Grandview at Las Vegas: Deedback, Give away or stop paying MF ?

[jabberwocky]

Interesting point about MF. I never thought of it that way. I just could never get around the idea that a 600 sf plus condo costs 1 k or more a week to maintain. Even factoring in your share of the common areas (1/52 of 1 unit/all units). I know resorts cost money to maintain the pool and front of house but still can’t believe it’s 1K a week or more.

I suppose I can’t get around the term “maintenance” fee. When I think maintenance, I think painting, cleaning, repairing and sometimes replacing. I don’t think profits. Whenever I go to a timeshare, I just don’t see 50 k a year plus per unit in work.

The MF that really has my head spinning are some resorts in Maui charging 3 k a week “maintenance”. Some argue that’s cheap compared to what the cost would be renting. I’m thinking, why the hell would I pay more than 200 bucks a night? And I can get a nice condo in Maui for that with no problem.

I suppose as long as my head spins on MF, I will probably stay renting. Those nightly numbers just make sense to me I suppose.

Renting and exchanging can work for a subset of timeshare users - especially those that have the luxury of not being tied to school schedules, work commitments and don't mind the quality/space of accommodations. For those of us not lucky enough to meet those criteria, TS ownership is a more cost effective model.

I've just tried a search for an upcoming vacation on AirBnB using the exact same dates as I currently have booked at WKORV-N in late-June/Early July (14 days total). The cheapest AirBnB comes in at $246/night and then you have to add on service fees, cleaning fees, occupancy taxes etc. This rental is listed as being able to accommodate 6 people; however, it is only 600+ square feet and isn't an oceanfront resort. Just about everything else that is even remotely comparable to what we have booked is around $650+/night minimum.

In contrast if we were using our ownership week our cost would be around $2800/week or around $400/night (our upcoming stay is actually via StarOptions for which we are paying around $283/night). With this we get a 2BR lock-off unit with over 1200 square feet of space, a well maintained pool, professional housekeeping, security, fitness facilities, free transportation shuttle into town, valet parking (first night free, additional charge thereafter), concierge service etc. Best of all we can be in the ocean three minutes after leaving our unit. Keep in mind that if Maui didn't tax the hell out of TS owners relative to residential properties the costs would be greatly lower (we will end up paying $480 in a variety of taxes for that week, not including the TAT paid at the end of stay).

The other thing is that comparing a commercial quality resort to what are sometimes residential quality accommodations is not even close. The standards I feel are much higher in terms of fixtures, HVAC and power systems, landscaping and the replacement frequency of items is much higher (beds, kitchenware etc.). Does it all add up to $2800 to maintain in a week? Probably not - but the experience dollar-to-dollar is superior to renting IMO.

 

[Iggyearl]

I guess in my case I just hate contracts and Long term commitments.

I was "partners" with a lawyer once - for 10 years. One of his favorite quotes was, "Make all your promises verbally, and get all your promises in writing." The timeshare industry seems to have perfected that model. I don't like the fact that the developers can change the terms of the contract, but the customer can't get out easily.

 

[Fredflintstone]

I was "partners" with a lawyer once - for 10 years. One of his favorite quotes was, "Make all your promises verbally, and get all your promises in writing." The timeshare industry seems to have perfected that model. I don't like the fact that the developers can change the terms of the contract, but the customer can't get out easily.

precisely. Bravo!


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[Fredflintstone]

Again, I find I am the minority here on this point. I still believe it should be legislated that timeshare transactions must be concluded through a buyer and seller lawyer. Let’s face it. Most folks are in a great mood when they are approached for a sales presentation as they are on vacation. I suspect many do not read the contract they are signing thoroughly enough. They do not ensure all promises made are added to the contract. Afterwards, I think many of them complete their vacation without reading thus letting the recession period expire. I have found most presentations try to be booked the day after check in. That’s why the parking pass attendant grabs them right after check in. The signing usually occurs in some sales room back office.

Once these folks realize what they had done, they have second thoughts after recession.

Then they believe they were taken. Yet, they have not as it was they who signed the contract. That is where I back up the developer/resort. Every contract I have seen has placed, above signatures, in huge bold letters the buyers recession rights.

Requiring real estate buyer and seller lawyers to complete the transaction better ensures the buyer knows what they are buying. On the sellers side, this added step solidifies that every step was taken to ensure the buyer was not misrepresented. In essence, by doing this, developers can better defend allegations of misrepresentation and fraud in my view.




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[CalGalTraveler]

You are right. Renting has its down sides too and yes there is no free lunch.

I have always respected those who choose timeshare ownership. Different strokes for different folks. Your views are shared by many. I guess in my case I just hate contracts and Long term commitments.

And yes, any economy change will tilt factors quite a bit. I saw that in 2009.




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I am in business so it risk/reward. We bought resale so our total all in is $12k so not much at risk compared to those who purchased developer at $60k. $12k plus annual MF EOY still doesn't add up to much and won't bankrupt us. There is a limit to the exposure. Some people are extremely risk-averse or have less financial security and that decision is fine. Different strokes.

In the case of our Westin Maui Oceanfront what's so bad about being chained to use my oceanfront timeshare every other year? Poor me! LOL I have to sit on that lanai, look at the ocean and drink mai tais for 1-2 weeks EOY. I can think of a lot worse scenarios. I can also lockoff to rent out half to pay for the entire maint fee. Free vacations...If I cannot use I can rent and make money...risk/reward

 

[Fredflintstone]

I am in business so it risk/reward. This is something that won't bankrupt us. I am willing to take a risk if the opportunity is commensurate. Some people are extremely risk-averse and that's fine.

In the case of our Maui Oceanfront what's so bad about being chained to use my oceanfront timeshare every other year? I can think of a lot worse scenarios. I can also lockoff to rent out half to pay for the entire maint fee. Free vacations...

No, I think you buying a timeshare is fine. You are a clever adult and certainly have the right to make your own decisions. If your timeshare purchase works for you, I am very happy for you.

My opinion is I don’t like being tied to a contract that I believe is tilted towards the rights of the developer/resort. I don’t like the language in the contract. So, I would never sign it. Yes, many timeshares are beautiful places. Yes, most times, you are staying in 5 star resorts. Yes, I know many folks very happy with their timeshare purchases. Yes, I hear many folks stating they think their fees are a bargain and timesharing enhances their lives. For that, I am happy for them. It’s just not for me because of the contract. I personally see the contract as too one sided and more binding than I care to commit to.




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[CalGalTraveler]

No, I think you buying a timeshare is fine. You are a clever adult and certainly have the right to make your own decisions. If your timeshare purchase works for you, I am very happy for you.

My opinion is I don’t like being tied to a contract that I believe is tilted towards the rights of the developer/resort. I don’t like the language in the contract. So, I would never sign it. Yes, many timeshares are beautiful places. Yes, most times, you are staying in 5 star resorts. Yes, I know many folks very happy with their timeshare purchases. Yes, I hear many folks stating they think their fees are a bargain and timesharing enhances their lives. For that, I am happy for them. It’s just not for me because of the contract. I personally see the contract as too one sided and more binding than I care to commit to.




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+1 You have been burned by TS which likely affects your perception. I agree that the contracts are one-sided. However this is no different than my credit cards, our U.S. health care plan contract, or any other purchase from a major corporation. Because of your helpful perspective I also plan to use renting to augment our timeshares rather than purchasing more because of the one-sided nature of the contracts. I probably won't buy again, unless there is a stellar risk/reward opportunity.

I like the notion of both renting and timesharing in specific opportunities to put a cap on our risk. I see this as similar to investing in a start-up, real estate flip or risky stock. If you keep your investment to a small level such that if you lose everything it's not enough to affect your livelihood, and choose wisely, you increase your portfolio returns.

 

[Fredflintstone]

+1 You have been burned by TS which likely affects your perception. I agree that the contracts are one-sided. However this is no different than my credit cards, our U.S. health care plan contract, or any other purchase from a major corporation. Because of your helpful perspective I also plan to use renting to augment our timeshares rather than purchasing more because of the one-sided nature of the contracts. I probably won't buy again, unless there was a stellar risk/reward opportunity.

I like the notion of both renting and timesharing in specific opportunities to put a cap on our risk. I see this as similar to investing in a start-up, real estate flip or risky stock. If you keep your investment to a small level and choose wisely, you can do well.

Yes, that seems like a good plan. You are right, I had a bad taste in my mouth when I had to unload the timeshares. I found it difficult and frustrating. I didn’t find resorts helpful at all. However, that is my experience.

I know you have had some bad experiences renting. I suppose I have been very fortunate in that realm. Mind you, I stick with certain sites and places to mitigate risk. I have found a myriad of small companies like Mauirental.com offer nice places consistently. I have also had great luck with the TUG rental system too. Yes, I have been taken once or twice on Airbnb. I would say 2 out of 124 rentals. And the 2 I had, I complained to Airbnb and those accommodations were banned. In one case, Airbnb refunded my entire purchase.

I have found renting on tug great. I feel sometimes I am spoiled with the beautiful timeshare I rented. And I met some wonderful tuggers to boot.

If I ever was to buy a timeshare interval, I have learned to always buy in a non judicial, anti deficiency state, spend more upfront and get a timeshare that is in demand and holds some value and be in an area I want to be. I think my mistake before was I bought purely for exchange and looked for the bucker ones.


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[Braindead]

Hi George. Be careful encouraging others not to pay MF. @Braindead will accuse you of being solely responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF. Check out the screenshot.

Just a thought. Is that why this person chose the alias “Braindead”? Oops...did I say that.

. Ok, back to my happy space.

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@Braindead You sound like a shill for the developer. i.e. "Let's continue the developer sham of keeping consumers uneducated so they get stuck and continue to pay."

Yes let's keep people clueless and powerless because that always is the best approach...LOL

Sure. There are people who will take advantage of this knowledge to play the system but that's 1% and they don't care and would walk anyway. You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube for these people. They are likely walking away from more obligations than timeshares and don't care.

I am in favor of enabling the 99% who truly need to know their options because they are stuck and life changes happen. They are being lied to and harassed by the developer as to their options to exit. They are being charged unsubstantiated extortion fees to exit after 20 years of dutifully paying. They are elderly or in poor health. They would not have purchased if resale values had been disclosed they had not been lied to, or knew that the developer can change the program rules from the originally agreed upon contract at any time, or that disposing would be so difficult.

The laws for anti-deficiency keeps the developers honest. And let's not kid ourselves. Those units are getting re-rented and their business models are designed so the developers are not losing a dime. They own the mortgages so they can take back the unit efficiently. Little damage here.

Perhaps HOA owners are paying, but if the developer is incented because of anti-deficiency laws to sell to qualified buyers and fully disclose instead of lying and selling to anyone who can fog a mirror, then that is good for the HOA as well. Where is the responsibility of the developer to sell to qualified buyers? Where is the responsibility of the developer to keep to the terms of the original maintenance fee costs and program trading agreement?

Finally, let's not forget the TUG motto: "Truth about timeshares since..." Let's enable owners to know their the truth on exit options. These laws were written because the greed, and excesses of the timeshare developers got out of hand. I wish more states would follow the non-judicial, anti-deficiency models of California, Florida, South Carolina and Maine because the TS companies clearly cannot self-regulate their greed.

It is up to the ethics of each individual and their specific situation to decide based on the information provided.

No TUGers are forcing anyone to do anything. If you believe this info does that, I have a timeshare on swampland in Florida to sell you.

If owners are in financial hardship & literally can’t pay there MFs or loan. The following couple of post serve no purpose.
The only owners that the following posts help are the owners that could & can afford to live upto their financial responsibilities.

A lawyer worth hundreds of thousands of dollars is glad he can walk away from a couple hundred bucks a month in MFs because a couple of his TS are in a anti-deficiency state. That’s the financial class this information is helping. If you can’t pay it doesn’t matter what state you’re in or what it does to your credit score.
Why does TUG think this is good information for the well off that say the hell with it I’m Walking away

 

[Fredflintstone]

If owners are in financial hardship & literally can’t pay there MFs or loan. The following couple of post serve no purpose.
The only owners that the following posts help are the owners that could & can afford to live upto their financial responsibilities.
View attachment 15774View attachment 15778
A lawyer worth hundreds of thousands of dollars is glad he can walk away from a couple hundred bucks a month in MFs because a couple of his TS are in a anti-deficiency state. That’s the financial class this information is good.
Why does TUG think this is good information for the well off that say the hell with Walking away

@Braindead,

Why are you stuck on this? If you read my many posts on the topic, you will find I say the same thing over and over:

1. Do everything possible to sell your timeshare. Repeatly place in Tug, redweek, EBay and others. Offer the timeshare for a dollar, pay transfer fees and even offer a small cash incentive if needed. Try for at least one full year. I have even paid MF ONE YEAR AHEAD to rid myself of one timeshare to ensure the resort is left in good order as the sale was near the end of the year.
2. Negotiate with the resort. Use deed back programs. Offer to pay maintenance ahead and even the cost of deedback.
3. Check state statute. This is your LAST RESORT.

I find it humorous that you take snippets of what people have said and concoct a perception that may or may not be entirely accurate.

Please keep researching the entire context and I am confident you will get the entire picture correctly.




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[Braindead]

I think you are one of two that brought me into this thread

 

[Grammarhero]

If owners are in financial hardship & literally can’t pay there MFs or loan. The following couple of post serve no purpose.
The only owners that the following posts help are the owners that could & can afford to live upto their financial responsibilities.
View attachment 15774View attachment 15778
A lawyer worth hundreds of thousands of dollars is glad he can walk away from a couple hundred bucks a month in MFs because a couple of his TS are in a anti-deficiency state. That’s the financial class this information is helping. If you can’t pay it doesn’t matter what state you’re in or what it does to your credit score.
Why does TUG think this is good information for the well off that say the hell with it I’m Walking away

Flip Flop @Braindead, you are taking things out of context. You already lost all credibility for being a flip-flopper. If Wyndham suspends my booking privileges, of course I’m not paying MF. I’m paying MF if Wyndham does nothing to me.

You are over generalizing folks who don’t pay MF. What about @simpsontruckdriver who went through Great Rescission? What about gochiefsorbust who went through financial difficulties but had to worry about her credit score?

You talk about having an open mind. That is hogwash. You are the most close-minded TUGGER, even more so than @SNA27 who blames liberals for the right of rescission. I’m glad that’s the tug legacy you chose to have, being a very close-minded tugger.

 

[Grammarhero]

If owners are in financial hardship & literally can’t pay there MFs or loan. The following couple of post serve no purpose.
The only owners that the following posts help are the owners that could & can afford to live upto their financial responsibilities.
View attachment 15774View attachment 15778
A lawyer worth hundreds of thousands of dollars is glad he can walk away from a couple hundred bucks a month in MFs because a couple of his TS are in a anti-deficiency state. That’s the financial class this information is helping. If you can’t pay it doesn’t matter what state you’re in or what it does to your credit score.
Why does TUG think this is good information for the well off that say the hell with it I’m Walking away

Actually, it was mainly well-informed, upper middle-class folks who knew about anti-deficiency. Wesley definitely knows about anti-deficiency and profits off that information. The more we can inform folks so that they can stay away from exit companies such as Wesley, the better. If anything, I’m trying to expand that legal information sharing to the less-informed, middle, or lower-middle classes.

Before you judge me further (a potentially fruitless pursuit), I actually saved a TS owner $2k for telling him about Diamond Transitions and its $1k price tag, while Wesley would have charged the same person $3k. Again, more information sharing is generally good for the Byzantine TS industry.

 

[terrygee]

Great thread .. covers so much ground. Thanks to all.

I purchased outright a FW8 studio @Wyndham Elysian Beach which worked well from 2000 to 2016.
The last three years MF's rose quite abruptly from ~$400 to over $1000 and climbing.
In 2008 I became an early and enthusiastic retiree from the great recession and two yrs later moved to SoFla.
Things changed, and soon I no longer was able - or cared - to use my fixed week, tho still able to pay the 'forever' MF's.
So with much angst and after extensive internet research (TUG in particular), I decided to make no effort to transfer, rent, or sell the unit but instead I stopped paying. My decision, no regrets.

I feel absolutely no moral stain, for based upon much reading and actual experience, I feel that the TS industry, in the main, is operating a dis-honorable and shameless scam. I believe they file any lawsuit WITH DIRTY HANDS, so are unfit to claim a grievance in these situations.

So what happened?
I got a few letters... and filed 'em in the garbage.
Got some phone-mail from collection agency... blocked 'em, forgot 'em.
After a year... no nothing.

Credit score before default .. over 800.
Credit score after and four years later.. over 800.
Don't care in any event.

 

[Grammarhero]

Flip Flop @Braindead, what of @Xolodno ? His wife was having expensive medical issues, and he was housing his homeless mom. It’s sad that you labeled him as a well-off guy easily affording MF payments. https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/what-about-foreclosure.292303/#post-2320226

 

[Braindead]

Great thread .. covers so much ground. Thanks to all.

I purchased outright a FW8 studio @Wyndham Elysian Beach which worked well from 2000 to 2016.
The last three years MF's rose quite abruptly from ~$400 to over $1000 and climbing.
In 2008 I became an early and enthusiastic retiree from the great recession and two yrs later moved to SoFla.
Things changed, and soon I no longer was able - or cared - to use my fixed week, tho still able to pay the 'forever' MF's.
So with much angst and after extensive internet research (TUG in particular), I decided to make no effort to transfer, rent, or sell the unit but instead I stopped paying. My decision, no regrets.

I feel absolutely no moral stain, for based upon much reading and actual experience, I feel that the TS industry, in the main, is operating a dis-honorable and shameless scam. I believe they file any lawsuit WITH DIRTY HANDS, so are unfit to claim a grievance in these situations.

So what happened?
I got a few letters... and filed 'em in the garbage.
Got some phone-mail from collection agency... blocked 'em, forgot 'em.
After a year... no nothing.

Credit score before default .. over 800.
Credit score after and four years later.. over 800.
Don't care in any event.

Thank You for the update & being honest on how you came to your decision

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Meh @Braindead is a troll. Not worth responding to. He loves to criticize but fails to offer any reasonable solutions.

 

[bnoble]

They've been on my ignore list for a while now. My life is much more pleasant when I don't allow such people to steal my time and attention.

 

[dgalati]

Great thread .. covers so much ground. Thanks to all.

I purchased outright a FW8 studio @Wyndham Elysian Beach which worked well from 2000 to 2016.
The last three years MF's rose quite abruptly from ~$400 to over $1000 and climbing.
In 2008 I became an early and enthusiastic retiree from the great recession and two yrs later moved to SoFla.
Things changed, and soon I no longer was able - or cared - to use my fixed week, tho still able to pay the 'forever' MF's.
So with much angst and after extensive internet research (TUG in particular), I decided to make no effort to transfer, rent, or sell the unit but instead I stopped paying. My decision, no regrets.

I feel absolutely no moral stain, for based upon much reading and actual experience, I feel that the TS industry, in the main, is operating a dis-honorable and shameless scam. I believe they file any lawsuit WITH DIRTY HANDS, so are unfit to claim a grievance in these situations.

So what happened?
I got a few letters... and filed 'em in the garbage.
Got some phone-mail from collection agency... blocked 'em, forgot 'em.
After a year... no nothing.

Credit score before default .. over 800.
Credit score after and four years later.. over 800.
Don't care in any event.

You hit the nail on the head with this statement. Congrats on exiting on your terms. Tune out the ones that cry ethics and morals while beating the systen using resale points as VIP benefits. Follow your own moral compas.

 

[dgalati]

I have wondered about how “unethical” it is to just stop paying MF’s ever since hearing the president of Wyndham discuss on Mad Money the costs Wyndham incurs when people hand their timeshares back. They accrue for this “bad debt”. It seems that it’s actually a part of Wyndham’s business model. They know they will be getting a lot of their points back, at which point they are responsible for the MF’s. They seem to be totally aware that by doubling their MF’s every 8-10 years, they will get a lot of inventory back.

Its as unethical as selling a timeshare under high pressure, with alot of half truths at a 17% interest rate to someone who can never use more points or afford the payment and maintenance fees. The whole industry is unethical from start to finish. The industry created this issue.

 

[dgalati]

@Braindead You sound like a shill for the developer. i.e. "Let's continue the developer sham of keeping consumers uneducated so they get stuck and continue to pay."

Yes let's keep people clueless and powerless because that always is the best approach...LOL

Sure. There are people who will take advantage of this knowledge to play the system but that's 1% and they don't care and would walk anyway. You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube for these people. They are likely walking away from more obligations than timeshares and don't care.

I am in favor of enabling the 99% who truly need to know their options because they are stuck and life changes happen. They are being lied to and harassed by the developer as to their options to exit. They are being charged unsubstantiated extortion fees to exit after 20 years of dutifully paying. They are elderly or in poor health. They would not have purchased if resale values had been disclosed they had not been lied to, or knew that the developer can change the program rules from the originally agreed upon contract at any time, or that disposing would be so difficult.

The laws for anti-deficiency keeps the developers honest. And let's not kid ourselves. Those units are getting re-rented and their business models are designed so the developers are not losing a dime. They own the mortgages so they can take back the unit efficiently. Little damage here.

Perhaps HOA owners are paying, but if the developer is incented because of anti-deficiency laws to sell to qualified buyers and fully disclose instead of lying and selling to anyone who can fog a mirror, then that is good for the HOA as well. Where is the responsibility of the developer to sell to qualified buyers? Where is the responsibility of the developer to keep to the terms of the original maintenance fee costs and program trading agreement?

Finally, let's not forget the TUG motto: "Truth about timeshares since..." Let's enable owners to know their the truth on exit options. These laws were written because the greed, and excesses of the timeshare developers got out of hand. I wish more states would follow the non-judicial, anti-deficiency models of California, Florida, South Carolina and Maine because the TS companies clearly cannot self-regulate their greed.

It is up to the ethics of each individual and their specific situation to decide based on the information provided.

No TUGers are forcing anyone to do anything. If you believe this info does that, I have a timeshare on swampland in Florida to sell you.

Yes BD turns a blind eye to what the timeshare industry lacks in ethics and morals but will crucify a owner that does what they need to to rid themselves of the burden of paying maintenance fees. Try not to feed into the personal attack on your character that will follow in his rebuttal to you opinion.

 

[dgalati]

What I really like about TUG is that it is one added tool that allows people an option to get out. The bargain bin has been a great resource for many. Even though I don’t own any timeshares and probably never will again is because they can be so hard to get rid of. My experiences have driven me to try to change that through my two cent advocacy. If you read my posts, they always advocate deed backs, sell for a dollar and pay transfer, etc. and yes, use state laws if needed as a last resort. Let’s face it. Life changes. For example, folks who enjoyed their timeshare for many years and now have health challenges and are unable to use it anymore. Many of these folks are on fixed incomes and find the costs seriously harming their budgets. They shouldn’t need to buck up and pay forever and forget to put groceries in the fridge. What they need are kind ways to move on.

On a positive note, I am finally seeing developers understanding the problem and instituting deed back programs. In my mind, they can recover costs through resales and renting out the unit. I am assuming their rental recovery and resale money should offshoot any costs to other owners. Everyone can win with deed backs.

I am hopeful that through changing legislation and developers realizing a sales market developed on their end will increase their reputation holistically, increase timeshare resale values resulting in more folks taking a second look at timeshare.


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Lets make no mistake the Ovations or deed back programs are not there to help exiting owners its because Wyndham needs inventory to sell. Ovations is a lower cost way to add inventory then it was to buy the stripped deeds from Ron P and company. You could compare the 3 years of free use on developer bought deeds to the buying of stipped deeds also. Dont get me wrong Ovations is a good way to exit but many here find it unjust a resale deed back is give current year free use but have no problem with Wyndham giving 3 years free use on developer deeds.

 

[dgalati]

Again, I find I am the minority here on this point. I still believe it should be legislated that timeshare transactions must be concluded through a buyer and seller lawyer. Let’s face it. Most folks are in a great mood when they are approached for a sales presentation as they are on vacation. I suspect many do not read the contract they are signing thoroughly enough. They do not ensure all promises made are added to the contract. Afterwards, I think many of them complete their vacation without reading thus letting the recession period expire. I have found most presentations try to be booked the day after check in. That’s why the parking pass attendant grabs them right after check in. The signing usually occurs in some sales room back office.

Once these folks realize what they had done, they have second thoughts after recession.

Then they believe they were taken. Yet, they have not as it was they who signed the contract. That is where I back up the developer/resort. Every contract I have seen has placed, above signatures, in huge bold letters the buyers recession rights.

Requiring real estate buyer and seller lawyers to complete the transaction better ensures the buyer knows what they are buying. On the sellers side, this added step solidifies that every step was taken to ensure the buyer was not misrepresented. In essence, by doing this, developers can better defend allegations of misrepresentation and fraud in my view.




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I have referred to this as being hoodwinked

 

[dgalati]

Meh @Braindead is a troll. Not worth responding to. He loves to criticize but fails to offer any reasonable solutions.

Believe me when I say this there are many agents of Wyndham trolling the Tug Wyndham board

 

[Fredflintstone]

All I can say is I rent for a reason


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