Maui News article on County of Maui's appeal on WKORV WKORVN tax ruling

[geist1223]

So if Maui County increases the hotel taxes = to timeshare taxes everybody will be happy.

 

[TravelTime]

So if Maui County increases the hotel taxes = to timeshare taxes everybody will be happy.

You would not have the problem of inequality but you would still have people complaining due to people protesting taxation in general, right?

However, I think taxes are always inequitable. Someone will always find a way to spin them as being unfair to a certain group or that someone else is not paying their fair share.

 

[WahooWah]

As an owner of Maui weeks, I'd be willing to forgo any payment due to me if this lawsuit is successful, as long as the tax rates are fixed going forward. Maybe spare Maui county some financial pain.

This is exactly how it will play out if the lawsuit is successful. Owners will not likely see that money returned directly, but the HOA will likely use it to pay for legal fees for the past ten years and anything left over will subsidize future costs. Also, like you said tax rates moving forward would be fixed at a lower rate. This would be a fantastic result for owners.

I might be wrong on this, but I think some of the benefit of this legal action has already been provided back to owners in the form of relatively flat MF over the past four years.

 

[DannyTS]

So if Maui County increases the hotel taxes = to timeshare taxes everybody will be happy.

how about finding the mid-point between the current 2 rates and taxing both TS and hotels at that same level?

 

[TravelTime]

how about finding the mid-point between the current 2 rates and taxing both TS and hotels at that same level?

No way! That is so un-American. We cannot find a middle way. No compromising.

 

[geist1223]

No way! That is so un-American. We cannot find a middle way. No compromising.

So the Hotel Taxes go up.

 

[DannyTS]

So the Hotel Taxes go up.

or maybe the government can cut some expenses for once

 

[TravelTime]

I think people missed my attempt at humor. I guess if you need to explain your own humor, it was not funny. (Last attempt at humor)

 

[PamMo]

It's not like we are freeloaders in Maui. Timeshare owners are charged the highest annual property tax rates, a nightly Transient Accommodations Tax every night we stay in our own deeded property, income tax when we rent one of our weeks, and get taxed on the sale of our properties. We rent cars, buy groceries, go out to eat, buy concert tickets, book tours, buy beach gear, souvenirs, local arts and crafts, etc. We are fully committed to return to Maui year after year. We volunteer for beach clean ups and donate to local charities. But council members say, "Timeshare owners are not the kind of people we want in Maui."

I just wish they would stop scapegoating timeshare owners for their social, financial, and environmental problems. WKORV's lawsuit was a gutsy move, and even though we won this battle, I don't see a happy reconciliation any time in the near future.

 

[taterhed]

Exactly. thanks @PamMo

This is a money grab. I understand money grabs, but this one was egregious and undocumented.
Here you go Maui: why don't you establish a 20% tax rate on all checks at 'luxury' restaurants.
Won't bother the voters....will raise income.

 

[geist1223]

or maybe the government can cut some expenses for once

I like your sense of humor.

 

[Maui_ed]

I haven't done any research to substantiate this thought, but it does seem to me that timeshare owners are more likely than hotel visitors to continue to visit the islands during economic downturns, therefore continuing to support car rentals, local grocers, and the local tourist businesses like whale watching, zip lining etc. Because timeshare owners have already "committed" to a week, or more, it seems more likely that they will continue to show up. Certainly won't hold true for all owners, and those who trade into Hawaii might opt for someplace less expensive to travel to, but, still seems like occupancy at the timeshares will be higher than occupancy at the hotels, in general, during slumps in the economy.

 

[TravelTime]

Maybe the solution is to stop using the term “timeshare owners” and reposition ourselves as “vacation club members” to get more respect in Maui (and elsewhere). Then perhaps we will at least be treated as equals to the hotels and resorts. No one seems to like timeshares but they love vacation clubs.

 

[PamMo]

Maui_ed, timeshare occupancy rates are often higher than hotel occupancy rates - during bad AND good economic cycles. From the latest HTA timeshare report - https://www.hawaiitourismauthority....y-grew-to-915-percent-in-second-quarter-2018/

During the second quarter, Maui County timeshare properties led Hawaii’s four island counties in occupancy, averaging 94.0 percent (+2.0 percentage points) compared to the same period a year ago. Oahu timeshare properties averaged occupancy of 92.6 percent (+1.8 percentage points), with Kauai timeshare properties at 91.5 percent (+0.7 percentage points), and island of Hawaii timeshare properties at 84.0 percent (+1.0 percentage points) in the second quarter.

By comparison, Oahu hotels led the four island counties in occupancy during the second quarter, averaging 84.5 percent (+1.7 percentage points). Kauai hotels averaged occupancy of 77.5 percent (+2.6 percentage points), with Maui County hotels at 77.4 percent (+0.1 percentage points), and island of Hawaii hotels at 71.8 percent (+0.4 percentage points).
​

But in sheer numbers and power, hotels rule over the islands. Perhaps that's why timeshare owners are minimalized. https://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/media/2671/hawaii-hotel-performance-09-2018.pdf

 

[dss]

Thanks for sharing. Is this the appeal of the special assessment we received for like 2007 (??) retroactive taxes or is that a distinct legal matter?

From the article, it sounds like we are fighting the overall classification for the past ten years as unfair. I thought there was a case that regardless of the fairness of rate, they came after us like 8 years after the fact stating there was a clerical error and should have been charging the higher rate all along, which we argued was illegal and successfully (so far) fought in court?

 

[easyrider]

Maui should be able to tax everything not used for the locals, imo, including all rentals and rental income.

What would it take to make tourists change their minds about going to Hawaii ? Tourism is the biggest problem regarding the homelessness and the over used infrastructure in Hawaii.

Bill

 

[GregT]

I haven't done any research to substantiate this thought, but it does seem to me that timeshare owners are more likely than hotel visitors to continue to visit the islands during economic downturns, therefore continuing to support car rentals, local grocers, and the local tourist businesses like whale watching, zip lining etc. Because timeshare owners have already "committed" to a week, or more, it seems more likely that they will continue to show up. Certainly won't hold true for all owners, and those who trade into Hawaii might opt for someplace less expensive to travel to, but, still seems like occupancy at the timeshares will be higher than occupancy at the hotels, in general, during slumps in the economy.

I know I still visited Maui in 2009, 2010 and 2011 when the world was falling apart. I still shopped, still did excursions, still ate out in restaurants all during that period. I watched the shops at the Kalama Marketplace dwindle in size due to the downturn and I told my children that this was a visible impact of the economy. We made it a point to go every year and buy some items there (and still do). We are happy to see the kiosks returning — I definitely agree with the comment that timeshare owners are more likely to go (and more likely to not cancel) a trip to the islands.

Best,

Greg

 

[WahooWah]

Thanks for sharing. Is this the appeal of the special assessment we received for like 2007 (??) retroactive taxes or is that a distinct legal matter?

From the article, it sounds like we are fighting the overall classification for the past ten years as unfair. I thought there was a case that regardless of the fairness of rate, they came after us like 8 years after the fact stating there was a clerical error and should have been charging the higher rate all along, which we argued was illegal and successfully (so far) fought in court?

It is a separate but related case, I think. I think the Westin has won both cases and the County is appealing both.

Here is the ruling on the retroactive tax case: https://mauinow.com/2017/08/25/maui-county-ordered-to-refund-10-7m-to-timeshare-taxpayers/

 

[CalGalTraveler]

If we lose the appeals will we be assessed again to pay legal fees for the county if they prevail?

 

[BocaBoy]

I might be wrong on this, but I think some of the benefit of this legal action has already been provided back to owners in the form of relatively flat MF over the past four years.

The Maui Ocean Club maintenance fees have been anything but "relatively flat" over the past four years.

 

[BocaBoy]

I am not as forgiving as some others. If it is ultimately decided that I paid higher property taxes for the past 10 years than were lawfully assessed, I want my money back. Letting the county keep it and just fix it going forward is not acceptable. It is like penalizing a thief by preventing him from stealing in the future, but letting him keep the money he has already stolen.

 

[rickandcindy23]

At Hono Koa, we pay property taxes but are not charged the TAT.

 

[jpd88]

IMHO. I am new to this topic but the Maui arguments in this article about the tax assessment seem really weak to me.

Maui County may be out $34 million and in perilous financial shape if they lose the appeal. However isn't that $34 million money that they already collected from the timeshares?

• So they overcharged with an unfair tax assessment with poor legal justification and precedent. (shouldn't they have sought a legal opinion before pursuing this? Wouldn't someone at the County have considered that the timeshare companies would respond? i.e. they wrongfully believed that because the owners are not local and are small that there would be no battle and this would be an easy source of revenue because they don't vote.)
• They collected and spent the $34 million incremental revenue rather than keeping it in reserve or managing their budget accordingly. (if they had hired counsel, the counsel may have warned them that they were on shaky legal ground.)
• Now they blame the TS industry for the suit and having to refund money they shouldn't have collected in the first place?

Do I have this right? Seems like inept Maui County management to me.

[Broad political statement deleted - please stick to the timeshare TAX issue, on Maui.]

 

[lockewong]

No way! That is so un-American. We cannot find a middle way. No compromising.

I appreciate the humor. I agree. I love Maui and would want a fair assessment rather than be given arbitrary distinctions for new taxes just to justify those taxes. Although I eat in, I enjoy going out and support restaurants and whale watching tours and trips to Lanai every year. Tourists and vacationers travel to Maui to enjoy what we do not have where we live.

 

[DavidnRobin]

You've got that right. Inept fiscal management is endemic to state/county management administered by certain political organizations (e.g. Illinois, California, Massachusetts, New Jersey, etc). But Maui is a little slice of paradise....except for the traffic.

@DeniseM
So this is not considered political, but my post was?
‘certain optical organizations’
In IL, CA, MA, NJ...

Gee. not political at all...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk