Bill Cosby and the justice system

[SueDonJ]

Okay ...

I am of the generation of most of these ladies. I was single and had some fun. I was NOT a party girl or club dancer or groupie --- but I was around some of the scenes and many of the people the next day.

My take: 3-4 drinks into any person, some weed, some blow, and a few pills .... and then remember, WHAT you did 12-18 hours earlier??? And with whom? Or remember, who your friends were hanging with or who left when?

And 35 or 40 years later .... even my best memories are a bit faded as are most of my worst times .... AND I had some really bad years involving cops (jerks) and judges (bigger jerks) where I was a domestic violence victim ....

I am so thankful cell phones weigh 15+ pounds and did not have cameras. And no pictures could be uploaded to the internet.

Hmmmm. I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. Do you mean that we all did things we may have regretted the next day? Well, sure! But I never, and don't know anyone who ever, claimed "Rape!" after a simply regrettable escapade. I do know women who were date-raped (fitting the legal definition, I mean) but have always been afraid to come forward because of the spotlight that would have been shone on their consensual sexual history in order to discredit them.

 

[davidvel]

Like I said before, I don't know how much of what's been alleged is true but I think there is enough of a developed pattern to surmise that Cosby is probably guilty of some of the charges.

But about what you say above - there's a difference between someone voluntarily taking drugs, and someone being slipped a drug in his/her drink or some other way. When it's alleged that "date rape drugs" have been used, the allegation usually means that the person suffering the effects of such drugs had no intent to use them.

Also, regardless of whether a "blackout" is caused by drugs voluntarily taken or unknowingly given, "rape" is considered to fit the legal definition if the victim is not able to give consent for the sexual act. Victims in a blackout state cannot give consent. There was a time (which meshes with some of the allegations against Cosby) when the legal definition didn't include this but it's because of what commonly happened during that time that the legal definition was amended. The amendment wouldn't have occurred if it wasn't widely accepted then and now that an alleged victim's drug use and blackouts caused by it are NOT in and of themselves a defense against a charge of rape.

This is all true, but many (not all) of the allegations are that the accusers voluntarily drank alcohol and took pills Cosby gave them. Some allege they didn't know the pills were as strong as they turned out to be. Denise's point about reading all the specific allegations of each individual accuser is well taken, as opposed to lumping them all together as one.

 

[vacationhopeful]

What I was trying to say is ... who did what and with whom was hard to remember the next day or the following week back in the era. Remembering 35+ years later ... a bit of fiction or hearsay or evolved stories over the years..

PS I was a domestic violence victim of that era. I truly can not recall the dates and times of that crap. I was stalked and hit complete with cops, blood and bruises and court dates never ending. And hiding and moving (4 separate houses) and lost jobs and changing phones number. It went on for YEARS.
And yes, I have had "flashbacks" - one where walking into a recent house when had been broken into -- finding a pile by the door of stuff. Just glancing at the pile, my thought was "Oh crap. So & So did this". And it had been 5+ years since the last time. And the state trooper who responded answer the phone - he also remembered me from 5+ years earlier & where my house was - the only time he dealt with me & he flashback to that one encounter. He did not have to look me up nor did I have to give him my address ... but I did not get unhinged. It was just a random housebreak in ... just must have had the same taste in décor as the ex-bf ... I threw the stuff out.

 

[davidvel]

"Did you consent to the sexual acts you're alleging happened?" If the answer is "no" that's all the police should need in order to file a complaint. If the AG's office has no reason to disbelieve it at face value, that should be enough for an indictment. During a trial the defense shouldn't be able to ask anything related to the victim's sexual history, or, submit anything implying that a victim's inherent or perceived sexuality is a factor. BUT any past false rape claims should be admissible. That's what I think, even realizing that what I want to take place stretches a bit the normal parameters for delineating "legitimate" Court items.

(Of course in this specific Cosby-related discussion the alleged victims are all women. But it's interesting to me that in the overall discussion here most are still assuming that rape victims are women. In fact, rape is a crime perpetrated against homosexual men by homosexual men in significant numbers, most significantly with date rape incidents. One reason complaints are not lodged in equal numbers as the incidents is the same as that found with female victims - that promiscuous people are still wrongly seen as "asking for it." No reason to say this other than, I find it interesting.)

The other complex legal issue involves that 30-40 years have passed in some of these cases. Many of the laws protecting victims, and the underlying consent and rape laws themselves have changed (for the better), but which are applied?

On a related issue, many people think that the age of consent is 18. That is only true in 10 states: Arizona, California, Delaware, Idaho, North Dakota, Oregon, Tennessee, Virginia, Wisconsin, Florida.

It is 17 in Colorado, Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Texas, Wyoming, Louisiana.

In the remaining 31 states the base age of consent is only 16. And these have all changed over the last 40 years.

 

[DeniseM]

Some of the women had a social relationship with Cosby, but some "thought" they had a professional/mentoring relationship with him.

If you were meeting with someone professionally, and then woke up in a stupor, with your clothes off, I don't think you'd blow it off as just too much partying. Completely different scenario.

 

[SueDonJ]

This is all true, but many (not all) of the allegations are that the accusers voluntarily drank alcohol and took pills Cosby gave them. Some allege they didn't know the pills were as strong as they turned out to be. Denise's point about reading all the specific allegations of each individual accuser is well taken, as opposed to lumping them all together as one.

Yes, but I also said that a person in a drugged state cannot be held legally responsible for consenting, regardless of whether they're under the influence voluntarily or otherwise. Each allegation is separate, of course, but the common thread in the cases where date rape is alleged is that they each were incapacitated to the point where they were not able to consent to a sexual act.

Of course you're correct that some of the date-rape and consent laws have changed since, which I also mentioned. But the reason I responded to Bill was that I interpreted his post to mean that the women who alleged date-rape could have been "asking for it" because they voluntarily took drugs.

 

[ampaholic]

"Did you consent to the sexual acts you're alleging happened?" If the answer is "no" that's all the police should need in order to file a complaint. --snip

What a notion - preventing the detective from any "detecting". What if the next question would have been "did you consent to snorting cocaine and playing strip poker?" well, yes. "Did he snort as much cocaine as you did and strip down as much as you did?" Well I don't remember cause I passed out.

can "Sexual consent" only be given verbally - what about on TV shows where the woman shows up at the mans bed and drops her robe - is THAT consent?

 

[SueDonJ]

What a notion - preventing the detective from any "detecting". What if the next question would have been "did you consent to snorting cocaine and playing strip poker?" well, yes. "Did he snort as much cocaine as you did and strip down as much as you did?" Well I don't remember cause I passed out.

can "Sexual consent" only be given verbally - what about on TV shows where the woman shows up at the mans bed and drops her robe - is THAT consent?

Could be, but not if she says, or is unable to say, "no" at any point after.

I did say that what I would want to happen would result in a different process for the police and court system. But I still want the benefit of the doubt to be afforded to the accuser as much as to the accused and that's not what has happened historically for alleged rape victims.

 

[easyrider]

The 15 year old was interviewed on msnbc and during the interview they showed this girl wearing a bunny outfit. To me, anyway, it looks like she was working at the grotto.

Then again, maybe it was someone different in the bunny outfit that has an accusation of sexual misbehavior against Cosby.

Another oddity, not related to Cosby, is all of the women school teachers that have had affairs with minors in the last decade. When a guy does this its automatically a bad dealio. When a woman does this it just doesn't seem as bad. Why is that ?

I guess guys cant be raped by women ? or can they ? idk. Don't google this, I already did and the results are nasty.

Bill

 

[DeniseM]

The 15 year old was interviewed on msnbc and during the interview they showed this girl wearing a bunny outfit. To me, anyway, it looks like she was working at the grotto.

That is incorrect - here are the allegations:

Huth's lawsuit states that she and a 16-year-old friend first met Cosby at a Los Angeles-area film shoot and the comedian gave them drinks a week later at a tennis club.

The lawsuit states that Cosby took them to the Playboy Mansion after several drinks.

According to documents, Cosby had told Huth, then 15, and her friend, who was 16, to lie about their ages if asked at the Playboy Mansion. The two girls told staff that they were 19. In return, Huth and her friend were “served with multiple alcoholic beverages.

 

[ampaholic]

Could be, but not if she says, or is unable to say, "no" at any point after.

I did say that what I would want to happen would result in a different process for the police and court system. But I still want the benefit of the doubt to be afforded to the accuser as much as to the accused and that's not what has happened historically for alleged rape victims.

My (attempted) point is: there is no "one size fits all" rule of what constitutes "evidence" and what doesn't, just like there is no "Consent CC401 form" that a guy can have a gal fill out, you, know - for later in court.

Really, you simply can't slap a bunch of restrictions on Detectives evidence gathering capabilities and expect to make the situation "better".

 

[ampaholic]

Bill Cosby is firing back with a lawsuit of his own.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bill-cosbys-lawyer-fires-back-at-judy-huth-lawsuit/

Pay attention to what the cop spokesman says in the video.

Perhaps the cops will eventually get involved - naw, why should the woman have to provide any actual "evidence"? She said is good enough for 1/2 the jury.

I'm going to go look up the word alleged again.

 

[DeniseM]

Bill Cosby is firing back with a lawsuit of his own.

Yes - that actually had already happened before this thread was started.

Cosby is looking bad right now, and this is something he can do to try to defend himself - without speaking to the public:

-If she's lying, and he wins the lawsuit, it will help to discredit the others who have accused him.

-This is one of the most damaging accusations, because Huth claims she was only 15 at the time of the sexual assault.

-If it's ugly, the lawsuit may discourage some of the others from pursuing action - even if they are telling the truth.

 

[ampaholic]

Yes - that actually had already happened before this thread was started.

Cosby is looking bad right now, and this is something he can do to try to defend himself - without speaking to the public:

-If she's lying, and he wins the lawsuit, it will help to discredit the others who have accused him.

-This is one of the most damaging accusations, because Huth claims she was only 15 at the time of the sexual assault.

-If it's ugly, the lawsuit may discourage some of the others from pursuing action - even if they are telling the truth.

Actually I didn't say it just happened today! (see how easy miscommunication is)

I agree there are very few ways he can defend himself - just going on the tonight show and saying "she's imagining things" would only throw gas on the situation.

Personally, I think it's a shame she didn't report it 40 years age - it's pretty stale now.

I suppose it is a lesson to women - when a man wants you to lie to officials and get drunk, stoned - perhaps, just perhaps "he wants to do bad things to you" as the True Blood theme goes.

 

[ondeadlin]

Every time rape accusations are discussed in the media, even when liberally peppered with the word “allegedly,” a sea of people wring their hands about how the accused is being deprived of his constitutional right to due process. None of the concerned seem unduly worried about this when it comes to crimes that aren’t rape, an oversight that suggests this concern is less about the integrity of the justice system and more about discouraging rape victims from coming forward.

Needless to say, discussing the fact that rape allegations exist and even examining the evidence for them publicly does not deprive the accused of his right to a trial and there is zero evidence that feminists wish to end jury trials for accused rapists. But the ugliness of this myth goes deeper than the surface dishonesty evident in the glib invocations of “due process” to scare people into silence outside of the courtroom. After all, those who are sincerely concerned about due process and getting to the truth of the matter would be clamoring for more investigations and more trials, especially since 60 percent of rapes aren’t even reported to the police. A true concern for due process would result in wanting more of those rapes reported. Instead, we see a continuing pressure on rape victims not to speak out about their experiences, but instead to quiver in silence and shame, afraid of being called liars and sluts while their rapists go free. Due process is a great thing. It will happen more often if victims feel free to come forward without the fear of being publicly castigated.

http://www.alternet.org/gender/4-th...ccusations?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

 

[DeniseM]

Personally, I think it's a shame she didn't report it 40 years age - it's pretty stale now.

At the age of 15, I would NOT have reported it either:

-I would have been afraid to tell my parents.
-I was some place I shouldn't have been.
-I was with someone I shouldn't have been with.
-I was drinking (a lot.)
-All things my parents told me never to do.

I suspect a lot of 15 year olds would hide this assault, because they would be more afraid of getting in trouble, than anything else.

 

[ondeadlin]

I suppose it is a lesson to women - when a man wants you to lie to officials and get drunk, stoned - perhaps, just perhaps "he wants to do bad things to you" as the True Blood theme goes.

This is a really, really unfortunate statement. It's way to close to "she asked for it." It completely fails to recognize that even if a woman does all those things, she doesn't bear any responsibility in being sexually assaulted.

 

[DeniseM]

This is a really, really unfortunate statement. It's way to close to "she asked for it." It completely fails to recognize that even if a woman does all those things, she doesn't bear any responsibility in being sexually assaulted.

Also - It was a 15 year old girl - a child - not a woman.

This is child molestation - not date rape.

 

[SueDonJ]

... I suppose it is a lesson to women - when a man wants you to lie to officials and get drunk, stoned - perhaps, just perhaps "he wants to do bad things to you" as the True Blood theme goes.

This is a really, really unfortunate statement. It's way to close to "she asked for it." It completely fails to recognize that even if a woman does all those things, she doesn't bear any responsibility in being sexually assaulted.

I completely agree. But sadly it really isn't a surprise, is it, that the particular bias still exists? It's not as though the legal changes with regard to consent and date-rape immediately changed the way alleged rape victims are treated when they come forward. It certainly doesn't help that unsupported theories like "9 out of 10 allegations are false" are still put forward.

 

[Jestjoan]

Beverly Johnson's story (hope this isn't a repeat)

www.vanityfair.com/culture/2014/12/bill-cosby-beverly-johnson-story

 

[DeniseM]

Thanks for sharing the article - it's a compelling read...

 

[ampaholic]

This is a really, really unfortunate statement. It's way to close to "she asked for it." It completely fails to recognize that even if a woman does all those things, she doesn't bear any responsibility in being sexually assaulted.

I don't recall when I have ever seen such a bull pucky statement.

You imply that first he went to her house and tied up her parents (so they could not influence her in a positive way) - then he captured her and put her out on the street where he could pick her up - then he held a gun to her head and forced her to lie to the official at the Playboy Club entrance.

Then he held her throat open and poured booze down it (since she would be breaking the law to do it herself - and yes the LAW applies to 15 year olds TOO).

And then she shagged him and he shagged her - constituting statutory rape since she was drunk/stoned stoopid and underage - while he was drunk/stoned and just plain stoopid.

A woman certainly DOES bear responsibility for blatantly ignoring several laws intended to protect her from EXACTLY what happened.

Your attemt to steal away from her her part in the stoopidness of that night makes her into and incompetent - not just a child.

Plenty of 15 year olds have been tried as ADULTS in this country (and some 13 and 14 year olds) so there is plenty of case law on the books showing that we (society) EXPECT a 15 year old to at minimum OBEY the LAW.

 

[DeniseM]

Rick - your comments are way off base, because that's not what he has been accused of at all. Please look it up.

Again - a 15 year old is not a woman. She was a child, and Cosby "groomed" her so he could molest her, and then he molested her.

Here is the "PG" version (appropriate for TUG.)

Cosby plied them with alcohol, and then took the 15 year old and her 16 year old friend to the Playboy Club. The 15 year old went to the bathroom. When she came out of the bathroom, Cosby was in the bed in the attached bedroom, in a state of undress. He attempted to put his hand down her pants, and also gripped her hand, and forced her to participate in a sex act.

As a woman of the same era, I would have no idea what to do if I was accosted in this same situation, at that age.

Nor would I have any clue that a man old enough to be my father intended to molest me, especially since I was there with my friend.

Besides his celebrity, at the time, Cosby was in his prime, and he was a large, and powerful man.

In this country, we do not try 15 year olds for being the victim of molestation.

 

[ondeadlin]

Rick, your post says more about your position than any attempt to rebut it from me could say. I will simply let my earlier comment and your response stand.

I completely agree. But sadly it really isn't a surprise, is it, that the particular bias still exists? It's not as though the legal changes with regard to consent and date-rape immediately changed the way alleged rape victims are treated when they come forward. It certainly doesn't help that unsupported theories like "9 out of 10 allegations are false" are still put forward.

No, not surprising, but it's profoundly disappointing.

 

[SueDonJ]

I don't recall when I have ever seen such a bull pucky statement.

You imply that first he went to her house and tied up her parents (so they could not influence her in a positive way) - then he captured her and put her out on the street where he could pick her up - then he held a gun to her head and forced her to lie to the official at the Playboy Club entrance.

Then he held her throat open and poured booze down it (since she would be breaking the law to do it herself - and yes the LAW applies to 15 year olds TOO).

And then she shagged him and he shagged her - constituting statutory rape since she was drunk/stoned stoopid and underage - while he was drunk/stoned and just plain stoopid.

A woman certainly DOES bear responsibility for blatantly ignoring several laws intended to protect her from EXACTLY what happened.

Your attemt to steal away from her her part in the stoopidness of that night makes her into and incompetent - not just a child.

Plenty of 15 year olds have been tried as ADULTS in this country (and some 13 and 14 year olds) so there is plenty of case law on the books showing that we (society) EXPECT a 15 year old to at minimum OBEY the LAW.

Good Lord. Simply astounding.