Westin Flex - No more buybacks?

[Wonk]

In a sales update last week I was told that they were going to discontinue buying back units in a couple of months. Perhaps this was to encourage me to buy into Westin Flex now rather than later. Anyone else receive this pitch?

 

[DeniseM]

The bottom line is that you can't believe anything that a salesman says - they will say whatever it takes to get you to buy. I don't believe this for a second - Vistana will continue cherry picking the resales they want (exercising ROFR) so they can put them in the Flex Inventory.

 

[DannyTS]

In a sales update last week I was told that they were going to discontinue buying back units in a couple of months. Perhaps this was to encourage me to buy into Westin Flex now rather than later. Anyone else receive this pitch?

BUY NOW THIS IS THE LAST CHANCE!

I am just kidding. I was told something similar last July, that by the end of August these programs would no longer be available.

 

[Snowonbeach]

We went to an update today at Westin Resort and Spa in Cancun. We were told that things could change on February 13. They were recommending we buy Westin Adventuras before the price went up.

 

[PamMo]

In a sales update last week I was told that they were going to discontinue buying back units in a couple of months...

Were they saying they won't take deeded weeks back (plus cash) to enroll in Flex? Don't believe it for a second. If they want to keep selling Flex (high profit margins), they need new inventory, because they can't sell more than they own. Since ALL the prices are inflated in a sales presentation, they try to convince the naive that they're getting a great deal if they buy NOW!

Or, were they saying they won't ever exercise ROFR in a few months? Again, that's the salesperson trying to close a sale. Picking up a relatively cheap VOI is a good way for Vistana to get inventory for Flex.

 

[Wonk]

They were saying they won't take deeded weeks back (plus cash) to enroll in Flex.

 

[Ken555]

In a sales update last week I was told that they were going to discontinue buying back units in a couple of months. Perhaps this was to encourage me to buy into Westin Flex now rather than later. Anyone else receive this pitch?

Hahahahahahahaha

Suuuuuuure.


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[dioxide45]

Vistana will continue to offer this in order to continue to drive sales. All of these offers still require you to bring new money to the table. It is a way to get people to buy in to the facade of Flex. They also want to target mandatory weeks for buyback so they can convert them in to voluntary Flex. I wonder if this will make resale mandatory harder to find and drive prices up some?

 

[DannyTS]

Vistana will continue to offer this in order to continue to drive sales. All of these offers still require you to bring new money to the table. It is a way to get people to buy in to the facade of Flex. They also want to target mandatory weeks for buyback so they can convert them in to voluntary Flex. I wonder if this will make resale mandatory harder to find and drive prices up some?

i was wondering the same. I was also wondering if the new proposed legislation (if it passes) that targets the exit companies will not dry up the ebay well, a source of cheap TS for many.

 

[JudyS]

i was wondering the same. I was also wondering if the new proposed legislation (if it passes) that targets the exit companies will not dry up the ebay well, a source of cheap TS for many.

Are there threads here about this new legislation?

Also, does anyone know if Vistana ever takes desirable Sheraton inventory back as a requalify for Westin flex? Or, can Sheraton weeks only be used to requalify into Sheraton flex? (Not that I'm certain either system, Westin Flex or Sheraton Flex, is worth owning. I'm just curious.)

 

[DannyTS]

Are there threads here about this new legislation?

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...f-cancellation-companies.285027/#post-2240045

 

[DannyTS]

from the 3rd quarter MVC conference call:
"We also see the potential to enhance Vistana's VPG by utilizing MVW's pricing strategy that are designed to improve overall closing efficiency while enhancing the average contract value."
so it seems that they are going to align the sales strategies

 

[DannyTS]

I am wondering if the ever increasing desire for MVC to bring more people to the Vistana (and Marriott) resorts in order to feed the sales machine does not have a long term effect of degrading the resort facilities on the expense of the regular owner. In the end we are the ones that pay the maintenance fees while the developer enjoys the higher rental and sales revenue.
More renters means higher occupancy rates, longer check in lines, worse restaurant services, faster degradation of the furniture etc (so higher MF)

It is also interesting to note that the ones that rent directly from MVC-Vistana get daily cleaning vs weekly. I am wondering if MVC-Vistana is at least paying for that extra cost or if the regular owners are paying in reality for those additional cleanings and the cost goes to the general resort budget.

I noticed in the Tripadvisor reviews for some Vistana resorts, it seems that the frequency of complains about longer check in lines and high pressure sales tactics have increased.

From the same conference call
"In our rental business, rental revenues increased $20 million or 30% to $86 million. Rental revenues net of expenses were $12 million, a 34% increase from the prior year. Legacy MVW rental revenues, net of expenses were $12 million, a 31% increase from the prior year"

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Our datapoint for MVC Ko Olina: the lines were horrible (almost a half hour wait or more) and not just on a specific check-in day. As a guest, I felt like cattle. Our room was not ready by check-in time and we didn't get into the room until 3 hours later after we waited in long line (2x!) to check on the status (they were supposed to text when ready). We also had a problem with cockroaches in our room and had to move out of the room for the better part of a day so they could fumigate the floor. So far not very impressed with MVC.

We have an upcoming stay at the Las Vegas location, so hopefully this datapoint will be better.

I cannot recall a long line more than 1 or 3 people at the many HGVCs where we have stayed. If regular line forms the elite line will take guests. At Hilton Hawaiian Village TS they frequently greet us with leis when we enter the line.

 

[dioxide45]

I am wondering if the ever increasing desire for MVC to bring more people to the Vistana (and Marriott) resorts in order to feed the sales machine does not have a long term effect of degrading the resort facilities on the expense of the regular owner. In the end we are the ones that pay the maintenance fees while the developer enjoys the higher rental and sales revenue.
More renters means higher occupancy rates, longer check in lines, worse restaurant services, faster degradation of the furniture etc (so higher MF)

It is also interesting to note that the ones that rent directly from MVC-Vistana get daily cleaning vs weekly. I am wondering if MVC-Vistana is at least paying for that extra cost or if the regular owners are paying in reality for those additional cleanings and the cost goes to the general resort budget.

I noticed in the Tripadvisor reviews for some Vistana resorts, it seems that the frequency of complains about longer check in lines and high pressure sales tactics have increased.

From the same conference call
"In our rental business, rental revenues increased $20 million or 30% to $86 million. Rental revenues net of expenses were $12 million, a 34% increase from the prior year. Legacy MVW rental revenues, net of expenses were $12 million, a 31% increase from the prior year"

Marriott doesn't seem to . be skimping on keeping the resorts and villas up to par, our MFs show it. The HOAs do receive a payback for the daily housekeeping on cash/Bonvoy stays as well as DC trust point stays. I haven't noticed any issues with longer lines and there never really seems to be issues with restaurants being busy at any timeshare I have been to. Since the developers own, manage and receive all of the revenue from food and beverage, it wouldn't be to their benefit to short staff these as people do have off site options.

 

[DannyTS]

Our datapoint for MVC Ko Olina: the lines were horrible (almost a half hour wait or more) and not just on a specific check-in day. As a guest, I felt like cattle. Our room was not ready by check-in time and we didn't get into the room until 3 hours later after we waited in line (again!) to check on the status (they were supposed to text when ready). We also had a problem with cockroaches in our room and had to move out of the room for the better part of a day so they could fumigate the floor. So far not very impressed with MVC.

We have an upcoming stay at the Las Vegas location, so hopefully this datapoint will be better.

I cannot recall a long line more than 1 or 3 people at the many HGVCs where we have stayed. If regular line forms the elite line will take guests. At Hilton Hawaiian Village TS they frequently greet us with leis when we enter the line.

It is not just the higher number of people that may check in. The ones that buy promotional packages through the loyalty programs have higher demands since the developers target gold and platinum members. Once they arrive at the resort, they expect certain upgrades (floor, view, size, early check in, late check out) due to their status that may be hard to meet when resorts run at 92% capacity in average and very close to 100% during busy seasons. Of course the owners know what they can get and cannot get but that is not the case for the ones that rented through Marriott.
To make things worse, because Marriott-Vistana hope to sell them timeshares, they want to please these guests whether they have the means to do it or not. This may lead to additional frustration both for the renters and the staff hence the more negative reviews.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

To make things worse, because Marriott-Vistana hope to sell them timeshare, they want to please these people whether they have the means to do it or not. This may lead to additional frustration both for the renters and the staff hence the more negative reviews.

We were there on a discounted promotional stay and attended the required presentation. They did very little to impress us to buy.

 

[DannyTS]

The HOAs do receive a payback for the daily housekeeping on cash/Bonvoy stays as well as DC trust point stays. .

it is not clear to me if this is the case.
i am looking at the Lagunamar 2018, 2017, 2016 budget.

There is only one line that would include that kind of revenue and it actually went down from 2016 to 2018 by quite a bit.
2016 budget: Club Rental Revenue (4) (323,364). It is negative because it subtracts from the resort expenses.
2017 budget: Club Rental Revenue (4) ($296,082)
2018 budget: Club Rental Revenue (4) ($220,202)

So the number of renters goes up but the rental revenue goes down. This is interesting

 

[DannyTS]

We were there on a discounted promotional stay and attended the required presentation. They did very little to impress us to buy.

right, but you kind of knew what to expect. My point was that the people who buy these packages and do not own timeshare may have different expectations.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

right, but you kind of knew what to expect. My point was that the people who buy these packages and do not own timeshare may have different expectations.

Actually we were surprised. When we have had promo stays with HGVC and Hyatt, they put us in a nice room and even had staff come out and greet to help us check in as a "VIP". Trying to convince us to spend $50 - $100k so we can stay there again when we are placed in a crap room, and stand in long lines multiple times is not very compelling. The resort is beautiful, but I believe we could stay there by renting or II getaways or stay at other options.

 

[DannyTS]

what is also interesting in the same budget, the bad debt is shared by the owners
Bad Debt (8) 160,252

But Vistana rents those condos that are in arrears and keeps the revenue. This is not insignificant, probably around 300,000-400,000 every year at Lagunamar. When you multiply this by the number of resorts, it may add up to tens of millions every year for a company like MVC.

 

[Ken555]

Danny,

All your new points on this thread have been discussed many, many times on TUG over the years. It really hasn’t changed. Obviously, and I know you are aware, Marriott will definitely find ways to improve profit as a result of the merger. There are numerous costs that owners pay in some form that may seem objectionable. This has always been the case, and it’s not going to change.

I have always had lines in Maui at the Westin resorts, sometimes long, and sometimes (not infrequently) with a surly front desk clerk. The “concierge” desks at all the resorts make my skin crawl since they’re looking for a mark, and they know who we are...I always feel like I’m about to buy a used car when all I want to know is if there are any new restaurants in the area.

I enjoy the resorts a lot, and I’m sure we all have our favorites. Sometimes they need more careful cleaning, other times it’s clear they have poorly trained staff (as I experienced at Nanea in Dec), but in general the product is quite nice. I’m willing to overlook a lot to have an enjoyable affordable stay, and Westin has done that for me.

Perspective.


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[DannyTS]

Danny,

All your new points on this thread have been discussed many, many times on TUG over the years. It really hasn’t changed. Obviously, and I know you are aware, Marriott will definitely find ways to improve profit as a result of the merger. There are numerous costs that owners pay in some form that may seem objectionable. This has always been the case, and it’s not going to change.

I have always had lines in Maui at the Westin resorts, sometimes long, and sometimes (not infrequently) with a surly front desk clerk. The “concierge” desks at all the resorts make my skin crawl since they’re looking for a mark, and they know who we are...I always feel like I’m about to buy a used car when all I want to know is if there are any new restaurants in the area.

I enjoy the resorts a lot, and I’m sure we all have our favorites. Sometimes they need more careful cleaning, other times it’s clear they have poorly trained staff (as I experienced at Nanea in Dec), but in general the product is quite nice. I’m willing to overlook a lot to have an enjoyable affordable stay, and Westin has done that for me.

Perspective.


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Hi Ken555, I actually enjoy my timeshares a lot and i do think that Vistana has done a great job overall. Somehow in less than a year we ended up buying 4 Vistana weeks, this is how much we like it. I have also encouraged many of my friends to buy resale, I think it is a type of vacation that is hard to bit for a certain budget and if you want a certain quality of accommodation.

I realize that few if any of my comments are anything new on this site. In the end, people with 10-15 and 25 years of timeshare experience have seen it all. I am also not that naive to believe that I (or anyone here) can change anything, what we can do is to enjoy what we have and follow the rules in place.
Yet, this forum is a living organism and many topics will come back every once in a while.

My criticism comes from a good place and i do not think that a healthy amount of criticism is bad, we should keep them honest in the end. Am i frustrated sometimes thinking "Marriott is doing this, Vistana is doing that..." Yes i am and this is why i added VAC to my portfolio late last year, to hedge against the seemingly never ending cycle of fee increases. Not that we cannot afford the increases, just not to bother me at all since i will know i will make the money at the other side... many times over actually.

 

[JudyS]

what is also interesting in the same budget, the bad debt is shared by the owners
Bad Debt (8) 160,252

But Vistana rents those condos that are in arrears and keeps the revenue. This is not insignificant, probably around 300,000-400,000 every year at Lagunamar. When you multiply this by the number of resorts, it may add up to tens of millions every year for a company like MVC.

I had assumed the bad debt only showed up as a MF expense if the resort had *not* been able to bring in sufficient funds to cover them via renting. Am I wrong about this?

 

[DannyTS]

I had assumed the bad debt only showed up as a MF expense if the resort had *not* been able to bring in sufficient funds to cover them via renting. Am I wrong about this?

The $ amount of bad debt in the budget and the % of contracts in default that the resort discloses match so the answer appears to be that the rental revenue does not come back to the HOA even if the owners do pay for the MF of those units.