[2017] Why NOT to make a voluntary ARDA financial contribution this year, with your maintenance fee payment

[TUGBrian]

indeed, and developers have no interest in additional fees for owners that arent going to themselves. Rest assured if ARDAROC didnt even exist, ARDA itself or developer/industry lawers would be lobbying against these measures.

ie, they dont want to make timeshare ownership more expensive than it already is, when that additional expense is not going to the developer but instead the state or local government.

there is absolutely no reason to pretend that they are doing this solely for the benefit of owners, although I admit the result is the same.

 

[JIMinNC]

Brian, is there an organization with any clout (i.e.- enough potential $$$$$ to get noticed by legislators, etc.) that would be in a position to represent owner interests that may also go against the interests of developers? I'm not aware of any, so unless such an entity exists, as ecwinch just said, ARDA-ROC may be the only realistic vehicle to be able to effectively lobby for any issues that impact owners - acknowledging that their scope will be limited to those issues where developer and owner interests align.

 

[TUGBrian]

and thats fine with me, in that case they should remove the term "owners" from their name as they only represent them as a secondary result when their cause aligns with developer interests.

My only argument is how they collect their "donations" under the guise of representing owners rights....but that is pretty much a common theme in this industry today(e.g. misrepresenting something to convince an owner to fork over money). Telling the truth isnt going to get 9 million owners to donate money year in and year out.

 

[SueDonJ]

This discussion also brings to mind, "we have met the enemy etcetcetc." There are many times on TUG that I disagree with what other owners want the timeshare companies to be doing, especially things that might cause a developer/manager to invoke its right to walk away from resorts where I own, so I wouldn't be in favor of ARDA-ROC or any other group actively campaigning for any and every idea that owners suggest.

For example, many MANY owners want the timeshare companies to be able to release ownership lists to any owners who ask for any reason. I completely disagree with this yet fully appreciate that MVW's and the other timeshare companies' position against this, supported by privacy laws, is completely self-serving. Apparently ARDA-ROC is working on a compromise measure of some sort although I haven't yet looked into the exact details. What I do know is that I'd be against the release of my contact information to anyone except a legal entity who has been contracted for a class-type action and is provably knowledgeable about the contested issue. Yes, I realize that would mean I'd effectively be more on the side of the companies than my fellow owners, being against any fishing in order to try to determine if such an action would be worth exploring, but that would be my stand.

That's just one example, there are more.

 

[SueDonJ]

and thats fine with me, in that case they should remove the term "owners" from their name as they only represent them as a secondary result when their cause aligns with developer interests. ...

But it isn't ALWAYS the case that ARDA-ROC is in step with ARDA, an example being the ownership list issue I just posted. There's no way that any timeshare company wants it to be made easier for owners to contact each other without the company being involved, yet ARDA-ROC is working on something that might allow just that!

Whether they can be successful in the face of opposition from ARDA on behalf of the industry companies is another question, probably not, but they appear to be at least trying.

 

[BocaBoy]

indeed, and developers have no interest in additional fees for owners that arent going to themselves. Rest assured if ARDAROC didnt even exist, ARDA itself or developer/industry lawers would be lobbying against these measures.

Perhaps, but I believe the fact that the coalition organization also represents OWNERS gives it more persuasive effect than if it were just the developers.

 

[BocaBoy]

Recently, last year or the year before, MVW included in the MF's package a one-sheet introduction to the ARDA-ROC representative for MVW owners. I don't remember all the details (and that piece of paper is now somewhere in all the moving boxes that haven't yet been unpacked) but I remember noting that he was neither a timeshare developer nor employed by a timeshare company. I haven't gotten any snail-mail MF's packages yet so I don't know if something similar is included this year.

My recollection is that I have received this type of letter every year since ARDA-ROC was founded, which was rather early in my 30 years of Marriott timeshare ownership. And you are right, the Marriott owners' representative to ARDA-ROC has no connection to Marriott other than the fact that they own one or more Marriott timeshare units.

 

[WBP]

In my opinion, everything about the ARDA-ROC is wrong, and their (ARDA-ROC) business model is no different than that of some of the (ARDA) members - - prey on uninformed consumers (with deception).

In my opinion, ARDA-ROC is nothing more than a pig sporting lipstick.

Buyer Beware!

 

[BocaBoy]

In my opinion, everything about the ARDA-ROC is wrong, and their (ARDA-ROC) business model is no different than that of some of the (ARDA) members - - prey on uninformed consumers (with deception).

In my opinion, ARDA-ROC is nothing more than a pig sporting lipstick.

Buyer Beware!

May we have some evidence to back that up please?

 

[WBP]

May we have some evidence to back that up please?

Sure. I think several points have been made in this thread by Brian and myself. I believe those points establish the basis for my statement. Anything more than that would take a Grad Student to do the manual labor, and I don't have one of those handy [deleted.]

 

[ecwinch]

indeed, and developers have no interest in additional fees for owners that arent going to themselves. Rest assured if ARDAROC didnt even exist, ARDA itself or developer/industry lawers would be lobbying against these measures.

ie, they dont want to make timeshare ownership more expensive than it already is, when that additional expense is not going to the developer but instead the state or local government.

there is absolutely no reason to pretend that they are doing this solely for the benefit of owners, although I admit the result is the same.

Agree, but I dont really care what their motives are. I would just rather not have to pay $140 a week in taxes on top of the property taxes the resort is already paying out of my dues.

 

[dioxide45]

So how many company representatives sit on the ARDA-ROC board? More than one? If so, then is it really an Owners Coalition? While I can agree that in some cases owner concerns coincide with developer concerns, but there are things that the ARDA-ROC should have opposed as they were very consumer unfriendly but the developers were pushing for them. ARDA-ROC wasn't there standing up for the owners because the owners don't control the board.

BTW, I suspect that from searching just a few of the names on the below list that the bulk of the ARDA-ROC board is made up of developer representatives.

http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/about/default.aspx?id=1354

 

[BocaBoy]

Sure. I think several points have been made in this thread by Brian and myself. I believe those points establish the basis for my statement. Anything more than that would take a Grad Student to do the manual labor, and I don't have one of those handy [deleted.]

I asked for evidence, not conclusory allegations.

 

[WBP]

So how many company representatives sit on the ARDA-ROC board? More than one? If so, then is it really an Owners Coalition? While I can agree that in some cases owner concerns coincide with developer concerns, but there are things that the ARDA-ROC should have opposed as they were very consumer unfriendly but the developers were pushing for them. ARDA-ROC wasn't there standing up for the owners because the owners don't control the board.

BTW, I suspect that from searching just a few of the names on the below list that the bulk of the ARDA-ROC board is made up of developer representatives.

http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/about/default.aspx?id=1354

Dean,

Great question.

I posted the very information that you ask about, in this thread, in August 2017. It is below:

Here is the latest membership list of the ARDA-ROC from their very own website. While it is difficult to distinguish the Industry Insider members, vs. non-industry or consumer members, one clue is the designation "RRP" that follows the names of 16 of the 24 members (2/3). RRP is an acronym for "Registered Resort Professional," a designation created by none other than the "ARDA" international Foundation. It is conceivable that other members of the ARDA-ROC Board are, in fact, Industry Insiders, who have not "earned" the RRP designation, in which the case, the ARDA-ROC Board would be more heavily weighted with Industry Insiders.

Yes, BocaBoy, is correct, we owners are asked to contribute to the ARDA-ROC. I maintain that you can change the wrapper, but the contents remain the same.

http://www.arda.org/arprrp/

NOTE: Robert Webb, Esq, RRP, a Partner in the law firm, Baker and Hostetler (and a member of the ARDA-ROC Board), writes here that he and his firm represents Diamond Resorts (I'd vigorously encourage you to read Attorney Webb's letter of January 16, 2015, referenced in the link, immediately below):

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Diamond-Resorts-Lawsuit/Diamond Resort Complaint I.pdf


ARDA-ROC Board

Ken McKelvey CPA, RRP, ARDA-ROC Chairman, Defender Resorts, Inc.

John Albert, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

John Burlingame, RRP, Hyatt Vacation Ownership, Inc.

Dale Curtin, Vistana Signature Experiences

Janice Feirstein RRP, Daily Management, Inc.

Paul Goodrich, SPM Resorts, Inc.

Don Harrill RRP, Holiday Inn Club Vacations

Neil Hutchinson RRP, Hilton Grand Vacations Company

William Ingersoll RRP, Holland & Knight

Kimberly Tramontana RRP, Breckenridge Grand Vacations

Tom Nelson, Holiday Inn Club Vacations

Howard Nusbaum RRP, ARDA

Ron Naves, Welk Resorts

David Pontius RRP, Bluegreen Resorts

Geoff Richards, Wyndham Vacation Ownership

Chris Van Ruiten RRP, Comerica Securities, Inc.

Lisa Siegert-Free RRP, Christie Lodge

Sverre Thomassen, Marriott Desert Springs Villas

Robert Webb Esq., RRP, Baker & Hostetler

Stephen Weisz, RRP, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

Robert Miller, RRP, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

Jon Fredericks, RRP, Welk Resorts

Mark Wang, Hilton Grand Vacations

Richard Muller, RRP, VRI Resorts

 

[TUGBrian]

truly representative of the average timeshare owner indeed =)

when the foxes guard the henhouse, there is no need for hens to worry aye?

 

[dioxide45]

Here is the latest membership list of the ARDA-ROC from their very own website. While it is difficult to distinguish the Industry Insider members, vs. non-industry or consumer members, one clue is the designation "RRP" that follows the names of 16 of the 24 members (2/3). RRP is an acronym for "Registered Resort Professional," a designation created by none other than the "ARDA" international Foundation. It is conceivable that other members of the ARDA-ROC Board are, in fact, Industry Insiders, who have not "earned" the RRP designation, in which the case, the ARDA-ROC Board would be more heavily weighted with Industry Insiders.

I don't think the RRP means anything in determining a developer rep vs an owner independent rep.The three people from Marriott, two have the RRP after their name. All three hold very high level executive positions at MVW. There is no Marriott member on the board that is not an executive with MVW. Where is this owner representative that was mentioned earlier in this thread? Is there some other consulting reps that represent owner interest? Even still, they likely hold no voting power in determining which laws to lobby for or against. As Brian indicated, it is the fox watching the hen house.

Stephen Weisz, RRP, Marriott Vacations Worldwide President and CEO
Robert Miller, RRP, Marriott Vacations Worldwide Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer - International
John Albert, Marriott Vacations Worldwide Vice President of Operations Planning

 

[rickandcindy23]

Don't be fooled, people. Give them money, and you are supporting the developers' interests and not your own.

State laws mandate whether owners of an HOA are allowed to have owner lists. In Colorado, Hatrack (remember him from years back?), sought a lawyer and forced Twin Rivers' management company to give him a list of owners. Now it's available to all owners. And why is that important? BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW. Owners need to be able to communicate to one another. Keeping owners' names secret is how a mangement company keeps total control over the owners. ARDA-ROC didn't help him with lawyer costs. Of course they wouldn't because they have no interest in the legacy resorts and their problems with aging owners.

 

[WBP]

The ARDA-ROC has the best interest of timeshare owners at heart?

Read this, from an earlier post of mine:

NOTE: Robert Webb, Esq, RRP, a Partner in the law firm, Baker and Hostetler (and a member of the ARDA-ROC Board), writes here that he and his firm represents Diamond Resorts (I'd vigorously encourage you to read Attorney Webb's letter of January 16, 2015, referenced in the link, immediately below):

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Diamond-Resorts-Lawsuit/Diamond Resort Complaint I.pdf

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[RLS50]

Don't be fooled, people. Give them money, and you are supporting the developers' interests and not your own.

State laws mandate whether owners of an HOA are allowed to have owner lists. In Colorado, Hatrack (remember him from years back?), sought a lawyer and forced Twin Rivers' management company to give him a list of owners. Now it's available to all owners. And why is that important? BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW. Owners need to be able to communicate to one another. Keeping owners' names secret is how a mangement company keeps total control over the owners. ARDA-ROC didn't help him with lawyer costs. Of course they wouldn't because they have no interest in the legacy resorts and their problems with aging owners.

I absolutely agree with this. The power of social media has already allowed owner groups to form and organize for better communication and owner education. However, even those owner groups are limited in what they can do when Developer controlled HOA boards are allowed to keep owner contact information secret. In almost every example across the country, the resorts that were able to effect meaningful change on their Developer controlled HOA boards somehow got access to the owner contact information, either in court or some other means.

The protection of privacy argument to me rings hollow. Because we have no privacy now. I know these companies sell our owner information to all kinds of other sales organizations. Shortly after Diamond took over Gold Key we started getting inundated with sales calls from Diamond and other organizations. Multiple times per week. I suspect they all sell their data on us to some varying degree.

Being able keep the owner contact information secret is the Developers Great Wall of China that protects their Empires from the Mongol hordes (owner). Release of owner rolls would not impact all Developers the same way. A Company like Disney may hardly notice. Marriott would feel some pressure, but largely have happy owners. This information would probably create more problems for companies like Westgate, Diamond, Wyndham, etc.

I don't think all Developers are bad or evil. Perfection is not and should not be the standard. I consider myself a loyal Marriott customer / owner. I like the Westin product. I also know there are some looney owners out there, and I would never want some of their ideas implemented. I am for more balance. Right now there largely is none.

 

[JIMinNC]

The ARDA-ROC has the best interest of timeshare owners at heart?

Read this, from an earlier post of mine:

NOTE: Robert Webb, Esq, RRP, a Partner in the law firm, Baker and Hostetler (and a member of the ARDA-ROC Board), writes here that he and his firm represents Diamond Resorts (I'd vigorously encourage you to read Attorney Webb's letter of January 16, 2015, referenced in the link, immediately below):

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Diamond-Resorts-Lawsuit/Diamond Resort Complaint I.pdf

Draw your own conclusions.

I know nothing about the dispute this letter references, but needless to say, as a former Diamond owner, I do not have a great opinion of that company.

But having said that, in that letter, he is acting in his capacity as legal counsel for his client. I am sure in his role on the ARDA-ROC board he also would not take action contrary to the interests of his client either. But as I've said previously, just because an organization like ARDA-ROC doesn't stand on the owners' side on every issue, doesn't mean they can't represent us on some issues. As an analogy, I know of no political party or candidate that I agree with on every issue, but that doesn't stop me from supporting and contributing to the campaigns of parties or candidates whose positions align with my preferences more than their opponent's positions do. After reviewing the mission of ARDA-ROC, I can see some alignment with a few things that I think can be important to owners, so in the absence of another organization that better represents owner interests, I may at least reconsider supporting ARDA-ROC for the several owner issues that they do seem to champion.

 

[TUGBrian]

there is a vast chasm of difference between their title and "mission statement", and what they actually do. Reading that mission statement id contrubute to them too! if it actually worked that way.

Just to summarize, so far we have had 0 examples of situations where arda-roc actually went to bat for owners against the interests of the industry and or developers.

0 useful campaigns against predatory sales tactics rampant among their own membership (and those sitting on the ARDA-ROC board)

0 useful campaigns against upfront fee resale scams (note that NUMEROUS upfront fee companies are ARDA members)

basically this outfit collects millions of dollars each year directly from owners pocketbooks either because the owners dont actually know its part of their annual dues (despite it being labeled as voluntary, and we all know the reason this is automatically deducted vs something owners would check a box to pay willingly)....or thru misleading owners into thinking its an outfit that has their best interests in mind. Their entire pitch reads just like a timeshare sales presentation...all sizzle and no steak. (to coin a phrase from another owner).

If you wish to contribute to them knowing full well that the only benefit you will reap are the ones where said interest also aligns with the developer interest...that is most certainly your right! Just as it is to buy retail instead of resale! However until I see regular examples (or even any tangible examples) of ARDA-ROC actually going to bat for owners for the most common things that are a detriment to owners going on the past two or three decades...we will continue to suggest "speaking with your wallet" and not making the contribution.

heck feel free to write them and tell them youd be happy to contribute each year if they were to focus on the GIGANTIC issues that continue to give the industry a black eye year in and year out. I think we all know however that those requests would fall on deaf ears.

 

[Egret1986]

there is a vast chasm of difference between their title and "mission statement", and what they actually do. Reading that mission statement id contrubute to them too! if it actually worked that way.

basically this outfit collects millions of dollars each year directly from owners pocketbooks either because the owners dont actually know its part of their annual dues (despite it being labeled as voluntary, and we all know the reason this is automatically deducted vs something owners would check a box to pay willingly)....or thru misleading owners into thinking its an outfit that has their best interests in mind. Their entire pitch reads just like a timeshare sales presentation...all sizzle and no steak. (to coin a phrase from another owner).

As Brian states, their MO is to mislead owners in exactly the way that the timeshare weasels mislead during a timeshare sales presentation. If everything is above-board, there's no need to mislead. I refuse to support this group with my wallet. Unfortunately, I'm in the minority.

 

[Egret1986]

Don't be fooled, people. Give them money, and you are supporting the developers' interests and not your own.

State laws mandate whether owners of an HOA are allowed to have owner lists. In Colorado, Hatrack (remember him from years back?), sought a lawyer and forced Twin Rivers' management company to give him a list of owners. Now it's available to all owners. And why is that important? BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW. Owners need to be able to communicate to one another. Keeping owners' names secret is how a mangement company keeps total control over the owners. ARDA-ROC didn't help him with lawyer costs. Of course they wouldn't because they have no interest in the legacy resorts and their problems with aging owners.

I have run across two issues in the last 60 days at resorts where I own and it could be beneficial to be able to have owner lists.

At a recent HOA meeting it was suggested to me that if I could get additional owners to contact DRI regarding a carry-over policy from a previous developer that I could possibly enact a change to the policy. The policy for collecting additional fees for making usage requests within 60 days of check-in and losing usage within 14 days of check-in is not a DRI-wide policy. It is only at these former Gold Key resorts that were acquired by DRI where this policy is in effect (according to the DRI Board members).

Another resort has recently decided to institute a policy charging RCI exchange guests a $125 housekeeping fee for ALL weeks and points exchanges. This is ridiculous. I know that I will no longer exchange back into this resort. Amenity fees are one thing, but a housekeeping fee is ridiculous, especially one this high. I believe this is an effort to bring in revenue so that maintenance fees can be kept unrealistically low. I feel this is short-sighted and will be detrimental in the long run. Also this resort never reaches a quorum for the HOA meetings. The board never changes because there is never the ability to vote.

 

[JIMinNC]

there is a vast chasm of difference between their title and "mission statement", and what they actually do. Reading that mission statement id contrubute to them too! if it actually worked that way.

Just to summarize, so far we have had 0 examples of situations where arda-roc actually went to bat for owners against the interests of the industry and or developers.

0 useful campaigns against predatory sales tactics rampant among their own membership (and those sitting on the ARDA-ROC board)

0 useful campaigns against upfront fee resale scams (note that NUMEROUS upfront fee companies are ARDA members)

basically this outfit collects millions of dollars each year directly from owners pocketbooks either because the owners dont actually know its part of their annual dues (despite it being labeled as voluntary, and we all know the reason this is automatically deducted vs something owners would check a box to pay willingly)....or thru misleading owners into thinking its an outfit that has their best interests in mind. Their entire pitch reads just like a timeshare sales presentation...all sizzle and no steak. (to coin a phrase from another owner).

If you wish to contribute to them knowing full well that the only benefit you will reap are the ones where said interest also aligns with the developer interest...that is most certainly your right! Just as it is to buy retail instead of resale! However until I see regular examples (or even any tangible examples) of ARDA-ROC actually going to bat for owners for the most common things that are a detriment to owners going on the past two or three decades...we will continue to suggest "speaking with your wallet" and not making the contribution.

heck feel free to write them and tell them youd be happy to contribute each year if they were to focus on the GIGANTIC issues that continue to give the industry a black eye year in and year out. I think we all know however that those requests would fall on deaf ears.

Brian, I can't really disagree with anything you write here. I guess the only place where our thoughts might diverge slightly is that I'm giving at least some consideration to limited support of ARDA-ROC this year to support those handful of issues that they do work on that I agree with, mainly because there is no one else that I'm aware of that truly speaks for owners on other issues in this arena (except for TUG, of course!).

To that point, even though our numbers are very small compared to ARDA-ROC, has TUG ever given thought to creating the beginnings of some sort of PAC or other independent owner voice that could begin to focus on these broader issues that do not align with both owner and developer interests? While TUG represents only a tiny portion of the timeshare owner universe, I can't imagine there is a larger group of active, engaged owners anywhere. Throughout history, many movements for change that have challenged the status quo have started small and grown into forces for change. You could call it the Timeshare Owners' Group of America (TOGA). The group's get togethers could be called TOGA Parties!

 

[TUGBrian]

The problem you run into is that its not "new laws" or "new legislation" that is required to combat the two major issues that face the majority of timeshare owners (resale scams, and fraudulent sales practices)...in fact many states already have existing laws that cover both of these.

As with most situations, its the actual enforcement of the laws that is the problem...however its easier to get people to quiet down and believe you are doing something when you spend alot of money and draft up some fancy new law or legislation that sounds like the answer to everyones problem....but without any actual enforcement wont make a lick of difference.

Take florida for instance, the timeshare capital of the world...with most major developers actually having their headquarters (or at least a major brick and mortar office) in orlando....fraudulent resale practices are already illegal in this state...and its illegal to mislead or lie to a consumer during a sales presentation, in fact florida has some pretty ridiculous consumer protection laws...but major developers get around this due to salespersons having a ridiculous turnover rate (likely wont even be working there anymore once any complaint (if it ever does) makes it high enough up the food chain to actually be investigated...those that actually do would have to have a good number of similar complaints from state residents all against the same resort or salesperson etc.

Even for those that are penalized by state AGs, the developer simply washes their hands by pointing out that they dont stand for such practices and would never knowingly allow their employees to lie or mislead customers intentionally and that they will be sure to address or modify their "training programs" to ensure something like that doesnt happen in the future...its the same rinse and repeat apology they have been using for decades.

Combined with the combination of victims feeling shamed or "Stupid" for falling for these schemes, or worse...being publicly shamed on social media or in the press for even buying a timeshare in the first place (just take a look at the comments section of any story about timeshare scams or victims)...it gives the impression that the victims somehow deserved what they got! You have the result that these crimes are simply not very high on the list of important things to deal with for just about every law enforcement agency in the state outside the good folks at the DPBR...and there are only a few of them! Its like trying to empty a swimming pool with a spoon.

If there were a way to actually make a difference, id be happy to hear it and support it to the best of my ability! However at the end of the day, the most effective solution we have found to actually benefit owners, is educating them directly! Once an owner is aware of the scams and how to spot them, they are far less likely to be a victim!

Believe me, if owners were directed to the TUG advice section or forums as a reward for their "7 dollar" voluntary donation to ARDA every year, they would get more for their money and the industry would change overnight =)