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Do you know how much you are getting skimmed?

DanCali

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Each weeks owner bought into a season, but the new "seasons" in points are different and vary by week. If you believe that the number of points you should have gotten is equal to the average required to trade into your resort in the season you bought (i.e., points required to trade into all weeks in a season = points allocated to all owners of that season) then you were probably surprised to realize you got less. Some have referred to this as "skimming"

So how much are you getting skimmed? In an effort to help owners who have not computed this, I've created a spreadsheet computing the average points required to trade into each season at each resort...

A few notes:

1) The spreadsheet is based on the 2011 Friday to Friday calendar. If it did not appear from the weeks calendars that the resort had a Friday checkin I did not compute the average

2) Doing the same calculations based on Saturday checkins may produce slightly different results. However, all points calendars seem to be based on Friday checkin weeks, so this was easier to do.

3) I am not familiar with most of the resorts first-hand so I may have misinterpreted seasons. If so, please let me know and I will update the document.

4) If something was unclear it is highlighted in red bold font. If an owner at that resort will clarify it, I can make any relevant changes.

5) Some copying and pasting was involved. If you find any mistakes in your spreadsheet please let me (and others) know and they will be fixed.

6) I will reiterate that due to the points above there may be errors in the spreadsheet... If a result seems surprising, and you find a mistake I will try to fix it in a timely fashion.

7) If you don't care about skimming - you do not need to look at this file...

With those caveats, here is a link to the document...

The document just tells you the average required to trade into your season at your resort. To figure out the "skim", compare that number to the points you were allocated should you join the points program.

I personally value each point at about $0.50, but your mileage may vary. Perhaps Marriott will soon start renting points and we can use their price to determine the cost of skimming. Whatever value you place on a point, you can use that to place a dollar value on skimming. One can interpret this as the cost to convert to points.
 
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DanCali

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Mine is easy. I am getting skimmed 100%. I get zero points for my bronze weeks.

You can still use the spreadsheet to see the average to trade into your season :)

But yes, if you got zero the skim will be 100%, no matter what the average is :D
 

DanCali

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Nice job! I think I like my milk with the fat in it; good old Vitamin D for D'licious ;)

Everything matches up for Newport Coast AFAIK.

WRT to NCV, that is one where checkin day makes a small difference. Week 22, June 3 (Fri) checkin is Gold season but June 4 (Sat) checkin is Platinum. Slotting week 22 in the Platinum season will affect the averages of both seasons slightly, but not by much... (~20 pts)
 

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Nice, thanks for doing that. I was a bit surprised at NCV, all I have been looking at is the summer weeks and thinking the amount I was skimmed was massive... It is actually only a few hundred points under average, just like my Harbour Lake.......
 

camachinist

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The key with NCV is the disparity between the platinum weeks most commonly booked, which are July and August, and the points which are awarded for surrendering a platinum NCV for points. On the surface, the averages appear great, but when you take the lowest of those week's 'cost', 4225, and subtract the 3475 surrender, that's 750 points, or 7500.00 cost and 300.00 MF, if one could purchase only 750 points, basing on projected pricing. Add another 500 for July and fugetabout the fixed week of July 4.

Note that the 'low' part of platinum season is the same as all of gold season, with the exception of the one week prior to the holiday fixed week, which is much higher.

Gold is a much 'better' deal, with 2900 charged and 2700 awarded, but almost no one I know, outside myself, owns gold at NCV. Was I a sucker? IDK, Easter gets me nearly 2K every year... :D
 

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Thanks!

That was a lot of work! And very thorough! It even reminded me that I have a 1-51 plat (as opposed to 1-50) at the Waoihai.

Some people see the new points system as making the playing field more even, especially for higher valued resorts. They dismiss complaints that some resorts weren't valued very highly as whining by unhappy uptraders who bought el cheapo resorts/time.

I wish they'd see that not all the complaints are from uptraders. Lateral traders are not happy, either. Ko Olina was apparently priced a couple bucks less than my own resort based on points awarded, so I should be able to trade in the point system there, right??? Not unless I downgrade view, downsize, or go in off-season (which I can't because I've got a school-age child)! And to the people who maintain that's not a big deal because II didn't guarantee view: an IV at my resort can't afford to get an IV at Ko Olina except in off-season. The fact that I can't get that week without eating into my next years points (thus forcing me to trade for points a 2nd year) is not right.

It doesn't mean that people shouldn't consider the new system (fee savings for some, etc are other aspects), but to me we should ALL be up in arms about not being able to make lateral trades.

I know, life sucks, it's not fair, etc, but I expected more from Marriott.
 

GregT

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Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
If you believe that the number of points you should have gotten is equal to the average required to trade into your resort in the season you bought (i.e., points required to trade into all weeks in a season = points allocated to all owners of that season) then you were probably surprised to realize you got less. Some have referred to this as "skimming"

So how much are you getting skimmed?

This is a good working process -- but it understates the skim for both 1) a fixed week owner and 2) a dual-week owner who's mastered booking prime reservations at 13 months. The use of an average for the season understates what each of those owners is giving up.

I know exactly how much I'm being skimmed --- 13.3% for my high TDI fixed week properties. That's 1,675 points for each week, or $838 per week at $0.50 per point.

Best to all,

Greg
 

Lawlar

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Basic Question

Just to show you how confused I am, I have read hundreds of posts but I still don't know what you mean exacting by "skim." Does that mean the points assigned are not equal between resorts? Or does it mean something else?

Marriott has determined my unit is worth 7475 points. If I were to join the program (unlikely, but it might be tempting if I could do it one year only), will my unit always be worth 7475 points? And if my unit's points don't increase in future years, does it mean that Marriott will be free to increase the points it takes to "trade" into another resort (or my own resort)?

Is it going to be like Reward Points that get devalued as Marriott increases the number of points it takes to get a week at a resort?

I can see Dave M writing in the future that it is fair for Marriott to increase the points it takes to acquire a week at a resort because of inflation increasing Marriott's costs. But Marriott fails to understand that our units should also appreciate in value.

Can someone explain the skim thing for me?

Dave M: I'm sorry I'm picking on you in this post (nothing personal). But I cringe every time you back Marriott's decision to devalue my reward points that I've been collecting for almost 30 years. I'm getting close to one million reward points, and they get smaller and smaller, despite all the money I spent over the years to earn those points.
 

5infam

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Take the number of points you get for your unit - then look at the spreadsheet for the season you own, at the resort you own. You will find that the number of points Marriott is giving you for your unit, will not be enough points (most likely, or at least not for the whole season) to obtain a week in your season.

In other words, my Maui Ocean Club gets me 3,100 points if I hand it into Marriott. I always go in July to Maui. If I want to obtain a summer week using points in Maui, my same unit will cost me 3,550 points. So Marriott gives me 3,100 for my summer unit, but charges me 3,550 points to rent it back out - therefore they skim off of me the difference of 450 points. Make sense?

The spreadsheet calculates averages across the entire season, unit size, view, etc for each resort. For instance, if I wanted to use my 3,100 points to trade back into Maui, I could do that, but only for a few off season weeks in my season. The rest of my season costs me more points than they give me. My resort is not that bad, some are getting skimmed far worse.
 

5infam

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Lawler - I just looked your unit up - now I understand why you don't understand the skim. You own a fixed week in January (week 4), Ocean Front 2 bedroom. If Marriott is saying you get 7,475 points for this unit - then that is exactly equal to how many points it would take, in 2011 to get the same week in the exact same unit. So for you, if you wanted to roll your week over to the following year, so you could have 2 - 2 bedroom units, ocean front, week 4, then you could do so with no skim.

However, let's say you wanted to trade your week in for points, and then go for 2 weeks in 2011 - your week #4, plus the following week, which is week #5 (January 28th, 2011). You still get your 7,475 from Marriott for your trade in of your week #4, but that week #5 week, the week following your week, will cost you 8,650 points from Marriott. So if you wanted to trade in for points, so you can get your same unit and go for 2 weeks the following year, you can do it with no skim, but it will need to request week #3, not week #5. If you want week #5, then that will cost you an extra 1,175 in points - thus the skim.

Sorry if I confused you further in any way - I am still trying to get all this straight myself.
 
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camachinist

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Marriott has determined my unit is worth 7475 points. If I were to join the program (unlikely, but it might be tempting if I could do it one year only), will my unit always be worth 7475 points? And if my unit's points don't increase in future years, does it mean that Marriott will be free to increase the points it takes to "trade" into another resort (or my own resort)?

I'm unclear on that from documents, but my best guess that the point level you enroll your week at will never drop. So, if you get 7475, that's what you'll always get and your MF's will run with your underlying resort as they do currently.

The difference is, now, as a deeded weeks owner, you will always get a week at your home resort. Your deed guarantees you that. Beyond that, you're at the whim of Marriott and how they decide to handle the reservations, exchange and points systems. They're entitled to do that, legally. So, if they 'devalue' the DC by changing the points chart Dan worked on, they can do that. If they want to change the rules and policies of reserving and exchanging, to the limits your governing documents allow, they can do that.

As a fellow MRP collector, I appreciate your concern about the devaluing of MRP's. That's why I'm an advocate of 'earn and burn'. However, regardless, those MRP's are a perk of your loyalty, even though I consider their cost to Marriott to be rolled into the price they charge you. Since Marriott charges that price to everyone, MRP collector or not, fair enough; consider it 'free'. The DCP thing is a whole different game. You're paying cash to participate, especially if you choose to 'buy' points and, at minimum, you're paying an enrollment fee to join your already paid-for week into the system, so the future changes to the points 'values' impact the value of your enrollment, concurrent with the impacts of value of your underlying week. It impacts the value of your 'pre-paid' vacation and I'm not talking resale value, rather value as a vehicle for pleasure and enjoyment, which is what it was purchased for (in most cases).

I hope this week brings some interesting meetings at MVCI. I hope they serve milk, fat free ;)
 

DanCali

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This is a good working process -- but it understates the skim for both 1) a fixed week owner and 2) a dual-week owner who's mastered booking prime reservations at 13 months. The use of an average for the season understates what each of those owners is giving up.

I agree with this and as a NCV owner can also relate. If someone is a dual week owner who is persistent and lucky enough to get high-demand weeks, the average of the season is not representative and underestimates what you'd be shortchanged if enrolling in points. But the average of the season is an objective measure and even based on that benchmark things don't look that good.

For fixed week owners the computation is much simpler. For the fixed weeks defined as Platinum Plus, I did separate those out. For other owners owning fixed weeks, the computation should be easy enough - just see what it required to trade into the fixed week you own and compare to what Marriott gave you...

Losing 1600+ points on a fixed Maui week hurts. :(
 

LAX Mom

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I have a question about skimming. Many people have stated that skimming doesn't matter if you continue to use your week at your home resort. Do nothing and you can still get a week in the season you own = no skimming.

However, what if you enroll your weeks and decide to switch to points for the coming year (2011). So prior to Oct. 31 you give your week to Marriott and get XXX number of points in return. Then during 2011 you can't find a location you'd like in exchange for your points and decide you'd rather just stay at your home resort that year. So at that point you don't have enough points for 7 nights at your home resort.

How does Marriott answer the skimming issue in the above situation? You've traded for points, but later decide to stay at your home resort and don't have enough points to book in your season. Couldn't this happen with the new points program?
 

LisaH

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I think there might be mistake for Canyon Villas. Week 22-34 are in Gold season and I can't believe it takes 4175 points to reserve a 2BR. As a matter of fact, according to Marriott's published table, it takes only 1725 for these weeks.
 

DanCali

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Just to show you how confused I am, I have read hundreds of posts but I still don't know what you mean exacting by "skim." Does that mean the points assigned are not equal between resorts? Or does it mean something else?

Marriott has determined my unit is worth 7475 points.


Can someone explain the skim thing for me?

Lawler - I just looked your unit up - now I understand why you don't understand the skim. You own a fixed week in January (week 4), Ocean Front 2 bedroom. If Marriott is saying you get 7,475 points for this unit - then that is exactly equal to how many points it would take, in 2011 to get the same week in the exact same unit.

Lawlar - the simple explanation of skim is that Marriott gives owners less points than it requires to trade into what they own. So someone owning a fixed week may get 5000 points but Marriott charges others 6000 points to exchange into that week. It creates a situation where if, for a particular resort, you add what what owners in a season got and compare to what Marriott requires to book all those weeks you have a lot of points missing. Where the missing points go is anyone's guess since this issue is not addressed anywhere. Marriott could maybe rent out unused weeks, rent owners back the skimmed points etc. We just don't know.

5infam - no skim for a particular unit seems to me like an oxymoron so let's dig in a bit deeper and find it :)

The skim for this fixed week is a bit harder to assess because of a couple of reasons. First, the Maui fixed week calendar shows they are only Saturday to Saturday. The points calendars are Friday-Friday. The second reason is that there is a big jump in points required to trade into this resort on January 28, 2011 which is Week 4 for a Friday checkin and Week 5 for a Saturday checkin.

To get a better idea of the magnitude of the skim, let's first look at the 2012 calendar. We know Lawlar got 7475 for hix fixed week 4 2BR OF at the Maui villas. Fixed week 4 (Sat-Sat) is Jan 28-Feb 4. Using the points calendar for 2012, it takes 8650 points to trade into a full week in that 2BR for the period from Jan 27 to mid February. So the skim in 2012 is 1175 points (or close to $600 at $0.50 per point)

The reason the skim is more hidden in 2011 is the abberation in the calendar that Friday checkin for week 4 (Jan 28) happens 6 days after the Saturday checkin for week 4 (Jan 22)... This probably happens every 6-7 years, but should be the exception to the norm.

If we want to get precise about what happens in a year like 2011, there is still a skim, only smaller... Week 4 is technically Jan 22-29 in 2011. The points required for those 7 mights are:

Jan 22 (sat) - 1350
Jan 23 (sat) - 950
Jan 24 (sat) - 950
Jan 25 (sat) - 950
Jan 26 (sat) - 950
Jan 27 (sat) - 950
Jan 28 (sat) - 1575

Total: 7675

SO the skim in a year like 2011 is "only" 200 points. The skim in the next years until such an abberation happens again (5-6 years I think) will be 1175 points. Relative to 8650 (the "true" value of the week) thats 13.5%, very close to what GregT reported for his Maui fixed weeks.
 

DanCali

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I think there might be mistake for Canyon Villas. Week 22-34 are in Gold season and I can't believe it takes 4175 points to reserve a 2BR. As a matter of fact, according to Marriott's published table, it takes only 1725 for these weeks.

You are correct. I accidentally copied the wrong line. A new version has been uploaded... Hopefully it makes it look less bad :)

Thanks for the catching this!
 
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5infam

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See, just when I think I have things down, someone comes in and proves me wrong;) . Nicely done - I just took a quick glance at a google search on "2011 timeshare weeks calendar", and went on the assumption that week 4 was always the last week in January for the lessor points.

However, if he owned a week 3 - and wanted to trade in for points for another week 3, there would be no skim in that case - right?
 

DanCali

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I have a question about skimming. Many people have stated that skimming doesn't matter if you continue to use your week at your home resort. Do nothing and you can still get a week in the season you own = no skimming.

However, what if you enroll your weeks and decide to switch to points for the coming year (2011). So prior to Oct. 31 you give your week to Marriott and get XXX number of points in return. Then during 2011 you can't find a location you'd like in exchange for your points and decide you'd rather just stay at your home resort that year. So at that point you don't have enough points for 7 nights at your home resort.

How does Marriott answer the skimming issue in the above situation? You've traded for points, but later decide to stay at your home resort and don't have enough points to book in your season. Couldn't this happen with the new points program?

That is a very good point.

Yes it could happen. And I am not aware that anyone has asked this.

As a side note - I think one needs to think about it slightly differently. Basically once you redeem for points in a given year you are like a points owner. You have no home resort and the best thing to do is to stop thinking like a weeks owner at that point... You just try to use the points you got (post skim) in whatever manner works best for you. If you make a reservation at (what was) your home resort or elsewhere that's neither here nor there. Once you have the points, you are not restricted to a particular resort or season (you can, in fact, book a different season at your "home" resort). You are only limited by availability and the number of points you have.

If you'll take a look at the spreadsheet for NCV you will see that some Platinum weeks are 2900 points to book and some are 4700. The fact that I got 3475 versus ~3700 (the average of the season) means there was skim. With the 3475 points I can still book the 2900 points Platinum weeks and come out ahead but the fact that NCV is my home resort doesn't really matter at this point, nor does it negate the skimming. Note that had I gotten the full 3700 points I'd have more points left over when booking a 2900 point week and would still be unable to book the 4700 points weeks. On the other hand, I can book in the Gold season too and I can book at any other resort with using the 3475 points I got. The issue is that Marriott should have given me 3700 points, because that's the number that represents the average "trade power" of my season.

And this skim issue seems to affect 100% of weeks owners.
 
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DanCali

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See, just when I think I have things down, someone comes in and proves me wrong;) . Nicely done - I just took a quick glance at a google search on "2011 timeshare weeks calendar", and went on the assumption that week 4 was always the last week in January for the lessor points.

However, if he owned a week 3 - and wanted to trade in for points for another week 3, there would be no skim in that case - right?

Now you are changing the story :)

If he had a fixed week 3, I don't think Marriott would value his week at 7475 points :D

Marriott has been pretty consistent with the 6%-13% haircut in value.
 

pipet

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This is a good working process -- but it understates the skim for both 1) a fixed week owner and 2) a dual-week owner who's mastered booking prime reservations at 13 months. The use of an average for the season understates what each of those owners is giving up.

It also underestimates what 12 month owners are used to getting. I'm used to booking in the summer without any difficulty, so altho using averages my skim is only 374 pts, in reality, I lose 800 pts for booking in summer, and it feels like skim as I need those points to get into similarly priced resorts (like-for-like exchanges). For someone who got up early to book President's week or other holiday weeks, their realized skim is 1100 at my resort with OV. It's true, they aren't guaranteed those weeks, but at least you have a shot with the weeks system.

I guess at this point I'd be happier if Marriott changed their points system to give the average w/o skim (cause at least that would have a rationale and is as fair as possible to fix stupid floating seasons), other than their profit), but it would still be painful for anyone who can't travel at off-peak times.
 

tombo

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Great chart Dan, and the best analytical explanation of skim on the whole Marriott forum. I am sure it took a lot of work and I know many here appreciate you taking the time to detail the points and post them. I looked at details that affected me, you figured out details for the good of all. Thanks again for the hard work.

I feel that the best way for Marriott to have done it was to give all seasons (example platinum weeks) at a resort the same number of points rather than the average. Even giving platinum owners the average number of points in te platinum season doesn't work out well for owners. Even if they had given all platinum owners the average for the season (they didn't give enough to even equal the average at most resrts), then NO platinum owners could afford to reserve the best weeks because all are out of reach using the average number of points. If ALL platinum owners had the option based on availability to reserve ALL platinum weeks, why should any week(s) now be out of reach using points? I assume it is so Marriott can profit by skimming points from owners.

If your week at your resort is a platinum week, and all platinum owners can reserve weeks 21 to 36, then give all owners enough points to book any week 21 to 36, not just enough points to reserve week 21 or 36 (or as in many cases not enough points to book any platinum week). If Marriott deems those weeks at your resort are worth 3000 points, then give ALL platinum owners at that resort 3000 points. You now can trade for any 3000 point week at any resort, and you also can bank points and reserve 2 platinum weeks in your home resort the following year (one with points, one with home week). That would be fair and a points program I would join. I will not join the current program where they aren't even giving me enough points to reserve ANY week in my season. :mad:
 
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Cindala

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I feel that the best way for Marriott to have done it was to give all seasons (ex platinum weeks) at a resort the same number of points rather than the average. If ALL platinum owners had the option based on availability to reserve ALL platinum weeks, why should any week(s) now be out of reach using points? I assume it is so Marriott can profit by skimming points from owners.

Well said, but if Marriott didn't do this, then no weeks owner would have the need to buy any points and there wouldn't be any revenue generated. It's all about making money, disguised behind the idea that flexibility is the better way.
 
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