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Governance in Large Timeshare Systems

ecwinch

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I am trying to find a good example of a large timeshare share system (i.e. Wyndham, Marriott, DVC, Hilton, DRI, etc) that is a good benchmark for owner representation in the governance of the system - i.e. voting procedures, BoD director election, by-law amendments, etc.

Obviously there are independent/legacy resorts where owners have say in how the resort operates, with owner representation on the BoD. But is there a timeshare system out there that is a good benchmark along those same lines?

Or is it just part of the bargain we make in joining a large timeshare system (typically pts based) - that the developer will drive that process and make the decisions about the product they are selling.

Meaning we are more customers than owners.
 

Jason245

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Well, I would start by saying that dvc is an example of zero ownership representation (they control everything ).

All the other big onea make sure to have a controlling interest of the board in order to ensure that management contract is maintained with them. Ultimately imho , if you are part of the large systems you are never going to have any real control.

That being said, the true owners are the shareholders of those companies.. so if you want a say, buy there shares. .buy enough shares and they might actual listen to you too..

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Passepartout

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As long as he developer keeps voting control of the unsold units, they will control the BoD. There is simply no way that any other entity- including an 'association' of owners- can generate more votes on ANY issue than a proxy drive by the developer.

I think calling 'owners', customers is accurate.

Jim
 

Railman83

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I am trying to find a good example of a large timeshare share system (i.e. Wyndham, Marriott, DVC, Hilton, DRI, etc) that is a good benchmark for owner representation in the governance of the system - i.e. voting procedures, BoD director election, by-law amendments, etc.

Obviously there are independent/legacy resorts where owners have say in how the resort operates, with owner representation on the BoD. But is there a timeshare system out there that is a good benchmark along those same lines?

Or is it just part of the bargain we make in joining a large timeshare system (typically pts based) - that the developer will drive that process and make the decisions about the product they are selling.

Meaning we are more customers than owners.
Vacation Internationale is supposed to be true owner run. There is at least one Tugger who can tell you all about that system and board....check Vacation Internationale posts...forgot name and too tired to look up
 

ecwinch

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Vacation Internationale is supposed to be true owner run. There is at least one Tugger who can tell you all about that system and board....check Vacation Internationale posts...forgot name and too tired to look up

Thanks.
 

bogey21

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The big guys will always keep control. It is in their DNA. Referring to Owners as Customers is right on. Lack of Owner control/imput is one of the reasons I replaced my 4 Marriott Weeks many years ago with 6 Weeks at Independent HOA controlled resorts...

George
 

bizaro86

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I think VI is the only one that could be considered big. I think it was formerly a Sunterra club.

Another one would be Royal Aloha Vacation Club. They have about 10 resorts IIRC, and are member managed/independent. Less flexible than a points system (you get one week per year and it always starts on Monday) but from a governance point of view they're probably a good case study.
 

bizaro86

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I think VI is the only one that could be considered big. I think it was formerly a Sunterra club.

Another one would be Royal Aloha Vacation Club. They have about 10 resorts IIRC, and are member managed/independent. Less flexible than a points system (you get one week per year and it always starts on Monday) but from a governance point of view they're probably a good case study.

Not to reply to my own post, but I had something to add...

I think RAVC is probably a great governance model. They have a member elected BoD, which has hired management employees who actually run the club. They take feedbacks freely, and have shrunk the club slightly by doing so, selling off units in Acapulco that were underutilized to keep the club in balance from a members/units point of view. Acapulco has declined a lot, but they still received enough from the sales to renovate pretty much everything else.

They have also been opportunistic in adding new condominiums at high demand destinations, expanding into the Oregon Coast. I believe (but am not totally sure) that funds for that expansion came from the Acapulco sale/contraction as well as selling underutilized units in Branson, effectively upgrading the portfolio.

Seems like a pretty well run group to me, and proof positive that you don't need a developer to make opportunistic additions to a portfolio responsive to member needs.

I would have bought a long time ago, but the locations aren't a good fit for me, and I don't like the Monday checkin.

If WM ever went a similar way I would probably convert all of my savings into WM credits...
 

ecwinch

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Seems like a pretty well run group to me, and proof positive that you don't need a developer to make opportunistic additions to a portfolio responsive to member needs.

I would agree that a developer is not required to add to the portfolio. They are more important to replacing departing owners to avoid the bad debt expense that is starting to be the demise of more and more timeshare resorts.

Do you happen to know how RAVC addresses that challenge? I personally would not be comfortable if the answer is shrinking the system.
 

bizaro86

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I would agree that a developer is not required to add to the portfolio. They are more important to replacing departing owners to avoid the bad debt expense that is starting to be the demise of more and more timeshare resorts.

Do you happen to know how RAVC addresses that challenge? I personally would not be comfortable if the answer is shrinking the system.

They have a resale program, but I think creatively shrinking is mostly how it has gone.

RAVC has used folks turning in their memberships to upgrade the club. Basically, if you get 204 memberships back you need to reduce by 4 units to stay in balance. They would sell 6 units in Branson and buy 2 in their oceanfront Oregon Coast location. That gives a net reduction of four units, and a huge upgrade in desirability for 2 units, plus funds for reserves.

I think WM owners would be pretty happy to see something similar happen. Ie, the club takes back 1MM credits for free, sells 2MM credits worth of underutilized resort inventory and takes the proceeds to buy 1MM credits worth of units in Hawaii. I know that would make me happy as a WM owner.

I think RAVC is a great comparable for WM, because both have underutilized resorts in overbuilt or less desirable locations, plus full resorts in very desirable locations. If WM shrunk a bit so my credits represented a higher proportion of desirable properties, that would be ok with me.
 

ecwinch

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If WM shrunk a bit so my credits represented a higher proportion of desirable properties, that would be ok with me.

So if one of the properties divested was one you really liked - that would be fine with you? For instance, Canmore? It is a popular resort during the summer, but some rough math suggests that utilization is less than 60%.

Having researched it more - it is a model more harkening back to the early WM days. Not really building or owning resorts. Instead buying a few units in a condo or existing timeshare. Not sure how you shrink WM and 220k+ members into that model, as it seems the WM resorts with the greatest complaints are the shared resorts (i.e. Schooners Landing). But the concept of selling off underperforming resorts is something that Bob Hartsock has spoken about.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out for them.
 

bizaro86

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So if one of the properties divested was one you really liked - that would be fine with you? For instance, Canmore? It is a popular resort during the summer, but some rough math suggests that utilization is less than 60%.

Having researched it more - it is a model more harkening back to the early WM days. Not really building or owning resorts. Instead buying a few units in a condo or existing timeshare. Not sure how you shrink WM and 220k+ members into that model, as it seems the WM resorts with the greatest complaints are the shared resorts (i.e. Schooners Landing). But the concept of selling off underperforming resorts is something that Bob Hartsock has spoken about.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out for them.

I would certainly be disappointed if Canmore was sold off (as you know I go there frequently). However, I would be fine with that it IF it improved the quality of the club, and made it easier to get other desirable locations.

To work some numbers: Canmore has 112 units. It is is attached to the Grand Canadian Resort, which has some individually owned units. Based on sales there, I think the average unit at WM Canmore should go for $240k CAD. That works out to just over $20 million USD at current exchange rates. That seems like it should be possible to buy 20-30 units on Maui for that amount of money.

If they retired the difference in credits and added 20 more units on Maui I think the club would be better off. I would also be an interested buyer of a condo unit at WM Canmore if they were selling units there... The WM has tourist zoning, which is somewhat uncommon and very desirable in the Canmore market.

I think there are lots of places where the WM is under-utilized but individual condos (or even a whole resort) would be very saleable. Canmore is certainly on that list. Probably Big Bear, Angels Camp, Galena, Grand Lake, La Paloma, and Pine Top as well. Maybe some of the inland WA resorts? Very unfamiliar with those...

If they replaced owners who want out and underutilized resorts with less units in Hawaii/California Coast (the two locations that are booked solid at 13 months year round) we'd all be better off.

Anyway, that is pretty off topic to your original thread on governance, but I do think it's an interesting discussion.

As an aside, if I had WM BoD authority for a day I'd use the power to re-align credits to make them more fair on a seasonal basis.

Taking WM Canmore as a perfect example of this. 2-3 months of summer and 2 weeks at Xmas sell out at 13 months. A few other holidays and weekends sell out (especially in 2 bedrooms) but it is often on bonus time in off season. However, even on bonus time it isn't necessarily competitive with off-season rental prices in the area. To improve utilization and make things more fair, they should increase credits for a shorter red season (just true summer, week 7, and week 13 which is local spring break, and easter). Also bump the 2 bedrooms up. Use that increase to decrease credits on the smaller units and low season units. While that would be a wash for me as I tend to book 2 bedrooms in low season, occupancy would be way better. The peak times would still sell out at a 15k/week for a 2 bedroom, but the low season would too if you lowered the cost. That is just one example, and lots of resorts have a similar situation, most notably Yellowstone, where summer sells out at 13 months and winter doesn't fill at all.

I should say since I've owned Wyn has moved around the seasons at Canmore to better match demand, moving red to the shoulder around summer, which is a better representation of actual demand, so they are trying to improve things. I went to Canmore once in January when that was still red season, and I think I was the only one there. Now that it's white occupancy is better.
 

bizaro86

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Two other notes: it's gratifying to know someone out there actually reads what I post (viz a viz Canmore). But you've adroitly identified the biggest issue with applying the RAVC "shrink" model to WM, which is that even the underutilized resorts will have some big fans, like myself at Canmore.

So those who are strongly affected can reasonably be expected to complain loudly. But even if you double the units on Maui they'll probably still go at 13 months. Hundreds of extra owners will get a reservation, but they may or may not attribute that to the change, just to them being organized and booking right at 13 months.

Back to your governance thoughts, I believe RAVC had a whole club vote on the sale of Acapulco, which was a big deal for that club. I think they later sold a few units in Branson and Chandler, AZ, but kept some in each case, so the big fans are still able to get reservations. They added a new (very popular!) Destination in the Oregon Coast, which also probably helped.

If WM used sale proceeds from a few underutilized resorts to take back some foreclosed credits and put up a 100 unit resort on Oahu I'm pretty confident I know how the membership would vote. As long as Wyn has ovation this is a moot point, but it is an interesting model.
 

Deb & Bill

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The affiliated resorts with Hilton have their own board of directors made up totally of members.
 

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[The Royal Resorts in Quintana Roo have member boards which seem 1) very active and, more importantly 2) very influential.
 
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Vacation International is owner controlled and has been for about a decade. It is its own developer. Diamond was the last "commercial" developer to have that role, and, as I recall, it was a messy divorce. VI has added a variety of units as developer, generally solidifying their holdings in existing properties. Other developments has chosen to dissolve, with VI loosing units.

I have been with VI for close to 25 years; with WorldMark for about 10. Both systems are point based, and even have a few overlapping properties. The founders of WM started that system after quitting VI. Each has its best focus, which allows us to pick and choose where we go. Both do a very good job of containing maintenance fees and managing their/our properties.


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geist1223

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If all the comments I have read about Valley Isle on Maui are true VI is really dropping the ball on maintenance issues. This is a shared Resort with WMTC but VI managed.
 

MrBill

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I joined RAVC in the late 90's on a fluke after debunking the mega dollar sales pitches from large corp owned developements. Over the years I've learned a lot about the TS industry from TUG, TS Today and other savvy owners and now happily own many weeks in the Club. The owners elect the board which in turn advise the handful of salaried offiers. I've always been impressed by the resumes of the owners running for seats on the board. I personally would never buy into a corp run TS where a for profit owner can dictate my fees. Witness Diamond Resorts assessments in Poipu several years ago. Using exchanges I have roasted in hot tubs with owners who paid 20x my buy in and double my maintenance fees.
The Club has sold off under utilized units in Acapulco and a couple in Branson but that was at the will of the owners. As with any club there are drop outs for various reasons. RAVC offers these take back weeks at steal prices.

A couple of years ago I added Nob Hill Inn in SF and Pine Acres Lodge in Pacific Grove to my portfolio. These also are owner managed and weeks only.
 
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