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Wyndham eliminating mega-renters

paxsarah

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@HitchHiker71 very factual representation.
playing the victim game
pathetic.
half truths or outright lies
the faucet is about to be forcibly shut off, oh baby
people who make a game out of cheating the system
questionable practices

I'm not sure we got the same message out of reading Hitchhiker's post.
 

troy12n

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I'm not sure we got the same message out of reading Hitchhiker's post.

He certainly expressed his thoughts in a much more diplomatic way than I did. But feel free to point out where anything I said was factually inaccurate.

The only people I feel sorry for are the owners who used their points for themselves and their family vacation and maybe who in the process rented a stay or two to help defer MF costs. Not the "number of GC's in the hundreds" crowd...

I'm not holding punches, if you don't like me expressing my opinion, please feel free to put me on ignore...
 

HitchHiker71

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These resale Wyndham points will go to new buyers, who will attend a timeshare presentation with their million resale points, a salesperson will show them the benefits of Platinum and buying some points to bring everything into Platinum, and those same points will be used at discounts and for reservations way ahead of the slackers who don't book what they need soon enough. I can guarantee this will happen. There will be bargains to get platinum, just like my price to get platinum in 2007. It's always tempting, it tempted me.

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here - but if you're saying that resale points will somehow be converted into developer eligible points during the sales process - I have tried repeatedly over the past two years to find a way to do this - and have been shut down every time and told this is no longer possible and hasn't been possible for roughly 10 years now. I highly doubt there will be "special deals" given to convert resale to retail. With that in mind - those points will stay as resale points - and therefore I don't see how those same points will be used for VIP discounts? Or are you referring to the non-VIP discount windows offered? My overall sense is that the new Wyndham CEO isn't going to allow the wheeling and dealing that was permissible under prior executive leadership teams. It's a new culture at Wyndham now - using different rules now. Old vs new.
 

rickandcindy23

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I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here - but if you're saying that resale points will somehow be converted into developer eligible points during the sales process - I have tried repeatedly over the past two years to find a way to do this - and have been shut down every time and told this is no longer possible and hasn't been possible for roughly 10 years now. I highly doubt there will be "special deals" given to convert resale to retail. With that in mind - those points will stay as resale points - and therefore I don't see how those same points will be used for VIP discounts? Or are you referring to the non-VIP discount windows offered? My overall sense is that the new Wyndham CEO isn't going to allow the wheeling and dealing that was permissible under prior executive leadership teams. It's a new culture at Wyndham now - using different rules now. Old vs new.
Until the sales' department cannot sell anything at all. They need to incentivize to sell. The prices are outrageous for platinum, so I see a path for them to offer cheap conversions. Why would they not? They did that less than five years ago that I am aware of, because I had friends who did it. There is a recent post of someone offered Gold. The presentation was sleazy, if you ask me.

If you are a Wyndham employee, you might want to say that because most of your posts come across that way.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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He certainly expressed his thoughts in a much more diplomatic way than I did. But feel free to point out where anything I said was factually inaccurate.

The only people I feel sorry for are the owners who used their points for themselves and their family vacation and maybe who in the process rented a stay or two to help defer MF costs. Not the "number of GC's in the hundreds" crowd...

I'm not holding punches, if you don't like me expressing my opinion, please feel free to put me on ignore...

so I guess your not a Tom Brady fan.........
 

Cyrus24

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If you are a Wyndham employee, you might want to say that because most of your posts come across that way.
I don't believe hitchhker71 to be a Wyndham employee, but, I'd certainly bet that he's been 'compensated' for all the work he's done for them. That should be disclosed.
 

HitchHiker71

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Until the sales' department cannot sell anything at all. They need to incentivize to sell. The prices are outrageous for platinum, so I see a path for them to offer cheap conversions. Why would they not? They did that less than five years ago that I am aware of, because I had friends who did it. There is a recent post of someone offered Gold. The presentation was sleazy, if you ask me.

Interesting. You had friends who were able to convert resale contracts to developer contracts within the last five years? I only became an owner in July 2018 - so I cannot speak from experience - I can only relay what I've been told from others in the past. I think people here on TUG are underestimating the culture changes ongoing at Wyndham after Michael Brown was installed as the CEO in 2017.

If you are a Wyndham employee, you might want to say that because most of your posts come across that way.

This statement serves as another good example of the "us vs them" mentality here on TUG. This appears to be a nice way of saying that if I don't agree with the prior sentiments here on TUG from the old crew, then I must be in cahoots with Wyndham. Newsflash - I'm part of the new crew - and just because my perspective is different - doesn't make me the enemy - it doesn't mean I work for a timeshare company - it simply means I have a different - and equally valid - perspective. Just because I choose to build bridges and attempt to effect change - my motives here are called into question. So let's be crystal clear here, I am not a Wyndham employee. I have never received any compensation from Wyndham for any of the work that I've done. I've never asked for any compensation for what I've done either. I'm not a "tit for tat" type person either. I do what I do simply because I choose to do it. I don't have any expectations in return. Expectations are simply premeditated resentments in this life IME.

For those interested, I work in IT for a software development company and have never worked for any timeshare company. My first foray into timeshare ownership started in 2018. I'm a relatively new timeshare owner interested in working with the timeshare company I have made an investment in to effect positive change for myself and other owners who are also interested in not continuing to embrace an "us vs them" mentality. If you any/or anyone else doesn't appreciate this new perspective - we can agree to disagree - and leave it at that. Nothing that anyone here on TUG says or attempts to do will prevent me from pushing forward with full intention in building bridges and effecting positive change for my part.
 

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I don't believe hitchhker71 to be a Wyndham employee, but, I'd certainly bet that he's been 'compensated' for all the work he's done for them. That should be disclosed.

I get the impression he's not and he's certainly not required to disclose if he is. He's been a lot more helpful for the TUG community than any of the people playing loose and fast with the rules that some of you idolize... I would like to hope you don't run him off
 

Cyrus24

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I get the impression he's not and he's certainly not required to disclose if he is. He's been a lot more helpful for the TUG community than any of the people playing loose and fast with the rules that some of you idolize... I would like to hope you don't run him off
Please don't continue to put me in with this group of TUGgers that you vilify. I've never paid for a GC because I seldom use them Only 15% of my account is resale. I have rented in the last year to cover some of my MF's since my regular travel was interrupted by COVID. You have a very broad brush that you paint with. A little more acceptance and empathy would go a long way for you to have some credibility. And, you really SHOULD become a member of this amazing group.
 

rickandcindy23

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Interesting. You had friends who were able to convert resale contracts to developer contracts within the last five years? I only became an owner in July 2018 - so I cannot speak from experience - I can only relay what I've been told from others in the past. I think people here on TUG are underestimating the culture changes ongoing at Wyndham after Michael Brown was installed as the CEO in 2017.



This statement serves as another good example of the "us vs them" mentality here on TUG. This appears to be a nice way of saying that if I don't agree with the prior sentiments here on TUG from the old crew, then I must be in cahoots with Wyndham. Newsflash - I'm part of the new crew - and just because my perspective is different - doesn't make me the enemy - it doesn't mean I work for a timeshare company - it simply means I have a different - and equally valid - perspective. Just because I choose to build bridges and attempt to effect change - my motives here are called into question. So let's be crystal clear here, I am not a Wyndham employee. I have never received any compensation from Wyndham for any of the work that I've done. I've never asked for any compensation for what I've done either. I'm not a "tit for tat" type person either. I do what I do simply because I choose to do it. I don't have any expectations in return. Expectations are simply premeditated resentments in this life IME.

For those interested, I work in IT for a software development company and have never worked for any timeshare company. My first foray into timeshare ownership started in 2018. I'm a relatively new timeshare owner interested in working with the timeshare company I have made an investment in to effect positive change for myself and other owners who are also interested in not continuing to embrace an "us vs them" mentality. If you any/or anyone else doesn't appreciate this new perspective - we can agree to disagree - and leave it at that. Nothing that anyone here on TUG says or attempts to do will prevent me from pushing forward with full intention in building bridges and effecting positive change for my part.
No, it's not an us vs. them post. You do come across that way, and you keep talking about Michael Brown as though you know him personally. It was not meant to be an accusation at all. I thought you might be trying to shed a light on the changes as they relate to Wyndham's side. You did the same thing when changes were made to the computer system a while back, if that was indeed you.
 

paxsarah

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No, it's not an us vs. them post. You do come across that way, and you keep talking about Michael Brown as though you know him personally. It was not meant to be an accusation at all. I thought you might be trying to shed a light on the changes as they relate to Wyndham's side. You did the same thing when changes were made to the computer system a while back, if that was indeed you.
Hitchhiker and Richelle have made it very clear that they have developed relationships with some of the folks within Wyndham, and as a result have been able to create two-way communication between TUG and Wyndham (and FB and Wyndham, where they are also both very active) regarding website issues and updates. I have been very impressed with the level of influence that allowed TUG members basically a direct conduit to Wyndham to make suggestions/report bugs. Many things that were "broken" or sub-optimal after the abrupt website update of last year were fixed more quickly and/or prioritized because of their efforts. And they've done this, as best I can tell, simply because they want to improve the owner experience and provide clarity. It's basically all here on TUG.
 

rickandcindy23

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Hitchhiker and Richelle have made it very clear that they have developed relationships with some of the folks within Wyndham, and as a result have been able to create two-way communication between TUG and Wyndham (and FB and Wyndham, where they are also both very active) regarding website issues and updates. I have been very impressed with the level of influence that allowed TUG members basically a direct conduit to Wyndham to make suggestions/report bugs. Many things that were "broken" or sub-optimal after the abrupt website update of last year were fixed more quickly and/or prioritized because of their efforts. And they've done this, as best I can tell, simply because they want to improve the owner experience and provide clarity. It's basically all here on TUG.
It was not meant to be accusatory. I thought maybe this poster was trying to SHED SOME LIGHT from Wyndham's perspective, which is actually what I get from the posts, which I find to be very well thought out and helpful to me.

As an owner of over 14 years now, I have had some interesting conversations of my own with Wyndham employees, who love owners and are probably getting somewhat beat up over these changes. That has always been a concern of mine (for the employees) because I know one owner of multiple-millions of points who was threatened to be shut down after yelling at an employee. Ironically, he was shut down about two years ago, if I remember correctly. We had dinner with him about five years ago and he had a huge business.
 

dgalati

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@HitchHiker71 very factual representation.

I guess back in the day, TUG was more welcoming of people who make a game out of cheating the system. I'm sure a lot of you learned some really questionable practices from people back in the day too. Under the guise of "well, they aren't stopping us"... please.
I remember the first time someone pointed out the loophole of resale points being used with VIP discounts. Boy did that comment go over like a lead Zeppelin!
 

rickandcindy23

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I remember the first time someone pointed out the loophole of resale points being used with VIP discounts. Boy did that comment go over like a lead Zeppelin!
You have been a member for six years, and I guarantee there were open conversations on TUG in 2007 about that.
 

rickandcindy23

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My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points. They were treated as platinum. It's how it was, and they are ending it. Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently? We didn't. Salespeople sold it that way to some. I didn't get sold with that benefit in mind. Anyone who added resale points after a VIP purchase could figure it out. It was obvious.

For those who don't know the past and how easy it was to get platinum, I know people who bought Wyndham points resale and called Wyndham corporate, paid $2,500 and converted all of their resale points (at once) to platinum. This was discussed on TUG many times. I was so surprised that one guy who did that just gave his 1,000,000+ points back to Wyndham because RCI no longer offered 2 bedroom units at DVC and he needed those 2 bedroom units. He is a friend of mine, so I know that one specifically.

I also know of a TUG member who went to Fairfield Bay and bought 1 million points for $10,000. I don't think he actually went to Fairfield Bay, but he called and did it over the phone.

So things have changed and have gotten much more expensive, but another downturn in the economy could bring some deals to those willing to pay for it.
 
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dgalati

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My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points. They were treated as platinum. It's how it was, and they are ending it. Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently? We didn't.
You had no option to book them differently. Where some owners crossed the line was when they bought millions of resale points to use with VIP discounts then ran a commercial rental business. Any one that used more GC's then they were allotted more then likely running a rental business. Some were forced to rent just to cover maintenance fees while others profited off other owners availability to book for personal use. I do know sales also sold this strategy to upsell owners to VIP levels.
 

dgalati

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You have been a member for six years, and I guarantee there were open conversations on TUG in 2007 about that.
I became a member in 2015 but like @troy12n I didn't become a member for several years. What forced me to join was the free add credits in market place and it also was a very good value to join for 3 years at a time.
 

HitchHiker71

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No, it's not an us vs. them post. You do come across that way, and you keep talking about Michael Brown as though you know him personally. It was not meant to be an accusation at all. I thought you might be trying to shed a light on the changes as they relate to Wyndham's side. You did the same thing when changes were made to the computer system a while back, if that was indeed you.

I suppose I may come across that way to you, and likely to others that have been around here for a long time and are likely in the "old crew" bucket. But I also suspect that's not the observation many other newer TUG forum members arrive at in comparison. Perhaps that should tell us all something about our perspectives with regard to the TUG Wyndham forum culture at least - and the fact that it is changing. Old vs new. Neither is inherently wrong - but the new will likely outnumber the old over time - and the new perspectives will ultimately therefore win out. My goal is to change the "us vs them" perspective to a "let's work together" perspective - and that is what I am and always will be working toward.

With regard to my comments about Wyndham's leadership and specifically Michael Brown, I've been working in corporate America for 30 years now. Whenever a new CEO is installed - the entire culture of the company changes in the ensuing years. The CEO drives the culture and drives changes within every corporation I've ever worked for - and often those changes are significant in scope - especially given the fact that change rates are accelerating in the modern business world. I also read most of the investor relations materials released by Wyndham - and I attend the quarterly investor relations conference calls during which the CEO makes statements about where T&L is going - such as the recent statements made about subscription models for vacation sales (which another thread on TUG already outlined). It's all out there for anyone to read at any time. Wyndham is a public company and is required to publish the meeting notes and statements made. If you actually go read those statements - nothing I'm saying here is new information to those who want to be informed.

That said, I try to stay informed. Seek first to understand before being understood. Since I've been interacting with several Wyndham execs over the past few years - I've gotten a pretty solid sense of the culture change - both from the new hires to the folks that have been there for quite some time. The culture is changing quite a bit - and it's being driven by the ELT - as is to be expected. That's the benefit of building bridges - you get to truly understand both sides of the equation - and attempt to actually resolve problems and challenges. Those who don't want to make such efforts tend to post their grievances on public forums like TUG - and while I don't personally see this as productive in and of itself - I also need such feedback in order to bring the core complaints to Wyndham in a productive manner.

I've never actually met nor interacted directly with Michael Brown other than via a couple of emails sent to his address - which he actually almost never reads directly himself - he has an entire crew of people who manage his inbox and respond to messages - at least that's my current understanding. Yes - he does read some emails and yes he does respond to some emails - but the majority of his responses - aren't directly written by him. I've had limited interaction with the COO, CSMO, and CBO (listed here: https://investor.travelandleisureco.com/governance/our-leadership/default.aspx) It is a bit unusual for me to interact with the ELT as they are focused largely on strategy whereas most of what I want to focus on is more operational and tactical in nature. Therefore I tend to interact more directly with folks a level or two underneath the ELT that are responsible for various departmental aspects within the Wyndham business. I interact most often with SMEs who have the most knowledge on particular subjects - and this is a growing list of folks over time as we hit on an increasingly larger variety of subject matters for guidance.

Lastly, as @paxsarah said - Richelle and I championed the website fix list back in May 2020 in an effort to help Wyndham improve the website experience. Honestly, we had mixed results from TUG participation - because that's when we learned beyond any shadow of a doubt - that a particularly voal subset of TUG members don't represent the majority. As others have repeatedly said here on this thread - there are many commercial renters here on TUG - most of which aren't posting much of anything - but those who are here and did post on website issues - were asking for functions that Wyndham explicitly removed from the new website - and for reasons that should be increasingly apparent given the recent VIP resale contract changes. Wyndham isn't going to allocate significant resources delivering functionalities that fall into the 1% ownership category - especially if those owner accounts making the ask are facilitating a ton of rental activity. Again, old vs new. The new will win out - it's just a question of when - and its abundantly clear to me at least, that the Wyndham ELT is pushing to eliminate commercial renters from their timeshare business.
 
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HitchHiker71

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You should be compensated. Just my opinion.

If offered something free and clear - I would consider any such offer - with the clear understanding that there is zero quid pro quo. Again, any/all expectations are simply premeditated resentments.
 

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My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points. They were treated as platinum. It's how it was, and they are ending it. Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently? We didn't. Salespeople sold it that way to some. I didn't get sold with that benefit in mind. Anyone who added resale points after a VIP purchase could figure it out. It was obvious.

For those who don't know the past and how easy it was to get platinum, I know people who bought Wyndham points resale and called Wyndham corporate, paid $2,500 and converted all of their resale points (at once) to platinum. This was discussed on TUG many times. I was so surprised that one guy who did that just gave his 1,000,000+ points back to Wyndham because RCI no longer offered 2 bedroom units at DVC and he needed those 2 bedroom units. He is a friend of mine, so I know that one specifically.

I also know of a TUG member who went to Fairfield Bay and bought 1 million points for $10,000. I don't think he actually went to Fairfield Bay, but he called and did it over the phone.

So things have changed and have gotten much more expensive, but another downturn in the economy could bring some deals to those willing to pay for it.

Wish that was somehow possible today - I'd love to get back to VIPP - the best option I've found is either via piggyback contracts, foreclosure contracts, or via account merges. Outside of those options - I haven't been successful in my continuing search to find any other loophole in the current system. IME, all of the loopholes that you mention - were closed up in 2018 timeframe after the new CEO was at the helm. That could just be coincidental timing - but I'm not generally someone who believes in coincidence. Is Fairfield Bay different than Fairfield Glade? Because IIRC Fairfield glade is one of the four locations that sold piggyback contracts - so I wonder if that $10,000 1mm points item you refer to was actually a piggyback contract purchase. Wyndham has since put much more stringent restrictions on piggyback contract sales - starting with a 1:1 retail piggyback points sale requirement. I've heard the 1:1 requirement is sometimes negotiable - especially in times past prior to 2017 - but I've not heard of anyone after 2017 that has found this to be the case. I spent some time interacting with one of the sales leaders down in Edisto Island - another piggyback contract sales location - but couldn't find a deal that I felt was worthwhile since the ROI was way too far out on the timescale.

Specific to your statement about economic downturns - was anyone able to source a deal with Wyndham during the pandemic that is noteworthy?
 
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rickandcindy23

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Wish that was somehow possible today - I'd love to get back to VIPP - the best option I've found is either via piggyback contracts, foreclosure contracts, or via account merges. Outside of those options - I haven't been successful in my continuing search to find any other loophole in the current system. IME, all of the loopholes that you mention - were closed up in 2018 timeframe after the new CEO was at the helm. That could just be coincidental timing - but I'm not generally someone who believes in coincidence. Is Fairfield Bay different than Fairfield Glade? Because IIRC Fairfield glade is one of the four locations that sold piggyback contracts - so I wonder if that $10,000 1mm points item you refer to was actually a piggyback contract purchase. Wyndham has since put much more stringent restrictions on piggyback contract sales - starting with a 1:1 retail:piggyback points sale requirement. I've heard that requuirement is sometimes negotiable - especially in times past prior to 2017 - but I've not heard of anyone after 2017 that has found this to be the case.

Specific to your statement about economic downturns - was anyone able to source a deal with Wyndham during the pandemic that is noteworthy?
Economic downturns seem to be when the stock market tanks, real estate loses substantial value, the interest rates go up sharply, and of course the country's mood changes to grim. That is when we saw Platinum accounts so cheap to get.
 

Ty1on

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My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points. They were treated as platinum. It's how it was, and they are ending it. Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently? We didn't. Salespeople sold it that way to some. I didn't get sold with that benefit in mind. Anyone who added resale points after a VIP purchase could figure it out. It was obvious.

For those who don't know the past and how easy it was to get platinum, I know people who bought Wyndham points resale and called Wyndham corporate, paid $2,500 and converted all of their resale points (at once) to platinum. This was discussed on TUG many times. I was so surprised that one guy who did that just gave his 1,000,000+ points back to Wyndham because RCI no longer offered 2 bedroom units at DVC and he needed those 2 bedroom units. He is a friend of mine, so I know that one specifically.

I also know of a TUG member who went to Fairfield Bay and bought 1 million points for $10,000. I don't think he actually went to Fairfield Bay, but he called and did it over the phone.

So things have changed and have gotten much more expensive, but another downturn in the economy could bring some deals to those willing to pay for it.

In fairness, I don't think you're really (or at least should be) the target of the criticism. There are people leveraging 20M+ points with a million point developer contract to get them to VIPP. There have been people who have had multiple accounts like this, for example leveraging 80M points with 4-5M retail points. You have some retail points in your account that you couldn't help being treated like VIP points. Others have gone out and acquired tens of millions of points to operate as a business. That's a choice they made which was outside the letter of Club Wyndham rules. Do I defend them because they were only exploiting Wyndham's own hole and because weasels were coaching them to do it? I do, but I can't bring myself to view them as innocent victims of Wyndham's inefficiencies, either.
 

troy12n

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Is Fairfield Bay different than Fairfield Glade? Because IIRC Fairfield glade is one of the four locations that sold piggyback contracts

Yes, Fairfield Glade is in Tennessee inbetween Knoxville and Nashville off of I-40, Fairfield Bay is somewhere in BFE Arkansas (i've never been).

Fairfield Bay is the first, original Fairfield timeshare development, built in the late 70's I believe. Fairfield Glade is I believe the second one. I've been to this one, and if you are a golfer, it's really nice. If you like a quiet place which is low points, and relaxing is your thing, this is a nice place. Not so much if you have young kids or teens, they will be bored out of their mind. I have no desire to ever visit Fairfield Bay. I hear both locations, for whatever reason, have higher than expected MF... probably because of abandonment of deeds/foreclosures.
 

rapmarks

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Yes, Fairfield Glade is in Tennessee inbetween Knoxville and Nashville off of I-40, Fairfield Bay is somewhere in BFE Arkansas (i've never been).

Fairfield Bay is the first, original Fairfield timeshare development, built in the late 70's I believe. Fairfield Glade is I believe the second one. I've been to this one, and if you are a golfer, it's really nice. If you like a quiet place which is low points, and relaxing is your thing, this is a nice place. Not so much if you have young kids or teens, they will be bored out of their mind. I have no desire to ever visit Fairfield Bay. I hear both locations, for whatever reason, have higher than expected MF... probably because of abandonment of deeds/foreclosures.
Fairfield Bay, our first exchange with two 15 year old girls. Drove over an hour from nearest highway, basically in middle of nowhere , no television in guest bedroom, weather terrible, girls were miserable until a 16 year old boy was discovered, never go back. Fairfield glade in pretty area of Tennessee and some nice things to do in the area, plus wonderful for golfers. Both resorts limited free use of pool, charged to use outdoor pools.
 
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