguing your other points about value TS owners bring to Hawaii. I have seen firsthand how the recession did not impact the employees working at Marriott Koolina as much as the hotels were. With a timeshare the occupancy level at MKO stayed in the upper 70's to lower 80's. TS owners tend to stay in their owned units regardless as they have already paid their mf.

Now for your statement about an Embassy suites for a week being less than your mf. Have you priced the rates for a week in the Embassy Suites Waikiki during the summer months? It will run about $5k for the week with taxes.


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Again.....you really need to spend more time in Hawaii.....as a resident Hawaii doesn't have a sales tax, but it does impose the general excise tax(GET) “at every level of transaction on goods and services… .” The GETis 4% throughout most of Hawaii, and 4.5% on Oahu, but the state allows a business to charge their customers a maximum of 4.712% to help recoup some of their total GET. GET is paid on everything, food, doctor visits real estate sales, you name it....etc.

Hawaii is not a 3rd world country like you seem to think it is and residents pay and are capable of paying plenty of taxes for maintenance of infra structure on the islands and other services.....I for one - like many could care less if tourist came or not....aloha!!

 

[frank808]

I suspect you'd feel differently about "living Aloha" if your bridges were crumbling, roads impassable, flood control areas not being maintained, etc., because there was not enough tax revenue to pay for it because tourism was down.

Even with the taxes, our roads are rated as some of the worst in the nation. On the Big Island there are impassable roads because of the lava flow. And this is with record number of tourists this past year.

I live on Oahu and welcome visitors. On my travels abroad I welcome peoples questions and urge them to come visit Hawaii. Tourism is our number 1 source of revenue here in Hawaii.

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[JIMinNC]

Again.....you really need to spend more time in Hawaii.....as a resident Hawaii doesn't have a sales tax, but it does impose the general excise tax(GET) “at every level of transaction on goods and services… .” The GETis 4% throughout most of Hawaii, and 4.5% on Oahu, but the state allows a business to charge their customers a maximum of 4.712% to help recoup some of their total GET. GET is paid on everything, food, doctor visits real estate sales, you name it....etc.

Hawaii is not a 3rd world country like you seem to think it is and residents pay and are capable of paying plenty of taxes for maintenance of infra structure on the islands and other services.....I for one - like many could care less if tourist came or not....aloha!!

Sure, Hawaii residents pay a lot of taxes...but I bet if the state didn't have the significant tax revenue it gets from tourism, you would pay a lot more. Furthermore, if tourism stopped or declined significantly, where would all of the people who work in the hotels, timeshares, restaurants, and other businesses that generate their revenue from tourism find work? There would be fewer jobs, and they would likely have to leave the state to find work, further reducing the tax base. Without tourism, what is there to provide jobs and support the Hawaiian economy? There is so little manufacturing and industry there.

Hawaii is certainly not a third world country, but without tourism, it might look a lot more like one.

 

[MikeinSoCal]

I have friends that live on the Big Island that were reaching out on TripAdvisor during the volcano eruptions trying to encourage visitors to not cancel their trips. Tourism was down and hurting the local businesses.

 

[frank808]

Again.....you really need to spend more time in Hawaii.....as a resident Hawaii doesn't have a sales tax, but it does impose the general excise tax(GET) “at every level of transaction on goods and services… .” The GETis 4% throughout most of Hawaii, and 4.5% on Oahu, but the state allows a business to charge their customers a maximum of 4.712% to help recoup some of their total GET. GET is paid on everything, food, doctor visits real estate sales, you name it....etc.

Hawaii is not a 3rd world country like you seem to think it is and residents pay and are capable of paying plenty of taxes for maintenance of infra structure on the islands and other services.....I for one - like many could care less if tourist came or not....aloha!!

Thanks for your lesson but I am born and raised here on Oahu.

Where did I even mention sales tax? Thanks for your lesson on what the general excise tax means. I learned about GET 45 years ago when buying my first meal with my father.

When did I say that HI was a third world country? But I know for a fact we tax the crap out of tourists that stay in the hotels. That money goes to pay for many programs. If it wasn't for those dollars the state of hawaii would have an even harder time trying to pay for these public services.

Get your head out of the sand if you dont think tourism helps out the economy and pays for a lot of these programs.

Your concept of "aloha" is certainly different than mine.

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[brp]

Sure, Hawaii residents pay a lot of taxes...but I bet if the state didn't have the significant tax revenue it gets from tourism, you would pay a lot more. Furthermore, if tourism stopped or declined significantly, where would all of the people who work in the hotels, timeshares, restaurants, and other businesses that generate their revenue from tourism find work? There would be fewer jobs, and they would likely have to leave the state to find work, further reducing the tax base. Without tourism, what is there to provide jobs and support the Hawaiian economy? There is so little manufacturing and industry there.

Hawaii is certainly not a third world country, but without tourism, it might look a lot more like one.

To add to this:

Tourism makes up 21% of the state's economy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Hawaii

A drop of 21% would be significant.

A few years ago, 118,000 people in Hawai'i are employed in tourism

https://www.thegardenisland.com/2017/12/31/hawaii-news/island-economy-depends-heavily-on-tourism/

With a population of 1.428M, this amounts to about 8% of the population, which is significant as well.

Interestingly, according to one data source, about 16% of the tourism employees are native Hawaii'an (and this puts the total figure in the industry at 234K, or 16% of the population).

http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/economic/reports/Native_Hawaiians_in_Tourism_Final_4-13-17.pdf

Yeah, tourism is pretty critical to the economic well being of Hawai'i.

Cheers.

 

[brp]

Your concept of "aloha" is certainly different than mine.

Yeah, but you were born and raised in Hawai'i. What do you know?

Cheers.

 

[frank808]

Living "Aloha" has nothing to do with money or tourism which is the predominate life style in the islands for locals and the foundation of their life style. Most tourists have no understanding of this philosophy of aloha life. It always amazes me how infrequent visitors know more about Hawaii then those living there.
(offensive term removed)

You should live what you preach. Calling people names is not "aloha". Name calling is what ignorant people do.

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[brp]

I'm going to suggest that it may be easy for someone who has moved to Hawai'i after making their money elsewhere, and has no direct involvement in the tourism industry to lament its prevalence. After all, tourism does bring in tourists, and a good percentage of those are simply ignorant (of many things, and without specification to just what that means in this context, but all y'all get it). They can certainly make things look bad in some ways. And the person who is not involved in the industry can easily wish that "all those yokels" would just go away. I get that.

But to downplay how important they are to all those other people who did not make money elsewhere and call Hawai'i home is, IMO, very shortsighted and unrealistic.

Cheers.

 

[klpca]

My uncle, half Hawaiian, native born and lifelong resident, is not a fan of tourism despite the obvious economic benefits. It's more of a way of life thing. So you will definitely find other opinions on the islands.

 

[JIMinNC]

My uncle, half Hawaiian, native born and lifelong resident, is not a fan of tourism despite the obvious economic benefits. It's more of a way of life thing. So you will definitely find other opinions on the islands.

There's no question that attitude is very prevalent from many local residents in the islands - and in quite a few other popular tourist destinations. But I can't help but think that if suddenly all those tourists went away and took their money with them, the impacts on the way of life might be even more objectionable.

 

[HGVC Lover]

I never called anyone names and I was the one who was referred to as "naive" and "ignorant"....haole has many different meaning if that is what is being implied.
But again, we have owned HGVC's for many years on the mainland and I do not need lectures on island economics.....several of the posters here were correct in that many people living in Hawaii are not pro tourist and all the issues they bring to a way of life....this whole issue started off by people implying that some locals are not happy about another timeshare being built on Maui and I understand that totally....mahalo!!

 

[rickandcindy23]

Timeshares, hotels, motels, VRBO, all of these visitors add something to tourism.

We have friends who own a condo and rent it out with a local RE broker, and she is a native of Hawaii, who is glad to have their business because she makes a big percentage of the rental income, plus she hires housekeepers to take care of the units, and there are groundskeepers for the entire condo complex who make a living taking care of things. It's not just about the front desk and the housekeepers. It's about an economy that is built in large part to visitors like us who love the islands and appreciate the beauty.

We pay dearly, and we pay property taxes that are exorbitant to Maui county on our three weeks at Hono Koa, but we love the island feel of our units and don't really care if some people are unhappy with us being there once or two times a year. We tip housekeepers generously, we eat at restaurants almost every meal, and we enjoy our lanai and the ocean. It's a chance to relax and enjoy my mom-in-law, who is almost 91. She goes with us for the whale season trips. She is completely oblivious to the culture. She just sits on the lanai and reads her books and stares at the water.

Hawaii was always a tourist destination. Mark Twain visited a very long time ago and wrote stories about his escapades. Elvis Presley made us all want to go to Hawaii with his movies and music. It's a dream destination, and we are very fortunate to be able to afford our trips. I never thought we would ever afford Hawaii. I love timeshare.

 

[Sandy VDH]

I have friends that live on the Big Island that were reaching out on TripAdvisor during the volcano eruptions trying to encourage visitors to not cancel their trips. Tourism was down and hurting the local businesses.

That was the very reason why I went to the Big Island in July.

1) I WANTED to see the volcano in full eruption, and not just leaking some lava. I have been to BI 10 times and have never been there will large eruption ongoing.
2) Timeshares were easily available during peak summer, so why not.
3) Airfare was ridiculously cheap, I paid $300 round trip flight. Crazy cheap.
4) While there we did lots of tourists things and ate 70% of our meals out. In support of the those who rely on tourist dollars. Car Rental, Lava Boat Tour, Luau, Manta Ray snorkel, shopping, restaurants and bars.

Happy to support the economy.

 

[Shmiddy]

Any chance that this thread can return to the orginal conversation about the Maui property? Maybe you all should take this outside.