Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) purchase of Interval Leisure Group (ILG) discussion!

[DannyTS]

I am a bit amused by these so-called analyses that conclude that II trading gets values you could never get with DC points. In reality, it all depends on what you are trying to get. Most of the analyses involve trading for high season weeks at the top resorts. In our case, we like to use DC points to trade into places like Hilton Head in the off season (which for us is a more enjoyable trip than in the summer). In II, the best we could do would be to lock off our Maui week and get two HHI weeks, plus perhaps a bonus week, and now the HHI weeks would also require upgrade fees. With DC points a couple years ago, we used the points from our Maui week to book 30 consecutive ocean front days in January at Grande Ocean, and we still had approximately 1/3 of the Maui points left over to use elsewhere. When the system can yield values like this, it is hard for me to get upset over some "skim."

It is great it works for you. Unfortunately many people do not have the flexibility to travel off season because of kids, work etc.

 

[mjm1]

All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?

I would like to make my predictions as follows:

1) Marriott-to-Marriott preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
2) Starwood-to-Starwood preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
3) Starwood owners will continue to be able to trade to other Starwood properties using StarOptions
4) Starwood owners wishing to book Marriott properties (not via II trade) will need to buy Trust Points (which enrolls the Starwood week)
5) Marriott owners wishing to book Starwood properties (not via II trade) will need to use Trust Points
6) Some Starwood inventory will be deposited into the Trust for WSJ and the four Mexico properties
7) Hyatt properties will only be accessible to Starwood/Marriott owners via II trade
8) II trade fees will continue to increase
9) We will continue to see hotel conversions of Starwood/Marriott properties as the primarily source of new properties
10) Those hotel conversions will be deposited into the Marriott Trust
11) HGVC will become a hot target, as Diamond and Wyndham look to compete with Marriott's planted flag in the high-end space
12) Directly purchased Trust Points (and grandfathered Trust Points) will become valuable
13) There will be an amnesty for post-2010 weeks to be enrolled (for a fee), but time will prove that Elected Points are powerful in the Marriott system and less so for the broader system that is being created.

I do think if anyone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), you should buy them now before the merger is completed. I am speculating, but I believe that Trust Points will be the skeleton key that accesses everything. And that Marriott will discriminate between Directly purchased Trust Points and resale Trust Points -- but will grandfather existing resales, kind of like the pre-2010/post-2010 weeks. Wyndham discriminates between resale points and directly purchased points, and Marriott could too.

This opens up an entire universe of potential Trust Point purchasers to Marriott and they must be salivating like Pavlov's dog. We will see pictures of Westin St. John, Cancun and Cabo San Lucas in every Marriott sales office -- and Starwood sales offices will show Aruba, Newport Coast and the Big Island.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds. I do not think it will be harmful for us, and there will be benefits if there is a post-2010 amnesty (since now Marriott needs even more Marriott inventory available because of the potential demand). This is all pure speculation, but this is what I would do if I was designing the system.

Best,

Greg

Greg and all, a question regarding Hyatt with regards to the acquisition.

Greg mentioned in his speculation that Hyatt owners may have to use II to gain access to MVC or Vistana properties, but Vistana owners could get access to MVC by buying points. Today I saw a transcript of MVC’s earnings call yesterday (5/3) and they referred to MVC and VSE, but didn’t mention Hyatt. My question is, is there something in the Hyatt sale of HRC to ILG that would keep other major brands like MVC from buying and integrating HRC into their program? I found Greg’s comment and the verbiage of the earnings call very interesting. Would love to hear what others think about this.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[dioxide45]

Greg and all, a question regarding Hyatt with regards to the acquisition.

Greg mentioned in his speculation that Hyatt owners may have to use II to gain access to MVC or Vistana properties, but Vistana owners could get access to MVC by buying points. Today I saw a transcript of MVC’s earnings call yesterday (5/3) and they referred to MVC and VSE, but didn’t mention Hyatt. My question is, is there something in the Hyatt sale of HRC to ILG that would keep other major brands like MVC from buying and integrating HRC into their program? I found Greg’s comment and the verbiage of the earnings call very interesting. Would love to hear what others think about this.

Best regards.

Mike

I think just the fact that Hyatt is a competing brand to Marriott International may cause some heartburn if they try to integrate it with the other brands. I think that Hyatt has or had something in their licensing agreement with ILG that they could pull out if ILG or Hyatt Residence Club was sold to a competing brand. While it wasn't technically sold to a competing brand (VAC), the brands that VAC will own all fall under a license agreement with a competing hotel brand. I would expect them to integrate Westin and Sheraton in to the DC program and potentially leave HRC out on its own.

 

[dioxide45]

It is great it works for you. Unfortunately many people do not have the flexibility to travel off season because of kids, work etc.

I would agree, and it really only works for a certain prime weeks and resorts. For a Grande Vista lock off, we do much better trading through II by locking off and trading two for one, in most cases scoring an upgrade (with a fee of course).

 

[PerryKing]

It will without doubt enhance your ownership by giving you more access to incredible places. For Hyatt, think Beaver Creek, Cabo, and Texas Hill Country. We stayed at Sheraton Vistana Resort Villas in Orlando years ago and loved it. We stayed at Westin Ka'anapali years ago and loved it even more. One of of favorite timeshare stays ever.

Cabo ? Hyatt Residence Club ? I don't think so ! There is no Hyatt Residence club in Cabo, or outside the USA and Puerto Rico for that matter.

 

[PerryKing]

If you have any interest in Cancun, the Westin Lagunamar is outstanding. We also spent time at the JW Marriott in Cancun (including Club 91 access) and while we do enjoy the JW Marriott property, and it has some nice features, overall we think WLR is better. In my opinion WLR is one of the best planned and best laid out properties anywhere.

YES ! Laguna Del Mar is super nice. and directly across the street from the La Isla outdoor shopping center.

 

[dioxide45]

I know that Marriott has been trying to sell their land in Cancun for many years. I doubt now that they would ever develop it unless they plan to never merge the two programs in some way. The Marriott land in Cancun was in a pretty good spot. The only thing between it and Lagunamar is Live Aqua. The only issue is that it is a pretty small footprint. It would have had to be a highrise type structure vs the more low profile of Lagunamar.

 

[mjm1]

I think just the fact that Hyatt is a competing brand to Marriott International may cause some heartburn if they try to integrate it with the other brands. I think that Hyatt has or had something in their licensing agreement with ILG that they could pull out if ILG or Hyatt Residence Club was sold to a competing brand. While it wasn't technically sold to a competing brand (VAC), the brands that VAC will own all fall under a license agreement with a competing hotel brand. I would expect them to integrate Westin and Sheraton in to the DC program and potentially leave HRC out on its own.

Dioxide, thanks for your insights. That makes sense and the result for access to Hyatt properties would be no different than it is today.

Mike

 

[rog2867]

Dioxide, thanks for your insights. That makes sense and the result for access to Hyatt properties would be no different than it is today.

Mike

speculating is such a waste of time, this just happened and even they don't know how this will all shake out.

 

[dioxide45]

speculating is such a waste of time, this just happened and even they don't know how this will all shake out.

It may be a waste of time, but it doesn't make it any less fun...

 

[BocaBoy]

It is great it works for you. Unfortunately many people do not have the flexibility to travel off season because of kids, work etc.

That is very true and I never said anything inconsistent with this. My point was simply that many people are making blanket statements that either directly say or imply that it is almost universally true that you get better values from II trades than DC points. This is not an accurate statement and is very dependent on what one's particular needs and desires are. We have almost stopped using II because we get much more value from DC points (off season; last 60 days; guaranteed view; etc.).

 

[mjm1]

It may be a waste of time, but it doesn't make it any less fun...

I think it’s also helpful to consider these different potential outcomes, so once the actual plans are disclosed it’s not the first time one has thought about it. It may make one’s decision making process a little easier once an opprotunity is presented.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[GregT]

The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting. A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?

St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
Maui is nice, but we have that.
Kauai is nice, but we have that.

Mexico is new and is a cool addition

Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.

So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?

(This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today. I could be wrong on that.)

I look forward to comments of others.

Best,

Greg

 

[Fasttr]

The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting. A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?

St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
Maui is nice, but we have that.
Kauai is nice, but we have that.

Mexico is new and is a cool addition

Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.

So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?

(This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today. I could be wrong on that.)

I look forward to comments of others.

Best,

Greg

Would I welcome the additional options.....yes.

Would I pay more to access them....no

 

[kds4]

So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this? But would pay for II membership.

The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit. It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.

II also offers the ability to stay for less than a week. Do a search on the Interval site for 'Short-Stay Exchanges' and you will find the information. Essentially, each week deposited in Interval can be split into 2 short stay exchanges of up to 6 nights each. Not all destinations are available, but if you can find desired locations you can get up to 12 nights from a single 7 night deposit.

 

[Powderday]

The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting. A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?

St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
Maui is nice, but we have that.
Kauai is nice, but we have that.

Mexico is new and is a cool addition

Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.

So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?

(This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today. I could be wrong on that.)

I look forward to comments of others.

Best,

Greg

 

[Powderday]

For the few of us crazies who enjoy snow-covered mountains instead of beaches;
Westin Riverfront
Sheraton Steamboat

 

[bazzap]

The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting. A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?

St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
Maui is nice, but we have that.
Kauai is nice, but we have that.

Mexico is new and is a cool addition

Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.

So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?

(This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today. I could be wrong on that.)

I look forward to comments of others.

Best,

Greg

The Westin St John is closed until further notice, so not an option anyway until January 2019 at the earliest and possibly a fair while later, which is a real shame for the local residents.
It is one of my favourite islands.
http://www.westinresortstjohn.com/
Important Notice about Hurricanes Irma and Maria
The Caribbean Islands, including St. John and St. Thomas, were significantly affected by Hurricanes Irma and Maria. Our recovery process requires the cancellation of all reservations with scheduled arrivals through January 3, 2019. As we make progress, the resort will publicize updates if these dates change.

 

[vikingsholm]

The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting. A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?

St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
Maui is nice, but we have that.
Kauai is nice, but we have that.

Mexico is new and is a cool addition

Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.

So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?

(This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today. I could be wrong on that.)

I look forward to comments of others.

Best,

Greg

Greg, since you've been skeptical about Hyatt integration, I'm going to throw out some speculation as well. (Just because it's kind of fun, even if grasping at straws).

I think Marriott VC will try to make the existing Marriott, Vistana, and Hyatt branded properties as widely interchangeable as possible within the new structure, while retaining most favoritisms that existed within each system for their respective owners in making reservations. At some cost to owners to access all the systems, of course.

Whether they'll do that by making Hyatt more easily/availably tradeable as weeks within II than they are now, or even go as far to remove the Hyatt name to make it more interchangeable if that's what Hyatt insists on, I think Marriott will consider these properties as theirs going forward, and will do what it takes. We'll see!

 

[bobpark56]

Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?

Our Grande Vista 2BR gold week is rated at 2175 points. It costs 1900 points to get a comparable gold week in May, but 2500 points to get the same unit in the Sept-Dec gold season. Go figure. Our experience is that depositing a May week with Interval works at least as well as depositing a Sep-Dec week when it comes to trading power with Interval.

 

[bobpark56]

We'll have to disagree, Steve. As far as I'm concerned, based on unit size, placement and consecutive-stay priority, all of my II exchanges were a downgrade of what I own. All of it was no different than a DC Points Member having to accept - when exchanging their Week for Points - a smaller unit, lesser view and lower priority in the placement hierarchy. You can call it what you like but it's all the same skim to me.
<snip>

We just completed a week at Newport Coast Villas that we obtained through I.I. with a Grand Vista gold unit. Seemed like an upgrade to us. (we have had others)

 

[dioxide45]

Our Grande Vista 2BR gold week is rated at 2175 points. It costs 1900 points to get a comparable gold week in May, but 2500 points to get the same unit in the Sept-Dec gold season. Go figure. Our experience is that depositing a May week with Interval works at least as well as depositing a Sep-Dec week when it comes to trading power with Interval.

Orlando in May has a much higher TDI than any of those fall weeks.

 

[GregT]

Yes there are definitely upgrade opportunities though II - I love trading my Worldmark and staying at Marriott’s (shout-out to PerryM) but Sue and I both own premium units where only downtrades are possible.

II is a great option for all of us and I own two dedicated traders to exploit the opportunities that Bob refers too - but there were many pissed Marriott owners who didn’t spend the time/care enough/whatever and Marriott capitalized on it with DC.

So yes, both uptrades and downtrades are possible - and TUGgers have figured much of it out.

Best,

Greg

 

[bobpark56]

The Westin St John is closed until further notice, so not an option anyway until January 2019 at the earliest and possibly a fair while later, which is a real shame for the local residents.
It is one of my favourite islands.
http://www.westinresortstjohn.com/
Important Notice about Hurricanes Irma and Maria
The Caribbean Islands, including St. John and St. Thomas, were significantly affected by Hurricanes Irma and Maria. Our recovery process requires the cancellation of all reservations with scheduled arrivals through January 3, 2019. As we make progress, the resort will publicize updates if these dates change.

Vistana (formerly Starwood) did a much better job than Marriott when compensating owners for weeks lost to hurricane damage. Perhaps Marriott could learn a thing or two here...though I doubt we can count on it.

 

[dioxide45]

Vistana (formerly Starwood) did a much better job than Marriott when compensating owners for weeks lost to hurricane damage. Perhaps Marriott could learn a thing or two here...though I doubt we can count on it.

I am sure we will see them go to the lowest common denominator, and that is Marriott. The owner friendly polices of Vistana will be a thing of the past.