Bill Cosby and the justice system

[ondeadlin]

1. As I said earlier, make a specific criticism of something the media has done in relation to Bill Cosby and we can then address it. Until you do that, your general criticisms of the media boil down to casting vague aspersions on the reports of Cosby's behavior.

2. As the Rolling Stone rape story demonstrates, once a "smear" is out there, innocent people are capable of disproving it if it's not true. Interestingly, do you know who disproved the Rolling Stone rape story? More than anyone else, the Washington Post, by repeatedly asking questions about the parts of the story that did not add up.

3. The media doesn't conduct meaningful investigations? Start with Jacob Riis and Upton Sinclair and continue through to today and you'll find that suggestion disproved locally and nationally in every era of America history.

 

[DeniseM]

Folks - read the article I posted above and then come back and tells what you think. This is not about Gloria Allerd and one victim - it involves many victims over many, many years. If you don't like this media outlet, choose one that you do - they all have the same reports.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...lt_rape_drugs_feature_in_women_s_stories.html

 

[SueDonJ]

With Jerry Sandusky I "knew" without a shadow of a doubt that he was guilty, "knew" that he was protected by a ton of people around him including the most powerful of all of them, Joe Paterno. Those accusations in that setting/culture meshed perfectly with THE classic child molestation/coverup model, and no one will ever convince me that any of the charges brought against Sandusky or accusations made of Paterno were falsified or embellished. Even if Sandusky had managed to walk out of court a free man, I still would be opining that he was/is guilty as sin.

With Bill Cosby I'm nowhere near as sure but my opinion is that he's more likely a rapist than not. I "think" there must be something to the charges, "think" that there are far too many similarities in the accusations for there to NOT be fire with the smoke. It won't be a surprise if enough of the accusations are proven true to totally discredit him. And if that happens, I hope he rots in jail.

As for the media trying him, eh, so what? Their job is to report. Some outlets do it in a "just the facts, ma'am" style, some make it up as they go, some go for the shock factor, etc. If you don't like what one media outlet is doing then find another; there are plenty to suit every taste. If Bill Cosby is found guilty then it won't be the media's fault. But it's also not the media's fault that accusations have been made against him.

 

[DeniseM]

A wholly unscientific conclusion but I would say that 90% of rape allegations are false however when it comes to historical allegations then a high percentage of those are true.

So you are saying that if 10 different women, in 10 different cases, reported that they were raped, statistically, 9 of them would be lying.

But if 24, unrelated women, came to you and they all said the same guy raped them, would you believe that 21 of them lied? Obviously not.

 

[ace2000]

So you are saying that if 10 different women, in 10 different cases, reported that they were raped, statistically, 9 of them would be lying.

But if 24, unrelated women, came to you and they all said the same guy raped them, would you believe that 21 of them lied? Obviously not.

I think it's possible in this day and age when a rich and famous person is accused of rape that many false accusers would probably be tempted to join the circus. Especially when that wealthy individual has been extremely sexually active.

I do feel Cosby is guilty of at least some of these allegations though.

 

[Passepartout]

So you are saying that if 10 different women, in 10 different cases, reported that they were raped, statistically, 9 of them would be lying.

But if 24, unrelated women, came to you and they all said the same guy raped them, would you believe that 21 of them lied? Obviously not.

You might even say that there are very likely more- maybe a LOT more who haven't, and won't come forward. Women who've 'moved on' from the trauma, Women who've never told current spouses that they ever had such an 'encounter'. Maybe even women who themselves have never come to grips with awakening after drinking and/or being given 'date-rape' drugs.

If someone with police experience can say they have an unsubstantiated feeling that 90% are lying, someone else might say that for every woman who comes forward reporting a decades-old rape, 2-3-? more will choose NOT to point the finger at their perp.

Jim

 

[ondeadlin]

The idea that 9 out of 10 women who claim to be raped are lying is not supported by any evidence. Nobody knows what the number is. It's very difficult to prove such a statistic.

A discussion:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false

 

[DeniseM]

I think it's possible in this day and age when a rich and famous person is accused of rape that many false accusers would probably be tempted to join the circus. Especially when that wealthy individual has been extremely sexually active.

Have you read this article? http://www.bloombergview.com/article...orts-are-false

 

[ace2000]

Have you read this article? http://www.bloombergview.com/article...orts-are-false

I may have missed something but I don't see anything about a rich famous person being accused of rape. Obviously there may be more than a little incentive in those cases for some to step forward. And then when you add Gloria Allred to the mix...

 

[Beefnot]

The idea that 9 out of 10 women who claim to be raped are lying is not supported by any evidence. Nobody knows what the number is. It's very difficult to prove such a statistic.

A discussion:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false

A very excellent and balanced article. Two issues though:

1)

You cannot treat “percentage of reports that were found to be false by investigators” as “percentage of reports that were actually false.”

Instead, is it possible to accurately identify those reports demonstrated to be "not false"? This would mean that the remainder consists of false and unknown/unknowable.

2)

Men’s-rights activists would like to make it harder for innocent men to get caught in a web of lies, so they want rape accusations to be interrogated with deep suspicion. But treating rape victims as possible or likely liars may make it harder for them to go forward, leaving rapists free to stalk their next victim.

I have to agree with the position of the men's rights activists cited here. As despicable or insensitive as it may seem that women should be treated as "likely liars" (which is a little hyperbole in my opinion), the justice system must demand that there is no presumption of guilt by the mere presence of an accuser. There should be rigorous skepticism in trying to discover and prosecute truth, with both the accuser and accused. If that discourages true victims from coming forward, that is unfortunate, and we should continue to create a culture of encouragement of true victims to come forward.

 

[DeniseM]

I may have missed something but I don't see anything about a rich famous person being accused of rape. Obviously there may be more than a little incentive in those cases for some to step forward. And then when you add Gloria Allred to the mix...

Only one of the women is represented by Gloria Allred - are you going to discredit all the others because of that?

Have you actually reviewed the list of women who are accusing him? Some of them are attorneys, prominent actresses and models, a university administrator, etc. They are women who have more to lose, than to gain by coming forward.

 

[ace2000]

Only one of the women is represented by Gloria Allred - are you going to discredit all the others because of that?

Have you actually reviewed the list of women who are accusing him? Some of them are attorneys, prominent actresses and models, a university administrator, etc. They are women who have more to lose, than to gain by coming forward.

Chill a little and please read my posts. I believe Cosby is guilty.

We were talking about false accusations in general. And I was thinking that Allred had three of the ladies with her on the news conference I saw. Not sure about that though.

 

[DeniseM]

And I was thinking that Allred had three of the ladies with her on the news conference I saw. Not sure about that though.

I stand corrected - apparently 2 more came forward on Wednesday. I don't watch TV news, so I didn't see that.

 

[Pompey Family]

So you are saying that if 10 different women, in 10 different cases, reported that they were raped, statistically, 9 of them would be lying.

But if 24, unrelated women, came to you and they all said the same guy raped them, would you believe that 21 of them lied? Obviously not.

I'm not saying that at all. I gave my wholly unscientific and uncorroborated personal experience of rape allegations made to the police in the area I police.

It would be unprofessional and inappropriate to discuss individual cases however I stand by my estimation that 90% of the rape allegations reported to the police in the force I work are false. For a population of approximately 1.5 million I can say that the number of 'stranger rapes', have totalled in double figures over the last 20 years with 'domestic rapes' making up the majority of confirmed offences.

From my experience, yes 9 out of 10 rape allegations are false however if the number of allegations against a single accused increase then this strengthens the case and increases the likelihood that the allegations are true. Those allegations that turn out to be false usually have a similar theme, girl returns from night out where an infidelity occurred and feels guilty, girl upset that her ex now has a new girlfriend and girl seeking attention either as a result of a mental illness or crisis. Most false allegations are made by teenage girls and the majority do not seek police involvement but find that friends/relatives have notified the police on their behalf and before they know it they find themselves involved in a rape allegation that they struggle to find a way out of.

For what it's worth I suspect that Cosby is guilty of at least some of the allegations however I question the worth of pursuing a complaint that he squeezed someone's breast in 1973!

 

[geekette]

Absolutely, but some of the posters have implied or stated that Bill Cosby is being treated unfairly by the press. I'm not sure what they are trying to say? They don't think these atrocities should be made public? He should get a pass because of "who he is." We should end freedom of the press in the US?

Then there are the posts that state or imply that the women could be lying - really? All 24 of them? Including well-known public figures? How about the 12 that already filed suit against him? Did they lie too? That's pretty insulting to women, and it's exactly why sexual assault goes unreported.

+1

Women are shamed, told it was their fault - what were you wearing, why did you have alcohol, why were you in that place, etc., like it is always their fault because everyone knows that just being female is provocation.

Especially when the perpetrator is famous, women are far less likely to be believed. Already in this thread, there is the question of "gain" for the accusers.

Really? After all these years of no one believing you, there is A Gain for that? I don't think so. There may be a financial benefit, probably not, but anyone that has been sexually abused will never be made whole again, regardless of any monies that may come their way. Money won't fix a damn thing for these ladies.

Further, women that are drugged before being molested are probably terrible witnesses. Who would believe anything from them?

I think he did it, but I wasn't there. Too many similarities and his own jokes about Spanish Flies. Perfect crime: she can't remember because she was drugged and who would dare accuse Mr Clean?

I find the whole thing horrifying.

 

[geekette]

I think it's possible in this day and age when a rich and famous person is accused of rape that many false accusers would probably be tempted to join the circus. Especially when that wealthy individual has been extremely sexually active.
...

I completely disagree that a woman would jump on the bandwagon because let's not forget that for sex crimes against women, everything about the victim is 'on trial' - her sexual history, what she was wearing, why was she there, why did she accept a drink, etc etc. A woman that has had sex with more than one person will probably be portrayed as a slut, invited this somehow. This is the one crime where the victim has to answer for Her Part of it as if one's outfit "invites" assault.

Not likely many women will put themselves thru this if it isn't true. This is how we shame women out of coming forward. Works like a charm.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

I completely disagree that a woman would jump on the bandwagon because let's not forget that for sex crimes against women, everything about the victim is 'on trial' - her sexual history, what she was wearing, why was she there, why did she accept a drink, etc etc. A woman that has had sex with more than one person will probably be portrayed as a slut, invited this somehow. This is the one crime where the victim has to answer for Her Part of it as if one's outfit "invites" assault.

Not likely many women will put themselves thru this if it isn't true. This is how we shame women out of coming forward. Works like a charm.

Your information is out of date. The vast majority of jurisdictions don't allow information on a woman's sexual history . this has been the case for at least 20 years.

 

[ace2000]

I completely disagree that a woman would jump on the bandwagon because let's not forget that for sex crimes against women, everything about the victim is 'on trial' - her sexual history, what she was wearing, why was she there, why did she accept a drink, etc etc.

For millions of dollars? Ok, really? When Gloria Allred is involved they're not exactly going for small claims here.

 

[Beefnot]

I completely disagree that a woman would jump on the bandwagon because let's not forget that for sex crimes against women, everything about the victim is 'on trial' - her sexual history, what she was wearing, why was she there, why did she accept a drink, etc etc. A woman that has had sex with more than one person will probably be portrayed as a slut, invited this somehow. This is the one crime where the victim has to answer for Her Part of it as if one's outfit "invites" assault.

Not likely many women will put themselves thru this if it isn't true. This is how we shame women out of coming forward. Works like a charm.

I see both sides. Completely understand your sentiments, but those comments notwithstanding, I can also believe that some claims could be me-too claims, out of attempts at gaining or reclaiming celebrity, or even revisionist memory of a drunken night 30 years later. However, there is enough smoke that I would expect most reasonable people believe that in the Cosby case, there is a fire of some size, likely far more than smoldering.

When we interpolate this to the individual level, this talk of "shaming women out of coming forward" typically suggests that there should somehow be a presumption that the accuser must be telling the truth, and thus that there should be a strong bias against the accused. But in the underlying philosophy governing our system of justice, when faced with a Sophie's choice, we should rather err on the side of "shaming" a credible victim from coming forward than encouraging a false claim that convicts an innocent person.

 

[ace2000]

I see both sides. Completely understand your sentiments, but those comments notwithstanding, I can also believe that some claims could be me-too claims, out of attempts at gaining or reclaiming celebrity, or even revisionist memory of a drunken night 30 years later. However, there is enough smoke that I would expect most reasonable people believe that in the Cosby case, there is a fire of some size, likely far more than smoldering.

When we interpolate this to the individual level, this talk of "shaming women out of coming forward" typically suggests that there should somehow be a presumption that the accuser must be telling the truth, and thus that there should be a strong bias against the accused. But in the underlying philosophy governing our system of justice, when faced with a Sophie's choice, we should rather err on the side of "shaming" a credible victim from coming forward than encouraging a false claim that convicts an innocent person.

Wow, Beef I don't typically get much out of your posts, but this one is right on. My thoughts exactly.

p.s. only joking

 

[ampaholic]

A sobering look at intentionial under-reporting

More than 1 million rape cases have gone undocumented across the United States during the past two decades, according to research by a University of Kansas law professor. - See more at: http://news.ku.edu/2014/03/03/law-p...cial-us-crime-statistics#sthash.KUF3wTPf.dpuf

“Society has an obligation to stop rape and prosecute rapists. The current practices are incredibly far from that basic precept. What is worse is that the extent of rape in America has been covered up— rape victims have been denied basic dignity, so that some police could manipulate statistics to simply achieve artificially designated crime benchmarks,” Yung wrote.

 

[geekette]

Your information is out of date. The vast majority of jurisdictions don't allow information on a woman's sexual history . this has been the case for at least 20 years.

Right, defense never tries to paint woman as at fault these days. Sure.

 

[geekette]

For millions of dollars? Ok, really? When Gloria Allred is involved they're not exactly going for small claims here.

I've never heard of her before this all happened so she doesn't mean crap to me and I would bet most people in the country also had never heard of her. Rape is a crime punishable by prison, not a fine, so exactly why would someone assume "oooo, I can get money from Bill!" and that lies would be believed?

 

[Beefnot]

I've never heard of her before this all happened so she doesn't mean crap to me and I would bet most people in the country also had never heard of her. Rape is a crime punishable by prison, not a fine, so exactly why would someone assume "oooo, I can get money from Bill!" and that lies would be believed?

Wow, I think you may be in the minority. Gloria Allred is the most widely known female attorney, and one of the most widely known attorneys irrespective of gender, in the United States. This type of case is her bread and butter.

 

[Beefnot]

Wow, Beef I don't typically get much out of your posts, but this one is right on. My thoughts exactly.

p.s. only joking

Every now and then I will remove enough sarcasm and condescension from my posts to make my analytical reasoning more accessible to the more, shall we say, pedestrian, folks like yourself