California shakes up auto industry, says all vans and trucks must be electric by 2024

[Blues]

But the electric cars also only convert 40-50% of the electricity to energy so when you combine the efficiency of the power plant, the transmission losses and the efficiency of the electric car, you are not better off than the efficiency of a gas car.

I didn't see anything in your reference on the efficiency of EV's. Perhaps I perused it too fast. Wikipedia says "electric vehicles have efficiencies of 69% to 72%." But yes, there are some conversion inefficiencies there, too.

 

[klpca]

My condo complex has open parking. No garages, no carports. Same situation for most of the complexes around here.

Not so much apartment complexes, but "carports" (I have no idea what they are actually called) are being added in commercial locations to provide a surface for solar. A local high school near my office put in solar arrays to cover a good part of one of their parking lots. Here's an article that I found about it. Pretty interesting, really and there is a photo showing the arrays. http://www.sdgenews.com/article/spo...-honoree-grossmont-union-high-school-district They also did this at one of the large parking lots next to the airport but they changed it to employee parking so sadly we don't get to park in the shade any more when we travel.

I see that you live in the Chicago area. I am not familiar with your location but it seems as if solar would not make the same sense in your area as it does out here where it's a no brainer. The break even point on our system was just under 6 years because our traditional energy costs were just that high. We installed the system in early 2016 so we are getting close. (Actually we installed an air conditioner at the same time - we had suffered long enough without one - so we probably already crossed the break even point). We own our system and put it in to control our utility costs in retirement. We have also changed all of our outdoor irrigation to drip systems and drought tolerant landscaping for the same reason. Every appliance that uses water has also been upgraded to a low water usage model and even our toilets are water efficient, lol. Because of limited water and high cost, water conservation is a way of life in our state. While I do believe in being environmentally conscious, these changes are also very helpful for budgeting going forward. I am thankful that technology exists to make this possible.

 

[Yellowfin]

I didn't see anything in your reference on the efficiency of EV's. Perhaps I perused it too fast. Wikipedia says "electric vehicles have efficiencies of 69% to 72%." But yes, there are some conversion inefficiencies there, too.

I stand corrected, it seems the electric car efficiency is indeed around 70%

So you have to take into consideration the following factors:
-the electric cars have a 70% efficiency

- when you charge your battery you lose about 10% energy (according to Tesla owners)

How many KW to charge a tesla. | Tesla

I'm trying to figure out how much capacity the batteries have on the Model S 85 KWh battery. Wasn't sure if I could take the range -- figure it's going 55 MPH and then multiply by 85? Reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to figure out, based on my electric companies rates, how much it will...

forums.tesla.com

- about 6% is lost between the power plant and the house

Lost In Transmission: How Much Electricity Disappears Between A Power Plant And Your Plug?

How much energy is lost along the way as electricity travels from a power plant to the plug in your home? This question comes from Jim Barlow, a Wyoming architect, through our IE Questions project. To find the answer, we need to break it out step by step: first turning raw materials into...

insideenergy.org

-the power plants are about 40% efficient

Combined efficiency about 23%. So 77% of the energy is still wasted. I have to point out, as some mentioned here, in colder weather the millage you get on a full charge can be as little as 50% of the one stated by the manufacturer and the overall efficiency goes down to about 11.5%.





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[Big Matt]

I suggest that new exchangeable battery technology will be a result of this. If you could simply swap out a battery at a (gas) station with a universal connector that would be a start. There would need to be attendants or some sort of robotic capability due to the weight of the cells, but it could work. I really believe that's where we will end up.

 

[Yellowfin]

I suggest that new exchangeable battery technology will be a result of this. If you could simply swap out a battery at a (gas) station with a universal connector that would be a start. There would need to be attendants or some sort of robotic capability due to the weight of the cells, but it could work. I really believe that's where we will end up.

either that or the new batteries will have extended range, charge faster, they will be lighter and cheaper. I read that we may have them in 2-5 years, fingers crossed.

 

[Passepartout]

I suggest that new exchangeable battery technology will be a result of this. If you could simply swap out a battery at a (gas) station with a universal connector that would be a start.

You're dreaming. This would require some sort of standardization. Since auto storage batteries are large and heavy, they are integrated under the floor and contribute to handling characteristics of the vehicles. Auto makers can't even make standardized headlights. As to having to have different batteries for different vehicles, already there are at least 3 different connectors between charging stations and the vehicles being charged. There are 'adapters', but currently they cost $hundreds. Our Honda (and many others) use a J1772 connecter, Tesla has their proprietary plug, and Nissan (and others use a still different plug. It reminds me of the old Betamax vs. VHS videotape 'wars'.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I suggest that new exchangeable battery technology will be a result of this. If you could simply swap out a battery at a (gas) station with a universal connector that would be a start. There would need to be attendants or some sort of robotic capability due to the weight of the cells, but it could work. I really believe that's where we will end up.

I like this idea if they cannot get battery storage and range solved. Kind of like those full BBQ propane tanks you exchange at the hardware store.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

We have also changed all of our outdoor irrigation to drip systems and drought tolerant landscaping for the same reason. Every appliance that uses water has also been upgraded to a low water usage model and even our toilets are water efficient, lol. Because of limited water and high cost, water conservation is a way of life in our state. While I do believe in being environmentally conscious, these changes are also very helpful for budgeting going forward. I am thankful that technology exists to make this possible.

Water has become costly in Calif! We have also transitioned to low flush toilets (our water company replaced them for free) and installed some drought tolerant planting and drip. However our dog tore out the drip system within a week of installation so we are back to spray (sigh). I dream about removing much of our lawn and "going Arizona" landscaping with river rock.

We also added water barrels to our downspouts like below and save about 700 gallons of water for plants a year. Would love a grey water system for sprinkler system but that would be a major endeavor.

 

[turkel]

Another example of how California thinks it can save the world.

Wish we could stop and look at the consequences before we leap. California is regulating itself to death. IMHO

 

[sdbrier]

"Under guidelines approved Thursday, at least 40 percent of the tractor trailers sold in California would have to be powered by some form of zero-emissions technology by 2024."

Just means that those that can't afford to go electric will just buy their trucks/vans in other states. Electric is where the industry is headed, but the infrastructure to support it won't be in place by 2024. My grand kids most likely won't know what terms like "carburetor" or "fuel injection", and I'll have to relearn everything I know about cars. Actually, I think it's a good thing.

Zero emissions. Have you seen a lithium strip mine where they get all that wonderful stuff for Batteries?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I do agree that some actions in California regulation are overreach For example, AB 5 which strangles independent consultants, translators and gig worker small businesses should be repealed.

However, I like that California is not being led by the nose by Big Oil interests and is taking measures to become more sustainable. Every time I look off the beautiful beach at Long Beach I see those ugly oil rigs. And let's not forget the vast damage caused by Exxon Valdez and Deepwater. Solar is a feasible solution for sunbelt states and the technology is improving exponentially.

Germany has also taken measures to adopt renewable and despite not having sunshine like Calif, they are realizing good results with their programs:

Germany Could Be a Model for How We’ll Get Power in the Future

The European nation’s energy revolution has made it a leader in replacing nukes and fossil fuels with wind and solar technology.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[x3 skier]

Seems everything I buy has a warning that California has determined it MAY cause cancer. Surprised they don’t announce every morning on all broadcast and social media platforms, the sun will rise and it CAN cause skin cancer

Cheers

 

[CanuckTravlr]

California is not the only jurisdiction with a focus on moving to cleaner energy. The approaches may be different in different jurisdictions, but the goals are similar. As in Europe, here in Canada we are also making strides in reducing dependence on fossil fuels for electricity. That is despite being a major producer of oil and gas, just like the USA.

In Ontario we closed our last coal-fired generating plant in 2014, and were the first jurisdiction in North America to eliminate coal-fired electricity generation. In the last few years, even the last few plants were only used in case of excessive demand in mid-winter or mid-summer, until there was sufficient excess capacity in the system from cleaner sources. As per figure 2 in the accompanying link, in 2018 only 4% of electricity generation in Ontario came from fossil fuels.

However, that is not the total picture, since that only represents electricity generation. Electricity only represents about 16% of total energy consumption in Ontario as shown in figure 7. Refined petroleum products, such as gasoline, represent 48% of all energy consumption. Another 28% comes from natural gas. Natural gas will not likely go away anytime soon, since most homes are now heated by natural gas.

So is there room for improvement? Yes, but IMO increased rapid transit infrastructure will be much more efficient than just relying on EVs, due to the size of Ontario. About 9.5 million people, or 65% of Ontario's population, live in the "Golden Horseshoe" region between Niagara Falls and the Greater Toronto Area. The Windsor/Detroit to Quebec border transit corridor is also a good candidate for those types of initiatives. That is where the 80/20 rule can be applied. But other than the GTA, we do not have California's density to make reliance on EVs that practical, for all of the reasons I pointed out in my previous posts.

CER – Provincial and Territorial Energy Profiles - Ontario

Provincial and Territorial Energy Profiles – Ontario

www.cer-rec.gc.ca

 

[Chrisky]

I appreciate all the comments on this thread. The one comment I have not read about is that the more we transition away from ICE vehicles to electric vehicles our air quality improves. Do not ask me to quote statistics about that. But I am sure everyone has seen pictures of cities that show (because of the decreased use of vehicles, and yes some industries that have scaled back) their air quality has greatly improved.
That is very important to me.

 

[Big Matt]

You're dreaming. This would require some sort of standardization. Since auto storage batteries are large and heavy, they are integrated under the floor and contribute to handling characteristics of the vehicles. Auto makers can't even make standardized headlights. As to having to have different batteries for different vehicles, already there are at least 3 different connectors between charging stations and the vehicles being charged. There are 'adapters', but currently they cost $hundreds. Our Honda (and many others) use a J1772 connecter, Tesla has their proprietary plug, and Nissan (and others use a still different plug. It reminds me of the old Betamax vs. VHS videotape 'wars'.

I'm not dreaming. It may take a while, but a universal battery is the only real answer. Think propane tanks, light bulbs, power outlets, etc.. It doesn't take much to standardize the connection. The problem with the current situation is charging, not the battery life. Even if there were charging stations everywhere you have to wait a long time for the charge. We need warehouses where the batteries are charged and distribution centers to swap them out. You could drive up to the distribution center and have one or more batteries swapped out in minutes. The weight is why I mentioned robotic. You are correct that everyone would be required to have a storage space as part of the vehicle that would house the batteries, but you can do that without a lot of trouble.

We also have to stop thinking about how cars are propelled now (transmissions, etc.). I think cars of the future will be very light weight with more sensing technologies and speed controlled by the car and not the driver. I'm not a big fan of driverless cars, but you can't rule it out. We have only about 100 years of history with automobiles as something everyone owns. The last five years is when we started with the new modern sensing controls and cameras in every car class. I suggest that they will be far more advanced in 10 years from now.

 

[Passepartout]

I'm not dreaming. It may take a while, but a universal battery is the only real answer. Think propane tanks, light bulbs, power outlets, etc.. It doesn't take much to standardize the connection. The problem with the current situation is charging, not the battery life. Even if there were charging stations everywhere you have to wait a long time for the charge. We need warehouses where the batteries are charged and distribution centers to swap them out. You could drive up to the distribution center and have one or more batteries swapped out in minutes. The weight is why I mentioned robotic. You are correct that everyone would be required to have a storage space as part of the vehicle that would house the batteries, but you can do that without a lot of trouble.

We also have to stop thinking about how cars are propelled now (transmissions, etc.). I think cars of the future will be very light weight with more sensing technologies and speed controlled by the car and not the driver. I'm not a big fan of driverless cars, but you can't rule it out. We have only about 100 years of history with automobiles as something everyone owns. The last five years is when we started with the new modern sensing controls and cameras in every car class. I suggest that they will be far more advanced in 10 years from now.

I know you are sincere, but not in line with current thinking. There is no standardization in propane tanks, light bulbs or power outlet(s) or their connections. In electric vehicles, the batteries are integral to the vehicle. It's done for weight management, strength and stiffness of the frame, as well as distribution both form the charging system and to the motive bits.

Yes, fork lift trucks use more-or-less standard giant lead-acid batteries, but vehicles used on public roads will have to conform to DOT regulations regarding safety, fire control etc. Lithium Ion batteries already have to be removeable from devices in order to fly.

Many electric vehicles don't have (or need) conventional transmissions, drive shafts and the like. The Rivian pickup announced last week has instead 4 individual hub motors in each wheel so that differing amounts of torque can be delivered to each tire, depending on it's level of traction. 600 horsepower of addressable torque. Toyota Priuses don't have a reverse gear in their transmission. The electric motor just turns the other direction. It doesn't care which way it turns.

Technology will indeed be different as time goes on. Hopefully some new power storage technology will emerge that is lighter, more dense, charges more quickly, costs less and is cleaner in the environment. So far Lithium Ion is pretty much the state-of-the-art, but lots of very smart people are working on it.

I think there will be a different mind set. Instead of buying a vehicle based on that once-or twice a year long road trip, buy one that handles your day-to-day needs for your commute or 'usual and customary' running around, and then rent an ICE luxury vehicle for those long trips. Maybe even imagine a world where luxurious, very fast and clean trains cross long distances in quiet, safe comfort. Makes more sense to me than finding a garage where some technician swaps out the battery I've paid many 10's of thou$and$ for for a battery of unknown provenance. No brainer here.

Jim

 

[Big Matt]

Jim, I think you are talking about today, and I'm talking about tomorrow. I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My point is that technology is allowing for rapid innovation. 30 years ago we didn't have bluetooth. That changed everything in terms of universal connectivity. I believe that what I'm saying will occur in my lifetime. The reason I think I'm right is because of all the advances in battery technology for power tools, lawn mowers, etc. I do agree that none of them are standardized, but concept makes a lot of sense to me, and I do think that smart people are going to find ways to make them lighter. My guess is that Tesla will eventually work this out and dominate the batter business.

 

[Tia]

It must be above somewhere, Where our electric comes from-

''Many renewable energy sources are used to generate electricity and were the source of about 17% of total U.S. electricity generation in 2019 ''

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.

www.eia.gov

.

 

[Country Roads]

Seems everything I buy has a warning that California has determined it MAY cause cancer. Surprised they don’t announce every morning on all broadcast and social media platforms, the sun will rise and it CAN cause skin cancer

Cheers

California Independence Referendum in 2021 Initiative (2020)

"Do you want California to be an independent country in the form of a republic?"

California Independence Referendum in 2021 Initiative (2020)

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

Perhaps it's an idea whose time has come. Let's get it back on the ballot for an election on May 4, 2021.

With all the nonsense of Washington D.C. wanting to become a state, should we vote and constitutionally permit California to secede from the United States of America? Many
residents, but not all mind you, do have unique, for lack of a better word, way of choosing to live. The costs saved in order to not change the stars on the flag would be tremendous.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

So there should be a healthy California demand for used pre 2024 fossil fuel vehicles beginning in 2024 for those unwilling or unable to make the switch...........



.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@CountryRoads I see you recently joined Tug conversations a little over a month ago. If you are a timeshare owner or interested in timeshares, welcome! Recommend joining TUG for $15 a year because it is well worth it. (It also helps to boost your credibility score.)

We've discussed California in the past and a referendum was launched by Russian trolls a few years ago. How do we know this one isn't the same thing?

FWIW, there is no way the U.S. would vote for such an item for two reasons:

1) California alone is the fifth largest economy in the world if it were a nation-state. Bigger than Russia, Canada, France, or the U.K. The U.S. would diminish significantly in GDP power and economic viability significantly with the loss in agriculture, tech, movies and biotech industries. Big loss in negotiating power on the world stage. Big loss in population to sign up for the military to defend the nation.

2) California is a net contributor tax-wise to the nation. How would the Federal Government make up for this loss in revenue to support other states that are net-users that depend on money from the U.S. Govt?

Wash D.C. would not come anywhere close to making up the shortfall for #1 and #2 above. California would do fine on its own but it would not be in the best interests of the U.S.

California's economy is now the 5th-biggest in the world, and has overtaken the United Kingdom

California's economy grew to $2.747 trillion in 2017, eclipsing the United Kingdom's $2.625 trillion figure and leaving it effectively sixth on the world stage, according to data from the US Department of Commerce.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Country Roads]

@CountryRoads I see you recently joined Tug conversations a little over a month ago. If you are a timeshare owner or interested in timeshares, welcome! Recommend joining TUG for $15 a month because it is well worth it. (It also helps to boost your credibility score.)

We've discussed California in the past and a referendum was launched by Russian trolls a few years ago. How do we know this one isn't the same thing?

FWIW, there is no way the U.S. would vote for such an item for two reasons:

1) California alone is the fifth largest economy in the world if it were a nation-state. Bigger than Russia, Canada, France, or the U.K. The U.S. would diminish significantly in GDP power and economic viability significantly with the loss in agriculture, tech, movies and biotech industries. Big loss in negotiating power on the world stage. Big loss in population to sign up for the military to defend the nation.

2) California is a net contributor tax-wise to the nation. How would the Federal Government make up for this loss in revenue to support other states that are net-users that depend on money from the U.S. Govt?

Wash D.C. would not come anywhere close to making up the shortfall for #1 and #2 above. California would do fine on its own but it would not be in the best interests of the U.S.

California's economy is now the 5th-biggest in the world, and has overtaken the United Kingdom

California's economy grew to $2.747 trillion in 2017, eclipsing the United Kingdom's $2.625 trillion figure and leaving it effectively sixth on the world stage, according to data from the US Department of Commerce.

www.businessinsider.com

Certainly all valid points which should be taken into consideration.

As for being a "guest", I would guess the same could be said about anyone posting and I agree with you, all guests should be encouraged to join. I often wondered why the ones who have several thousands of postings, over many years, haven't done just that. I will ask though, is there a particular number of postings that will result in a boost to this "credibility score"?

Perhaps I should have made a note that the "Ballot" was no longer valid. I simply included it because this exact issue has been raised by some residents of California themselves in the past and like you, I also believe it could never happen. Of course whether it should, is an entirely different discussion in itself. Also, I had no idea that the site had a problem with "Russian Trolls" and you're correct, how do we know? Any link followed can lead to problems regardless of it's wording. For me, if I have any questions about a link or suspect trouble upon opening it, I simply avoid it.

My apologies and I will be sure to place a "sarcastic" warning in the future.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@Country Roads Thanks for your understanding. Your points are well taken. Welcome to TUG!

Not sure who are the guests you refer to who post for many years. Perhaps they have handles we now recognize and know they are legit? For someone just joining the the conversation on a topic not specifically pertaining to timeshares, joining TUG is one measure for the community to help ensure that the person is real and not just some random troll pushing an agenda. We live in interesting times.

Please continue to join in the conversation. TUGgers are like family members who don't always agree, but we still respect each other at the end of the day. Welcome!

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Correction...TUG is only $15 a year not a month. I corrected my prior post.

 

[VegasBella]

And what about people who live in condos and apartment buildings and have no place to plug in a car?

California, in general, has more protections for renters and condo owners than many other states. When it comes to this issue, California made it a law that if a tennant wants to install an electric vehicle charging station then they can do that. They do not need the landlord's approval. Here are the details that came out in 2014, ten years prior to when this new law is suppose to occur: https://www.greencarreports.com/new...an-now-install-electric-car-charging-stations

When it comes to efficiency there are lots of variables but the simple fact is that electricity can be produced from a wide variety of sources. It can be from solar panels or wind farms or coal burning or nuclear or dams etc... this is truly the future regardless of he obvious improvements in air quality from electric cars. We need more ways to power our vehicles because it allows for more energy independence and it lets communities determine what power sources will work best for them. ICE vehicles run on petroleum and only that. It's unsustainable and too dependent on federal and foreign governments. The move to electric is also California determining it's own destiny and relying less on oil states/nations.

I also want to point out that EVs don't use motor oil. That fact seems to be overlooked in many anti-EV 'equations' about fuel efficiency.
Also, EVs use very minimal power while idling at stoplights, drive-thrus, etc. Stats that look at distances driven and compare energy used often don't factor in all the real ways we use our cars.

There are other side benefits to EVs too for instance it's not possible to get carbon monoxide poisoning from an electric car. So, for instance, I don't have to open my garage to pre-condition my car. It's safer from poisoning and safer from the theft.