College woes

[pjrose]

. . .
Personally, without the ROTC scholarship that I earned an eon ago, I'm not all that certain I would have attended college and met my eventual Bride. Funny how those things work out...the oddest decision will have the most lasting impact on your life.

And if I hadn't wanted to skip swim practice so my hair wouldn't be wet for cheerleading tryouts, I wouldn't have talked to a particular college rep at my HS that day (the only legit excuse for skipping practice), and hence wouldn't have picked up the application and applied and then gone to the college where I met my DH second week of freshman year

(And no, I didn't make cheerleading, even with my dry hair .)

 

[pjrose]

I've been to three types of colleges, and taught at them all as well: small private liberal arts, state university, and ivy league.

Faculty at private liberal arts and ivy league probably have a lower course load than state, and class size will likely be smaller. Hence faculty may spend more time with students (very likely at liberal arts) and/or research (very likely at ivy league).

At a state school faculty likely have a higher course load and larger classes, so less time with students. Similarly, students likely take more classes per semester.

You can find wonderful and awful faculty in all three types. But the faculty course load (usually 3 or 4 classes/semester, but could be lower if the particular prof has a reduction for committee work or research) and the class size are important to look at. So is the "feel" of the faculty/student relationship - is it fairly common for faculty to involve students in their research? To have students over to their house for an occasional pizza or taco night? You'll find that at a small liberal arts college. Or are a lot of the undergraduate courses taught by grad students? You'll find that at ivy league and large state universities. How many classes (NOT credits) do the students take per term? Four is great - they can devote more time to those four (not that they necessarily will.....but for a top-notch student, this can make a difference).

I wouldn't replace my small private liberal arts college undergrad AND teaching experience with anything. Faculty-student relationships were great for me, DH, and DS who now goes to that type of school.

As a grad student I started at a state university (not a huge one). It was good, and the faculty and grad students generally worked well together. then I went to an ivy league school to finish up my grad work. It honestly was not as good a school for me or the undergrads as the other two. Many faculty were too isolated with their research, and many courses were taught by grad students. However, I have no doubt that that name on my fancy diploma, as opposed to the small state university, made a big difference in landing me several positions.

 

[csalter2]

I agree...

I've been to three types of colleges, and taught at them all as well: small private liberal arts, state university, and ivy league.


Faculty at private liberal arts and ivy league probably have a lower course load than state, and class size will likely be smaller. Hence faculty may spend more time with students (very likely at liberal arts) and/or research (very likely at ivy league).

At a state school faculty likely have a higher course load and larger classes, so less time with students. Similarly, students likely take more classes per semester.

You can find wonderful and awful faculty in all three types. But the faculty course load (usually 3 or 4 classes/semester, but could be lower if the particular prof has a reduction for committee work or research) and the class size are important to look at. So is the "feel" of the faculty/student relationship - is it fairly common for faculty to involve students in their research? To have students over to their house for an occasional pizza or taco night? You'll find that at a small liberal arts college. Or are a lot of the undergraduate courses taught by grad students? You'll find that at ivy league and large state universities. How many classes (NOT credits) do the students take per term? Four is great - they can devote more time to those four (not that they necessarily will.....but for a top-notch student, this can make a difference).

I wouldn't replace my small private liberal arts college undergrad AND teaching experience with anything. Faculty-student relationships were great for me, DH, and DS who now goes to that type of school.

As a grad student I started at a state university (not a huge one). It was good, and the faculty and grad students generally worked well together. then I went to an ivy league school to finish up my grad work. It honestly was not as good a school for me or the undergrads as the other two. Many faculty were too isolated with their research, and many courses were taught by grad students. However, I have no doubt that that name on my fancy diploma, as opposed to the small state university, made a big difference in landing me several positions.

PJROSE,
I went to a small private liberal arts college right in your backyard (Dickinson College) and found that to be a great experience for the reason you gave. The small class sizes and the student faculty relationships. I went there almost 30 years after I graduated and professors still remembered me. My wife was thoroughly impressed that they not only knew me but knew many specifics about me. The education there has proved to be instrumental in my decision making and my ability to think utilizing the information/data available to me. I would not trade that experience for anything.

 

[sheila]

A lot of my daughter's friends are second guessing her choice for going to a state school. She tries to explain to them that she wants to graduate with no debt. (She has a college fund but if she goes to a private college she will have major debt) and then go to grad school. I have talked to many college graduates and almost all of them who went to private colleges and have debt say if they had to do it all over again they wuold have gone to a state school. This is a great articule on a state school and a private school

http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/cnn/

 

[bogey21]

Bogey21:
Suppose it was Harvard or MIT, would you feel the same way?

I guess if my kid was a super intellect and had their head on straight, a school like Harvard or MIT would be a good choice. In most other cases I don't think (within reason) where the degree comes from really matters.

George

 

[Big Matt]

I was a top student in high school, went to a fairly prominent college (William and Mary) and went on to get an MBA.

In high school I learned how to take direction and work hard. I got good grades. I had no concept of college nor did I take my search very seriously. I was a baseball player and selected my college based on that versus academics. It was also in my home town so I knew the campus well.

When I went to college I grew from a teenager into an adult. This was the most important thing I got out of college. I learned how to manage myself and take responsibility for managing my time and money.

I worked all the way through grad school and learned the value of education and how valuable it is to success in life.

The bottom line with education is that it is an evolution that only the student can own. My parents never told me what to do, but steered me in the right directions so that I could make a thoughtful choice. My son is a senior in high school now. He's got his head all over the place. I'm going to make sure that he picks a school where he has a good opportunity to be successful. The good news is that his list includes those types of schools.

 

[swift]

Also want to add a note about financial aide. Unless you are getting a full ride do not assume that the aide you are given in the Freshman year will be the same aide you will get the entire time. Many of my daughters friends had a tough time this year as tuition prices went up and the teaser offer to get them to attend the college was not as attractive.

 

[wauhob3]

You do have to be careful with scholarships and academic based grants that they are awarded all four years which is all my daughter was offered. Need based grants will change if your income changes. The particulars of the award should be there and the academic scholarships and grants usually have maintaining a certain GPA tied to them. If they fail to maintain the GPA tied to the award then they will lose it after the first year. I told my daughter she will be transferring to another college should that happen. The first semester she did well so I suspect that will continue.

As far as whether a name school matters or not in getting a good job largely depends in what your major is. Some degrees it doesn't matter. If you want to go into business you will have a much better chance at getting an excellent position if you go to a name school that is known for business. It doesn't have to be Ivy League though. Notre Dame is the top business school in the USA. It also matters the contacts these schools provide. They generally have active alumni support that provides you contacts on top of the ones you make with peers in school.

Faculty contact is also dramatically different as PJRose sited. My daughter already knows several professors well because classes are small enough to interact. They make themselves more available as well. Most have their terminal degrees. At her school no classes are taught by TA's.

A good thing to do is to apply everywhere. Visit the schools, audit some classes and if possible do an overnight experience for those with the best offers.

 

[Talent312]

When I went to college I grew from a teenager into an adult...

When I went to college, I had straight-A's my first term.
Then I discovered beer. College was much more fun after that.

 

[Big Matt]

I discovered beer on my first day in college. Our orientation aids took my freshman hall (all boys) out to the local pub and bought us pitchers. I met a pretty hot girl that night and never looked back. College was by far my favorite four year period in my life.

When I went to college, I had straight-A's my first term.
Then I discovered beer. College was much more fun after that.

 

[MuranoJo]

Agree completely.

I'm always amazed at how much emphasis parents put on college choice. A motivated student will do fantastic at State U. and an unmotivated student will do poorly at Ivy U. It's not about the institution, it's about the student's desire to succeed.

I got my degree from a state university whose electrical engineering program had only recently gained accreditation. Hasn't seemed to hurt me any. I work with grads from Stanford, Ga Tech, MIT, RPI, etc. We're peers. They have nothing on me, or me on them. None of us would even know or care where the others went to school if it didn't come up in non-work related conversations (usually about college football or basketball). Our boss? A Chico State grad.

Be happy that your kids want to go to college. Support their choices.

Ditto. I work with a diverse group of Ivy Leaguers and State U grads, MBAs and bachelors. In a long career, I've not once heard anyone comparing notes in the hall about who went to what school. Once you're thrown into the pot, it's each man/woman for him/herself. And I've seen State grads hold their own very well.

Real work experience supplementing the degree can tip the scale in the applicant's favor.

 

[wauhob3]

Ditto. I work with a diverse group of Ivy Leaguers and State U grads, MBAs and bachelors. In a long career, I've not once heard anyone comparing notes in the hall about who went to what school. Once you're thrown into the pot, it's each man/woman for him/herself. And I've seen State grads hold their own very well.

Real work experience supplementing the degree can tip the scale in the applicant's favor.

I totally agree that after the first years of work is your work experience that is more important. Its just that in some fields depending on where you graduate from may mean a big difference in getting that first work experience.Some state schools would even be better in some fields. For example, a Purdue engineer may be more desireable then one from Harvard. Conversely a Harvard law degree would probably open doors a state school law degree. If you want to be a nurse it probably doesn't matter greatly where you go to school.

 

[kewanee]

We took our kids for college visits before even discussing where to apply. We combined them with vacation in the spring of their junior year and summer; and day trip for nearby schools. We must have visited at least some 20 colleges; different sizes (large univ, medium size, small liberal arts), locations (city vs suburb); reach/match/safety. Some of the schools visited was based on when they think they like to go and other are just random for comparison.

Davhu1 or anyone else - can you elaborate on the college visits? What do you look for? Do you drive around the campus and then walk around? or take organized tours? Thank you.

 

[geekette]

I tend to agree with this. Because of transfers while working and tours in both the Army and Air Force I ended up attending 8 colleges before graduating. Some of the schools were top tier and some nowhere near top tier. I found both good and bad professors in all of the schools I attended. I feel that where you graduate doesn't matter as much as having a degree in the field in which you intend to work.

George

And I'd say that having a degree not match what you actually do for a living isn't that important either.

I never knew what I wanted to do, so got a good degree that could suit various purposes - Indiana University Bloomington, school of business, specialized marketing/advertising. [no, IU was not high school clique all over again, but, I didn't go seekign that, I was there for education, not social]

have not worked a day in marketing nor advertising.

In my recent job search, it was a point of amusement. how does someone with a degree like that end up doing this for a living?? my experience was really what led them to call me, not the degree, nor even that I have a degree at all. No one here gives a crap where my degree came from, nor what it's in. They care that I can do the job and no alma matter credential can assure them of that, only I can. Granted, I am not fresh out of school. Fresh out of school, most any degree can open a door for you. After that, it's up to the person.

A degree proves certain things but there is no guarantee of career success based on the school name printed. I think it is far more important to be in an environment conducive to that student's sensibilities.

I went where I could afford, came out with credit and loan debt, paid it off, and moved on with life.

 

[bogey21]

For someone just starting out in the job market having a degree helps. Some companies have a degree requirement. Without one the newbie can't get an interview. I agree that once someone has a track record of performance that having a degree is most often not a consideration.

George

 

[esk444]

You do have to be careful with scholarships and academic based grants that they are awarded all four years which is all my daughter was offered. Need based grants will change if your income changes. The particulars of the award should be there and the academic scholarships and grants usually have maintaining a certain GPA tied to them. If they fail to maintain the GPA tied to the award then they will lose it after the first year. I told my daughter she will be transferring to another college should that happen. The first semester she did well so I suspect that will continue.

As far as whether a name school matters or not in getting a good job largely depends in what your major is. Some degrees it doesn't matter. If you want to go into business you will have a much better chance at getting an excellent position if you go to a name school that is known for business. It doesn't have to be Ivy League though. Notre Dame is the top business school in the USA. It also matters the contacts these schools provide. They generally have active alumni support that provides you contacts on top of the ones you make with peers in school.

Faculty contact is also dramatically different as PJRose sited. My daughter already knows several professors well because classes are small enough to interact. They make themselves more available as well. Most have their terminal degrees. At her school no classes are taught by TA's.

A good thing to do is to apply everywhere. Visit the schools, audit some classes and if possible do an overnight experience for those with the best offers.

Off topic, but no one outside of ND alums or those from South Bend believes that. I have a hard time believing most ND alums even believe that.

 

[wauhob3]

Off topic, but no one outside of ND alums or those from South Bend believes that. I have a hard time believing most ND alums even believe that.

It is what some in the business community believes and that is what matters when it comes to getting a top business job. I realize these rankings can be subjective but Bloomberg is pretty reputable. Even if its not at the top of everyones list it is an excellent school bound to open more doors then many colleges.

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/

 

[Zac495]

Davhu1 or anyone else - can you elaborate on the college visits? What do you look for? Do you drive around the campus and then walk around? or take organized tours? Thank you.

This past summer, DS and I went to many schools. We made online reservations for tours. We also ate in the area.
My son still loves Pitt, but is beginning to think about Ivy Leagues based on his SAT scores. This is SO hard! Well, i guess one could have worse problems.

 

[MuranoJo]

I totally agree that after the first years of work is your work experience that is more important. Its just that in some fields depending on where you graduate from may mean a big difference in getting that first work experience.Some state schools would even be better in some fields. For example, a Purdue engineer may be more desireable then one from Harvard. Conversely a Harvard law degree would probably open doors a state school law degree. If you want to be a nurse it probably doesn't matter greatly where you go to school.

Actually, what I was referring to was work experience before or while going to school (can positively influence a future employer vs. someone who has no work experience).

 

[pjrose]

Actually, what I was referring to was work experience before or while going to school (can positively influence a future employer vs. someone who has no work experience).

And volunteer experience as well!