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Continuing Care Retirement Communities

bogey21

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Going back to CCRC, I have always been apprehensive of such communities where you have to buy into it and then the owner/resident passes away, the home is sold again at a fraction.

The way it works at the CCRC where I live is that when one dies the heirs wait until the Marketing Department "sells" the unit to a new resident at the listed price. The heirs then get their 70%. 80% or 90% of the amount paid based on the original contact. At Trinity Terrace this doesn't take long as there is a long waiting list to buy in.

George
 

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So this is interesting. As we continue our research Cliff keeps wanting us to go look at the Brookdale facility that is literally around the block from my mom and dad. I say no way, we've seen the campus living with the other brand, I'm not going to consider something without an expansive campus. And besides, when we sold blinds there (our business is window coverings) when they were known as the Pacific Inn you loved to joke how at 11:30AM you had better be out of the way or you'd be trampled by all the walkers and wheel chairs headed to lunch. That does not say independent living to me. But he sends me an email with a link to Brookdale anyway. So I click on CCRC and 9 facilities come up within 250 miles of our Los Angeles home. This does not include the one close to mom and dad. On closer inspection, apparently you can call yourself a CCRC, but independent living does not have to be part of the package. Eight out of nine start with assisted living and then flow down into memory care and skilled nursing care. Only one, in Bakersfield, has actual independent living. And I'd die at home and let the cats eat me before I'd move to Bakersfield!
 

VacationForever

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In Northern CA, we did not come across a single one of these places that many of you are exploring or staying at, where you actually pay a lump sum to buy into a community. It was very popular in Australia when friends of ours were looking at. I have seen alot of CCR which is a monthly fee plus a menu of services, and the set up can start from independent living, to assisted living, and possibly memory care units and even skilled nursing facility where there are registered nurses and resident doctors. I have seen high end independent living where the resident stays at a small house standalone (cottages) plus optional fee for meals to lower end independent living which looks more like an apartment.
 

clifffaith

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Yesterday we visited the sales building next to the plot of land that will become Reata Glen in San Juan Capistrano, CA. Well sort of SJC. City gave them such a hard time that they ditched the land they'd bought in town and are now in an unincorporated area adjacent to SJC. Our purpose for the meeting was to see if we could even swing it financially. I'd originally told them 8-10 years (before Cliff hits the age 90 cut off for men), but he surprised me a few days ago with wanting to move in five years. And of course they are trying to fill the facility in the first quarter of 2019 when they expect to be finished with the 400 units and all the amenities. A bit early for us -- Mom is in good health except for the emergency cornea transplant she is having today ( she wasn't amused when I told her at least she was getting her dibs in before all the burned cornea eclipse folks) and Dad is, to quote Cliff, "circling the drain", so we must see to their needs first.

Using today's investment assets and the Zillow value of our home less the outstanding mortgage and our SS income, the 18 year age difference works against us with the projection that I'd likely run out of funds four years before my death. That number balances out when we move in later than 2019 and when we factor in not having any heirs, so rather than the estate getting back 75% of the entrance fee it gets something less. We were told we likely could move in with three cats (our four are 17, 10, 8, 5) as long as we were headed toward one and they would age out in a timely manner.

We love Santa Fe and have looked online and requested info on the CCRC there. But the entrance fee would have to be considerably less than the +/- $750K for a two bed/two bath that we saw at both CA facilities we looked at to make us move where it gets cold in winter.
 

VacationForever

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Yesterday we visited the sales building next to the plot of land that will become Reata Glen in San Juan Capistrano, CA. Well sort of SJC. City gave them such a hard time that they ditched the land they'd bought in town and are now in an unincorporated area adjacent to SJC. Our purpose for the meeting was to see if we could even swing it financially. I'd originally told them 8-10 years (before Cliff hits the age 90 cut off for men), but he surprised me a few days ago with wanting to move in five years. And of course they are trying to fill the facility in the first quarter of 2019 when they expect to be finished with the 400 units and all the amenities. A bit early for us -- Mom is in good health except for the emergency cornea transplant she is having today ( she wasn't amused when I told her at least she was getting her dibs in before all the burned cornea eclipse folks) and Dad is, to quote Cliff, "circling the drain", so we must see to their needs first.

Using today's investment assets and the Zillow value of our home less the outstanding mortgage and our SS income, the 18 year age difference works against us with the projection that I'd likely run out of funds four years before my death. That number balances out when we move in later than 2019 and when we factor in not having any heirs, so rather than the estate getting back 75% of the entrance fee it gets something less. We were told we likely could move in with three cats (our four are 17, 10, 8, 5) as long as we were headed toward one and they would age out in a timely manner.

We love Santa Fe and have looked online and requested info on the CCRC there. But the entrance fee would have to be considerably less than the +/- $750K for a two bed/two bath that we saw at both CA facilities we looked at to make us move where it gets cold in winter.

In my post above yours, have you looked into CCRC that does not require a buy-in? Some can run run into as high as 5K to 6K a month in a nice place but that would still be much cheaper than dropping 750K upfront.
 

rapmarks

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In my post above yours, have you looked into CCRC that does not require a buy-in? Some can run run into as high as 5K to 6K a month in a nice place but that would still be much cheaper than dropping 750K upfront.

Yes, your return on the money if invested would really help cover the fees.


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I traveled a lot during my working career and made the time to visit 10 or 12 different CCRCs in many different states during the 4 or 5 years prior to my retirement. Seeing the difference in facilities, activities, etc. was only part of the benefit. The biggest benefit I got out of my visits was being able to compare the costs and the different financial arrangements. Trust me. They were all over the board. This all paid off when I made my decision and chose Trinity Terrace in Fort Worth.

George
 

clifffaith

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In my post above yours, have you looked into CCRC that does not require a buy-in? Some can run run into as high as 5K to 6K a month in a nice place but that would still be much cheaper than dropping 750K upfront.

We are still really just at the beginning of our explorations, but we haven't come across any as yet that have the full range of services from independent living to nursing care that don't have a buy-in. And of course at this point I have been dazzled by the resort-type living at Stoneridge Creek and Reata Glen (owned by the same investors).
 

rapmarks

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My aunts were in sunrise, but I don't know if there was a buy in. They sure nickled and dimed you there


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VacationForever

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We are still really just at the beginning of our explorations, but we haven't come across any as yet that have the full range of services from independent living to nursing care that don't have a buy-in. And of course at this point I have been dazzled by the resort-type living at Stoneridge Creek and Reata Glen (owned by the same investors).
They have to dazzle you to make you part with 750K. The concept of buy in just does not jive with me. We spent 8+ years in the elder care industry and know what to stay away from. The razzle dazzle ones sometimes are really not what it seems to be. Many just have great marketing to make you part with your money and stay there. In the N. CA area that we were in, there were many CCRCs which were pure fee based, from independent to assisted living and the memory care. Some have skilled nursing care. Be warned that most of these setup have high incidents of norovirus, MRSA etc. We intend to age at home and pay for home care unless we absolutely cannot stay home, like requiring skilled nursing care or if dementia results in one of us being violent. We both have high value long term care insurances, with an inflation rider. We know how much home care costs and so we are prepared.
 

WinniWoman

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They have to dazzle you to make you part with 750K. The concept of buy in just does not jive with me. We spent 8+ years in the elder care industry and know what to stay away from. The razzle dazzle ones sometimes are really not what it seems to be. Many just have great marketing to make you part with your money and stay there. In the N. CA area that we were in, there were many CCRCs which were pure fee based, from independent to assisted living and the memory care. Some have skilled nursing care. Be warned that most of these setup have high incidents of norovirus, MRSA etc. We intend to age at home and pay for home care unless we absolutely cannot stay home, like requiring skilled nursing care or if dementia results in one of us being violent. We both have high value long term care insurances, with an inflation rider. We know how much home care costs and so we are prepared.


Just keep in mind- and I was in home care for most of my life- management- it is in no way reliable and consistent. You really have to be lucky to get that ideal someone.
 

clifffaith

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The issue for us is that Cliff knows I will become a hermit, and with our age difference that could be for easily 20 years, and he wants me settled in a community that will not only provide a social outlet, but also be there when my health starts to fail. He is inundating my email with his research. Our very limited studies keep popping up with what I would call "old folks homes" (and he "yells" at me that I am making assumptions before calling to find out). Quite frankly, when "grampa" is in the advertising, I deem it to be an old folks home, when "senior models" are pictured it looks more like an active senior complex.
 

pwrshift

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I'm in Canada and there are probably big differences. Here a nice retirement homes for people that don't yet need assistance costs about $5,000 a month ... and if you go away a month you still pay. That's after tax dollars and to afford that amount you'd need to earn about $9,000 a month just to pay it. With assistance it's much more. You don't usually own the condo here.

I own a business, work a 40+ hour week, have 20 employees, and am well over the normal retirement age. I often wonder if I would have made it to my age if I had retired. I feel unless you associate with 'young' people you get old faster and I don't think you'd get that in a retirement complex. We are looking at downsizing, selling our 4,400 sq ft home on 3/4 acre as just my DW and I live here. A 1,700 sq Ft condo in Toronto is about $1.3 million and while my house would sell for more it's tough to clean out a big house in which we've lived 27 years. Fortunately, in Canada we have affordable heath care and principal residence capital gains are tax free...but our income taxes seem a lot more than in USA.

It's a very big decision but I suspect it's better to make this move before your health goes and your move is one of necessity instead of choice. Decisions. Decisions.
 

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They have to dazzle you to make you part with 750K....The razzle dazzle ones sometimes are really not what it seems to be. Many just have great marketing to make you part with your money and stay there.

There is truth in the above. When I moved into Trinity Terrace in 2001 my buy-in was a non-refundable $65,000 or so and TT was pretty much a well run but bare bones operation. Since I moved in TT has added two new towers and both are on the (pick your poison) 70%, 80% or 90% refundable system requiring buy-ins approaching $1 million. I have benefited from this as they have added all kinds of amenities and upgraded their facilities and dining to entice potential residents to part with such large sums. In their defense they have market analysis studies that show a large demand for larger apartments with expanded amenities. They seem to be right as 90% - 95% of the units in the newest tower were sold pre-construction.

George
 

VacationForever

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There is truth in the above. When I moved into Trinity Terrace in 2001 my buy-in was a non-refundable $65,000 or so and TT was pretty much a well run but bare bones operation. Since I moved in TT has added two new towers and both are on the (pick your poison) 70%, 80% or 90% refundable system requiring buy-ins approaching $1 million. I have benefited from this as they have added all kinds of amenities and upgraded their facilities and dining to entice potential residents to part with such large sums. In their defense they have market analysis studies that show a large demand for larger apartments with expanded amenities. They seem to be right as 90% - 95% of the units in the newest tower were sold pre-construction.

George

Close to $1 million... Too rich for my blood...
 

bogey21

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Close to $1 million... Too rich for my blood...

Mine too. I'm fortunate that I moved in when the buy-in was $65,000. Although I paid a lot less I am treated just the same at those putting up the big bucks.

George

PS One thing I may have forgotten in my earlier posts is that about 35% of my monthly fee is a deductible expense on my Federal Income Tax. The CCRC has their Public Accounting Firm calculate the amount and give me a letter every year. The letter explains why it is deductible and how to deduct it. The deductible percentage has something to do with the ratio between the amounts the CCRC spends on those needing total care and the CCRC's overall operating expenses.
 

VacationForever

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Mine too. I'm fortunate that I moved in when the buy-in was $65,000. Although I paid a lot less I am treated just the same at those putting up the big bucks.

George

PS One thing I may have forgotten in my earlier posts is that about 35% of my monthly fee is a deductible expense on my Federal Income Tax. The CCRC has their Public Accounting Firm calculate the amount and give me a letter every year. The letter explains why it is deductible and how to deduct it. The deductible percentage has something to do with the ratio between the amounts the CCRC spends on those needing total care and the CCRC's overall operating expenses.
I don't remember reading, how much is your monthly fees and what do the fees cover? Thanks.
 

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So today Cliff dragged me to a sit down at the high end "old folks home" on the Palos Verdes Peninsula. I am against it because I'd been considering a CCRC move "an adventure", and moving 20 minutes away is no adventure. Prices are very similar to what we found in Pleasanton and San Juan Capistrano, except that there is no charming campus with water scaping and community garden patches, so to my mind we'd be paying the same for less. I think it would only be a consideration for me as a single, after Cliff was cared for at home (assuming there's any money left!). Next month we have an appointment to visit a CCRC in Santa Fe. It is also at 100% occupancy with a wait list like the one today.
 

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How about the San Diego area? I got the idea before you wanted to remain near LA. But if you're considering adventure, I'm familiar with several of these, and the Carlsbad one is just a block from the train station. Casa de Manana is in La Jolla right in front of the beach. Etc.

http://frontporch.net/our-communities/retirement/

Some of them are the kind with a buy-in fee, and some are just monthly.
 

bogey21

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I don't remember reading, how much is your monthly fees and what do the fees cover? Thanks.
At first (in the year 2000) my monthly fee was about $1,550. Today 17 years later it is about $2,700. This is for a one bedroom apartment. Fees cover just about everything;i.e. one meal daily, cleaning, utilities, cable TV, laundry, local transportation, garage parking, most activities. And remember about 35% of the monthly fee is tax deductible for FIT purposes.

George
 

clifffaith

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How about the San Diego area? I got the idea before you wanted to remain near LA. But if you're considering adventure, I'm familiar with several of these, and the Carlsbad one is just a block from the train station. Casa de Manana is in La Jolla right in front of the beach. Etc.

http://frontporch.net/our-communities/retirement/

Some of them are the kind with a buy-in fee, and some are just monthly.


Thank you so much! This looks like an excellent avenue to explore! I said to Cliff in the car yesterday that San Juan Capistrano felt like it was just down the block compared to the idea of Santa Fe, so Carlsbad/San Diego isn't all that much further.
 

WinniWoman

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At first (in the year 2000) my monthly fee was about $1,550. Today 17 years later it is about $2,700. This is for a one bedroom apartment. Fees cover just about everything;i.e. one meal daily, cleaning, utilities, cable TV, laundry, local transportation, garage parking, most activities. And remember about 35% of the monthly fee is tax deductible for FIT purposes.

George


That seems like a hell of a lot of money per month.
 

bogey21

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That seems like a hell of a lot of money per month.

True, but there are offsets such as 35% being deductible on my FIT. Another is that I don't have to pay for Long Term Care Insurance as the CCRC is contractually obligated to take care of me if/when I get old and can't take care of myself.

I haven't looked at Long Term Care Policies in many years but my recollection is that they can (1) raise your premiums, (2) require a waiting period before they pay, (3) only cover you for a set number of years, and (4) charge a lot for inflation protection. In addition the amount of one's coverage may be insufficient depending on how many years ago you purchased your policy. Because of my contract with my CCRC I don't have to worry about any of this.

George
 
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