Continuing Care Retirement Communities

[Luanne]

So today Cliff dragged me to a sit down at the high end "old folks home" on the Palos Verdes Peninsula. I am against it because I'd been considering a CCRC move "an adventure", and moving 20 minutes away is no adventure. Prices are very similar to what we found in Pleasanton and San Juan Capistrano, except that there is no charming campus with water scaping and community garden patches, so to my mind we'd be paying the same for less. I think it would only be a consideration for me as a single, after Cliff was cared for at home (assuming there's any money left!). Next month we have an appointment to visit a CCRC in Santa Fe. It is also at 100% occupancy with a wait list like the one today.

Which CRCC in Santa Fe are you going to visit?

 

[VacationForever]

True, but there are offsets such as 35% being deductible on my FIT. Another is that I don't have to pay for Long Term Care Insurance as the CCRC is contractually obligated to take care of me if/when I get old and can't take care of myself.

I haven't looked at Long Term Care Policies in many years but my recollection is that they can (1) raise your premiums, (2) require a waiting period before they pay, (3) only cover you for a set number of years, and (4) charge a lot for inflation protection. In addition the amount of one's coverage may be insufficient depending on how many years ago you purchased your policy. Because of my contract with my CCRC I don't have to worry about any of this.

George

If you need higher level of care, does the amount go up from $2700, adjusted for inflation?

 

[clifffaith]

Which CRCC in Santa Fe are you going to visit?

El Castillo, which for those who can walk (sadly not me at this stage with my back issues) appears to be an easy distance from the main plaza when looking at the map. We have been told it is the only CCRC in that part of New Mexico, and so far nothing else has jumped out at us.

 

[Luanne]

El Castillo, which for those who can walk (sadly not me at this stage with my back issues) appears to be an easy distance from the main plaza when looking at the map. We have been told it is the only CCRC in that part of New Mexico, and so far nothing else has jumped out at us.

We have several friends living at El Castillo. They seem happy there. It is very close to the Plaza. They are supposedly building an additional facility in town. It won't be as close to the Plaza as the one that is already there.

I thought there were other facilities in Santa Fe, but I could be wrong. Maybe they are retirement communities but don't have the full care that El Castillo has.

Also remember Santa Fe is at 7000 feet and can cause problems for some people. We also get snow here. We love it and have been very happy retiring to this location, but if you have any mobility issues it could be challenging.

 

[bogey21]

If you need higher level of care, does the amount go up from $2700, adjusted for inflation?

Yes, but the amount is very small. It is not enough to concern me.

George

 

[WinniWoman]

True, but there are offsets such as 35% being deductible on my FIT. Another is that I don't have to pay for Long Term Care Insurance as the CCRC is contractually obligated to take care of me if/when I get old and can't take care of myself.

I haven't looked at Long Term Care Policies in many years but my recollection is that they can (1) raise your premiums, (2) require a waiting period before they pay, (3) only cover you for a set number of years, and (4) charge a lot for inflation protection. In addition the amount of one's coverage may be insufficient depending on how many years ago you purchased your policy. Because of my contract with my CCRC I don't have to worry about any of this.

George

We do not have nor are we getting the Long Term Care Insurance either.

In so far as tax deductions, I am not sure they are really worth laying out the money just to get less back than you are paying.

But the peace of mind for you if probably worth it, so as long as you can afford it, what the heck.

For me, I think sleeping pills might be cheaper when the time comes.

 

[clifffaith]

We have several friends living at El Castillo. They seem happy there. It is very close to the Plaza. They are supposedly building an additional facility in town. It won't be as close to the Plaza as the one that is already there.

I thought there were other facilities in Santa Fe, but I could be wrong. Maybe they are retirement communities but don't have the full care that El Castillo has.

Also remember Santa Fe is at 7000 feet and can cause problems for some people. We also get snow here. We love it and have been very happy retiring to this location, but if you have any mobility issues it could be challenging.

If Santa Fe ends up in serious contention I want to spend a couple winter weeks at our Diamond timeshare. We've been told snow is usually light, but did meet a couple at a pre-opera dinner one summer who said the town was snowed in at Christmas the previous year. You'll laugh -- obviously if if is snowing it is pretty darn cold, but in my mind the only issue was "if it's snowing, I'll stay inside". But what about the days it is snowless and 40 degrees outside? I've lived in Los Angeles since I was 5 years old, so snow and cold is just not something we have to deal with. We've been visiting Santa Fe annually since 2009 and I do have an issue each time with the altitude. Wake up a night feeling like I need to sit up and breathe to make sure I'm still getting enough oxygen. I expect to acclimate to altitude much easier that cold weather. What is drawing us to investigate a CCRC here is, as I suspected, CA real estate prices are what drives the entrance fee into the stratosphere. They are less by roughly half (without having actually crunched numbers, just glancing at a price sheet that shows the most expensive unit in SF as about the price of a studio in CA). Also my furnishings already fit Santa Fe -- instead of being the weird CCRC resident with skulls on her wall in California, my Dia de los Muertos/Mexican/folk arty decor will be right at home in New Mexico.

 

[Luanne]

If Santa Fe ends up in serious contention I want to spend a couple winter weeks at our Diamond timeshare. We've been told snow is usually light, but did meet a couple at a pre-opera dinner one summer who said the town was snowed in at Christmas the previous year. You'll laugh -- obviously if if is snowing it is pretty darn cold, but in my mind the only issue was "if it's snowing, I'll stay inside". But what about the days it is snowless and 40 degrees outside? I've lived in Los Angeles since I was 5 years old, so snow and cold is just not something we have to deal with. We've been visiting Santa Fe annually since 2009 and I do have an issue each time with the altitude. Wake up a night feeling like I need to sit up and breathe to make sure I'm still getting enough oxygen. I expect to acclimate to altitude much easier that cold weather. What is drawing us to investigate a CCRC here is, as I suspected, CA real estate prices are what drives the entrance fee into the stratosphere. They are less by roughly half (without having actually crunched numbers, just glancing at a price sheet that shows the most expensive unit in SF as about the price of a studio in CA). Also my furnishings already fit Santa Fe -- instead of being the weird CCRC resident with skulls on her wall in California, my Dia de los Muertos/Mexican/folk arty decor will be right at home in New Mexico.

I was born and raised outside Los Angeles and lived in the San Francisco Bay area until we moved to Santa Fe. I had never "done" winter before moving here. I've found there are very few days I need to stay inside all day. At this point (we've been here almost five years) I still love the winter. I find if I bundle up I can be outside when it's 40 degrees. I haven't experienced any problems with the altitude although I do get a bit winded sometimes when I hike.

I did trade in my Prius (which I loved) for an AWD Honda CR-V. We live in a development with dirt roads and I found myself stuck a couple of times just getting up the small hill to our driveway. Since I didn't want to be dependent on my husband for getting around I decided to get an AWD.

 

[Inhislove]

In my research for our in-laws, there are multiple kinds of continuing care communities and also plenty of 55+ retirement communities. Here is an example in my college town of DeLand, FL. You can do a buy in that is permanent after 4 years, a 75% refund option, and a C plan (unsure of what this means). It entitles residents to 30 days of care per year at the nursing/rehab center and a discount if assisted living or full-time nursing care is required.

http://www.alliancecommunity.org/duplexes.html

 

[Conan]

Does anybody here have experience with any of the locations in the Kendal group?
http://www.kendal.org/

Our daughters went to Oberlin College which is how we heard of it. Oberlin, Ohio has bitter winters, though, which is off-putting.

 

[bogey21]

As one who lives in a CCRC my advice is to visit as many CCRCs as you can before you choose one. Take your time. You are making a decision that will impact the rest of your life! Before I chose Trinity Terrace (Fort Worth, TX) I visited 6 or 7 other CCRCs in almost as many states. This enabled me to compare initial costs, monthly fees, physical facilities, different locations, food service, activities, etc. Being able to read the contracts and talk to residents at each was invaluable. Trust me. I found that the differences between CCRCs were mind boggling.

George

 

[clifffaith]

How about the San Diego area? I got the idea before you wanted to remain near LA. But if you're considering adventure, I'm familiar with several of these, and the Carlsbad one is just a block from the train station. Casa de Manana is in La Jolla right in front of the beach. Etc.

http://frontporch.net/our-communities/retirement/

Some of them are the kind with a buy-in fee, and some are just monthly.

I think we have a winner! Today we took the 1 3/4 hour drive to visit the Carlsbad location. We were a bit early so we took a walk around the outside of the main building. I was sold when we got to the ocean at the end of the block. No fancy landscaped grounds needed when the ocean is right there. Carlsbad By the Sea occupies three buildings, the main building in front, another across a small side street, and the third is right on the water housing six units that are out of our price range. But that building has the roof top ocean view patio with a barbecue and fire pit and plenty of lounge chairs. Best of all there is sand access via elevator -- I'd already groaned at the public stairs, great going down but I knew I'd be huffing and puffing coming back up. And the facility is right in the heart of Carlsbad Village - walk out the door to restaurants and little shops. The train to San Diego is a block and a half away. Seem to have lots of activities for the residents -- today they were getting ready for a birthday party for several residents who have all turned 100 in the last couple of months -- we met one gentleman who didn't look a day over 80!

The buy in for 2bed/2bath or 1bed/den/2bath starts at $350K, about half the price of Reata Glen. I feel like the money we aren't using for the buy in can then continue to grow in our investment accounts. Monthly payment for two is $5670. Two spaces in underground parking are free, as are storage areas for holiday decorations, etc. Assisted living is paid separately when/if needed and is administered in your home at whatever level you need, and there is a skilled nursing wing. They don't currently have memory care.

We are ready to provide them with a $1000 check (refundable) to get on the waiting list. We were told approx. a three year wait, but the occupant of one of the furnished units who kindly invited us in said she only waited six months earlier this year. I think it will take me two years to downsize and shut our business down (although yesterday we were both so whipped after a morning drapery installation we napped from 3-6 so I don't know if we'll last two more years!). We will still go to our appointment at El Castillo in Santa Fe next month, but I'm so glad I have somewhere local I like because now I don't have to worry about abandoning my parents!

 

[Laurie]

Does anybody here have experience with any of the locations in the Kendal group?
http://www.kendal.org/

Our daughters went to Oberlin College which is how we heard of it. Oberlin, Ohio has bitter winters, though, which is off-putting.

Interesting link, thanks. There's one right near DC. I'd want proximity to a cultural center personally, and it's warmer than those NE locations.

 

[amycurl]

My uncle has served on the board of the Kendal group, and my high school had a strong service relationship with the one in Kennett Square, PA. Very well-run, ethical, nonprofit corporation with great facilities.

And hi Laurie!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Laurie]

My uncle has served on the board of the Kendal group, and my high school had a strong service relationship with the one in Kennett Square, PA. Very well-run, ethical, nonprofit corporation with great facilities.

And hi Laurie!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi back to you! Maybe we'll run into each other again one of these days!

And good to know that about Kendal - thanks! (I've just forwarded that link to a few friends.)

 

[cp73]

The Pleasanton development has a sister community in San Juan Capistrano which is much closer to our Los Angeles home. When we get home from Napa we'll look into that community, which I believe is still in the early construction mode.

Ive enjoyed reading this post and admire all you considering doing this.
Are you referring to Reata Glen (spelling) in Rancho Mission Viejo/San Juan? Its under construction and in a nice location. I stopped in and met with them for my Dad about six months ago. Its on Ortega Highway about 3 miles from the 5 Freeway. Looks like it will be a great spot.

The last six months have been a big challenge for my sister and I with our Dad. He is 91 and we are moving him from an Assisted living in Norwalk to a newer place in Tustin which is a lot nicer. This will be a lot closer for my sister and I to visit him which we do a couple times a week. My Dad's health and mobility has been slowing him down during the last six months. He is on Oxygen all the time and spends most of his time in a wheel chair. This however hasn't stopped him from having Uber take him from the assisted living place to a local bar to meet with friends a couple times a week.

During this experience with him I have learned several things. First is live close to your children if you can. Make it very easy on them to just drop by and check on you or do some quick shopping for you. Move if you have to. Sell your house and downsize. The smaller your house the easier it is on you. You don't need all your stuff and probably your kids don't want it either. I wish he would have done this years ago. Now the house sits empty with my sister and I driving over there just to make sure its being maintained and pickup his mail.

Well tomorrow we move him and I am hopeful it will go well. He has already told us he wants to continue using his doctors which are going to now be 25 miles away. Hopefully over time we can get him to see that they have good doctors in Orange County also.

 

[MuranoJo]

This is a tough topic we all have to face eventually.

Just tonight, my MIL called to chat and said she was going to stop telling people she wasn't feeling well because she didn't want to be put in a nursing home. Further, she (once again) stated she refuses to go to a nursing home--we'll just have to take care of her. (She's still at home with Home Health Care and the family helping her daily, but I'm not sure how long that can last.)

I'm thankful we have LTC policies from a group package offered by my last employer and we intend to hang onto those unless they make huge premium increases, which, luckily, they haven't so far.

 

[cgeidl]

This is something I really know something about as I live in a CCRC. The one I live in is Trinity Terrace in Fort Worth, TX. Trinity Terrace is managed by Pacific Retirement Services, Medford, OR. Pacific Retirement Services manages something like 20 CCRCs most of which are on the West Coast.

When I moved into my one bedroom apartment in Trinity Terrace in 2000 the nonrefundable front end fee was $65,000 and my monthly fee was roughly $1,600. Today my monthly fee is roughly $2,500. Trinity Terrace has now added two new towers with larger units with partly refundable front end fees ranging somewhere between $700,000 and $1,000,000. I don't know how much the monthly fees for these units are other than that they are high. The amount of the front end fee depends on how much (70%, 80% or 90%) is refunded to your heirs when you die.

The monthly fees although large cover everything;i.e meals, utilities, cleaning, laundry, etc. Also note that somewhere between 30% and 50% of your month end fee is tax deductible as prepaid medical expenses. The percentage has something to do with the ratio of expenses for the Extended Care Facility (total care) and the total expenses of the entire operation.

There are 3 levels of care at Trinity Terrace, Independent Living, Extended Living and one somewhere in between for those who need help with daily functions but not so much help as to require moving in the Extended Care facility.

My status is Independent Living which means I come and go whenever I want. When I leave the facility say to spend a week at my Son's house or a month in Florida all I do is let them know I will be gone.

The food is fabulous, activities are numerous; there is a fitness facility and pool on site; transportation for Doctor visits, etc is provided. In addition there is also a Library and Computer Room.

The nice thing about my contract which I signed in 2000 is that if I run out of money in the normal course of events; i.e. I didn't squander it stupidly, Trinity Terrace is contractually obligated to cover all or part of my monthly fees.

You can probably tell from the above that I am 150% sold on the CCRC concept. In my opinion it is far superior to Long Term Care Insurance and a nursing home when needed.

George

We are in a CCRC Community and have been for just three months. It seems very similar to,George's except the costs are much higher. It originally was a Community just for retired military officers but now is for everyone. The best thing about this community to us is the incredible background people living here. Many have written books or have books written about them. The employees are mostly very young and try their best to do a great job. We are in the independent living but have assisted living nursing care, and a memory facility. The costs if you move to one of these facilities stays the same. It is a community that is nonprofit and is very financially secure. The people in the community are very involved in any decisions made by the Board of Directors and their committees for all facets of the community. There are eight or 10 trips a month and outside entertainers coming in and lots of physical activities. It is very well-managed and we are happy campers.

 

[clifffaith]

One thing I neglected to mention from our tour of Carlsbad was that we really liked their meal plan. Reata/Stoneridge gives you 30 meals per month to use yourself or for visitors. Canterbury gave you 30, but you can't have a visitor eat one of your allotted meals (they said they were afraid folks would neglect their own meals in order to save up to treat a friend). Carlsbad gives you 90 points a month. Breakfast costs 1 point, lunch 2 and dinner 3. Basically lunch can be a pretty big meal if you order soup/salad, entree and dessert, so we liked the idea that by eating lunch as our main meal we have points left over to have a hot breakfast on the weekends. You can have a friend share a meal using your points, and you can order your meal to go (we were told many CCRCs did not let food leave the dining room, but we didn't think to ask that anywhere because we assumed we'd always want to go down to dinner). I actually wondered if I was seeing some "hermit/anti-social" behavior the other day because there seemed to be a lot of elderly men picking up lunch to go. On the other hand they could all be getting together on the ocean front deck to enjoy each other's company for all I know.

 

[WinniWoman]

One thing I neglected to mention from our tour of Carlsbad was that we really liked their meal plan. Reata/Stoneridge gives you 30 meals per month to use yourself or for visitors. Canterbury gave you 30, but you can't have a visitor eat one of your allotted meals (they said they were afraid folks would neglect their own meals in order to save up to treat a friend). Carlsbad gives you 90 points a month. Breakfast costs 1 point, lunch 2 and dinner 3. Basically lunch can be a pretty big meal if you order soup/salad, entree and dessert, so we liked the idea that by eating lunch as our main meal we have points left over to have a hot breakfast on the weekends. You can have a friend share a meal using your points, and you can order your meal to go (we were told many CCRCs did not let food leave the dining room, but we didn't think to ask that anywhere because we assumed we'd always want to go down to dinner). I actually wondered if I was seeing some "hermit/anti-social" behavior the other day because there seemed to be a lot of elderly men picking up lunch to go. On the other hand they could all be getting together on the ocean front deck to enjoy each other's company for all I know.

That points thing sounds scarily like timeshare exchanging! LOL!

I am pretty social, but I don't think I would want to eat all my meals with other people.

 

[vacationhopeful]

Mary Ann...
You might have missed the math. 90 points gets you 30 dinners ONLY @ 3pts needed for each dinner. Breakfast is 1 point and Lunch is 2 points. So each day, you have to planned to eat either Breakfast & Lunch OR Dinner only. Or eat only every other day .... starve one day and FEST the next day with all 3 meals. Also .. February is your best month for eating but any month with 31 days, is a LONG month.

So numbers-wise ... you will NOT BE EATING OVER 1/2 of your meals in the dining room. You will be getting take out delivered, shopping for food to cook in your unit or skipping MANY meals due to lack of food in your unit, lack of transportation, fear of end of the month, your lack of money or misuse of your monthly food points.

And if you are 93yo like my aunt who lives in a 2bdr/2ba apartment ... not driving anymore, no kids (or nearby family) ... you need to think about the little things .. like when you are 85yo and you are out of toilet paper ... the pizza place will deliver some type of food, but TP is not on their menu.

 

[rapmarks]

Not every place is the same, but there are many additional costs in an assisted living situation. Medications have to be in bubble wrap packages, you lose the savings on mail order ninety days. Cost goes up if you take over six medications a day, no medications allowed in your room, no creams or lotions, if you are not feeling well, there is a charge to bring meal to your room. You have no transportation for things you need or appointments. when my aunt went on bedridden, costswent way up. Then she went on hospice, costs went up again, every bit of assistance is a charge.

 

[WinniWoman]

Mary Ann...
You might have missed the math. 90 points gets you 30 dinners ONLY @ 3pts needed for each dinner. Breakfast is 1 point and Lunch is 2 points. So each day, you have to planned to eat either Breakfast & Lunch OR Dinner only. Or eat only every other day .... starve one day and FEST the next day with all 3 meals. Also .. February is your best month for eating but any month with 31 days, is a LONG month.

So numbers-wise ... you will NOT BE EATING OVER 1/2 of your meals in the dining room. You will be getting take out delivered, shopping for food to cook in your unit or skipping MANY meals due to lack of food in your unit, lack of transportation, fear of end of the month, your lack of money or misuse of your monthly food points.

And if you are 93yo like my aunt who lives in a 2bdr/2ba apartment ... not driving anymore, no kids (or nearby family) ... you need to think about the little things .. like when you are 85yo and you are out of toilet paper ... the pizza place will deliver some type of food, but TP is not on their menu.

Ha! Ha! You made me laugh! All I can think of with a points system for eating is what do you do when you start getting confused or a little touch of dementia? I can only imagine trying to keep track of our points at older ages! LOL!

We looked at a continuing care place in NH and we didn't like the fact that you HAD to purchase a meal plan when you weren't ready for such a thing. But I would think when you are it would be nice to just be able to have a full meal plan and not worry about whether or not you can have a meal or not. Kind of more like the ones that have on college campuses- a few choices.

Like I have said before, I do not like points systems- timeshares, meal plans, diets or even credit card rewards. But that's just me.

 

[clifffaith]

Mary Ann...
You might have missed the math. 90 points gets you 30 dinners ONLY @ 3pts needed for each dinner. Breakfast is 1 point and Lunch is 2 points. So each day, you have to planned to eat either Breakfast & Lunch OR Dinner only. Or eat only every other day .... starve one day and FEST the next day with all 3 meals. Also .. February is your best month for eating but any month with 31 days, is a LONG month.

So numbers-wise ... you will NOT BE EATING OVER 1/2 of your meals in the dining room. You will be getting take out delivered, shopping for food to cook in your unit or skipping MANY meals due to lack of food in your unit, lack of transportation, fear of end of the month, your lack of money or misuse of your monthly food points.

And if you are 93yo like my aunt who lives in a 2bdr/2ba apartment ... not driving anymore, no kids (or nearby family) ... you need to think about the little things .. like when you are 85yo and you are out of toilet paper ... the pizza place will deliver some type of food, but TP is not on their menu.

Wanted to point out that this is independent living where you get 90 points to divi up between meals (more points in months with 31 days, fewer in February). Once you need meals brought to you or assistance or nursing care you will pay for the extra services. Or you can pay for more meals if you want them. These apartments have small but fully equipped kitchens. I rarely cook using an oven (in fact dinner is usually Lean Cuisine) but one of the things we disliked about the Canterbury was that there was no oven, just a tiny counter top convection oven. When I want to make my holiday breads and cookies, or lasagne or a casserole, even if I'm only doing it once a month I want a regular oven.

Also Carlsbad has regular transportation to the local grocery stores on Monday and Thursday for those who no longer have a car or don't feel like driving that day. The schedule is something like Von's and Sprouts in the morning and Ralph's and Trader Joe's in the afternoon. There is also a small shop in the retirement community for candy bars, toothpaste, TP, quarts of milk, etc.

And I really like the idea that assisted living is done in our own unit, as little or as much help as we need, when the time comes. The other communities we looked at moved you to another part of the facilities once you needed help.

 

[bogey21]

It is a community that is nonprofit and is very financially secure.

This is one thing I forgot to discuss in any of my previous posts. You need to check carefully the CCRC's financial stability before you sign up and pay a large front end fee. Actually this is probably one of the first things you should do.

George