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it ain't over

ValChatelle44

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Cup you hand up to your ear,

listen, listen closely.

is the fat lady singing?
 

DeniseM

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If you have info to share - please speak plainly.
 

Pathways

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Cup you hand up to your ear,

listen, listen closely.

is the fat lady singing?

I don't think anyone is singing. I'm almost ready to classify this entire forum as a #%*@!! All these posters who have pleaded, argued, pontificated, and strutted their feathers as to how they are 'for the KBV and it's long term success'. Yet it's been three weeks now and no posting yet of who was voted on the board. No blow-by-blow of the get together the day before, the meeting itselt, or the discussion after.

Is it possible that all these posters went to the meeting and never made it home? Should we put out a APB? Again, this silence is deafening....

Other than Jack's brief comments, nothing
 

DeniseM

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Pathways - To my knowledge, the election results have not been released. I just received a KBV newsletter and it wasn't even mentioned. Are you a KBV owner?
 

ecwinch

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I don't think anyone is singing. I'm almost ready to classify this entire forum as a #%*@!! All these posters who have pleaded, argued, pontificated, and strutted their feathers as to how they are 'for the KBV and it's long term success'. Yet it's been three weeks now and no posting yet of who was voted on the board. No blow-by-blow of the get together the day before, the meeting itselt, or the discussion after.

Is it possible that all these posters went to the meeting and never made it home? Should we put out a APB? Again, this silence is deafening....

Other than Jack's brief comments, nothing

I share your frustration with the lack of information in this forum. The only inference I have drawn is that this was more of a passion project of Jack, and his resignation seemingly has put an end to a noble experiment.
 

Pathways

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I just received a KBV newsletter and it wasn't even mentioned

Which is why I brought this up again. Based on the comments from Jeff right up to the day before, I expected a recap from his viewpoint, along with a few others posting to this forum. Comments flew on here unfiltered for some time, why the silence? The election is over, the comments should be even more open now.

Anyone elected to a BOD needs to clam up and put on their BOD faces, I would understand no comments from them. But all others?
 

TUGBrian

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yes, he was def the driving force behind this forum, i hope things change in that regard :(
 

DeniseM

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The only inference I have drawn is that this was more of a passion project of Jack, and his resignation seemingly has put an end to a noble experiment.
Actually, I believe that this forum was officially approved by the KBV Board, so now that Jack is no longer on the BOD, he may be stepping down from the forum - I really don't know.

The election is over, the comments should be even more open now.
I'm not sure it is a done deal - the fact that there has been no announcement of the results is rather odd in itself.
 

jacknsara

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Aloha,

I’m still here. I am aware of some developments. There is nothing I can share yet.

On 5/19/19 Karen Blackford (KYHOME) posted the following election results on Jeff Bellin’s KBVowner yahoo group:

Although Trish Harrington came in 3rd, she was not elected to the board. The Wyndham Team did a maneuver requiring the 3rd seat be filed by a Hawaii resident. Another vote was taken for the 3rd seat. The candidates were Dani Ramos (Wyndham employee and Hawaii resident on the original ballot) and an independent owner at the meeting who nominated herself. The results of this vote was Dani Ramos, 1,377.2 and the independent, 498.6. So... Dani Ramos is the new board member instead of Trish Harrington.
Voting Results
Larry Warner, 2,136
George Keeney, 1,911.75
Trish Harrington, 965.75
Brian Reichel, 633.45
Larry Geiger, 163.55
Danielle Ramos, 131.75
John Hodge, 29.55
To keep tuned in to the activities addressing many issues surrounding these election results follow Brian Reichel's posts. [jlg note: to date, these have been on the KBVowners yahoo group]​

At this point Jeff Belin has emerged as the public voice of the “resistance.” I continue to be positively impressed by his restraint.

I prefer to not engage in hypotheticals regarding potential responses to Wyndham’s hostile takeover. I am no longer on the board, but I have some awareness of the background maneuvers. I do not want to inadvertently do anything adverse to those efforts. There are potential outcomes where it may be appropriate for me to resume an active role.

Once the May board meeting minutes are posted, there is at least one motion passed that could be worthy of conversation here on TUG. As a result of my analysis of the December survey results, I developed a proposal. A motion passed authorizing the resort manager to confirm its compliance with Hawaiian regulations and assess its appeal with current owners. Its implementation is unlikely under Wyndham domination. The only reason that I would not want to discuss it in too much detail once the minutes are posted is related to premature sharing of “trade secrets” / competitive advantage. What could I be talking about? In brief, a direction of a solution to the core problem. What core problem? The one in the analysis in my original campaign statement: https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...las-board-election.240675/page-5#post-2124393

If and when I get a chance to review the contents of my resignation letter with an appropriate adviser, I may share it here. Other than that, what can I add here about the Wyndham takeover? I retain the KBV Forum moderator role until the board informs me otherwise. It is possible that the board will choose to let me retain it.

I hope that owners eventually adopt / accept this forum as theirs. FWIW, the paper hand out given to all owners who attend the onsite resort manager meeting includes the url and QR code for this site.

Jack
 

Pathways

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On 5/19/19 Karen Blackford (KYHOME) posted the following election results on Jeff Bellin’s KBVowner yahoo group:

I haven't tried to access this group in some time. As you know, many who dare question the moderator's take on things are blocked.

The results of this vote was Dani Ramos, 1,377.2 and the independent, 498.6. So... Dani Ramos is the new board member instead of Trish Harrington.
Voting Results

Danielle Ramos, 131.75

An analysis of the number difference between these votes should signify the tremendous power of any owner who owns a large block of units.

I'm not sure it is a done deal - the fact that there has been no announcement of the results is rather odd in itself.

This is the basis for my questioning. At BOD meetings I have attended, the vote is taken, the results announced, new members installed, and the new BOD moves on. How can a protest even be lodged until an announcement is made? I guess we will eventually know some of what happened, but it bothers me that Jack resigned without some official announcement of the original results.

However, I trust his judgement in this matter 100%!
 

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This whole situation is just terrible for owners. Between the posts here and the sky is falling drama on the Yahoo group, more and more owners see Wyndham winning the election as some catastrophic event and are considering “walking away” and defaulting on their maintenance fees.

More defaulting owners means higher maintenance fees for owners that stay. Which ultimately will result in more owners choosing to walk away. Rinse, repeat.

Of course if anyone tries to sell or give away their timeshare, google will land buyers here and if the potential buyer is smart they will run for the hills.

Wyndham’s intentions aside, putting contracts out to bid is always a good thing. What if there is a better alternative to GP out there? What if the competition forces GP to make a more competitive pricing offer? If Wyndham bids on the management contract and isn’t competitive, the fiscal duty of the directors to the association should force them to select the best bid. They also are supposed to disclose any potential conflict and abstain from voting on those conflicts. I don’t think anyone can assume that changing management companies is a done deal.
 

ecwinch

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I would agree with the viewpoints above by all.

What I find frustrating is the lack of information in the official KBV channel in contrast to the seemingly abundance of information in the SaveKBV.org channel that some people (me) are barred from.

How are the former/current BoD members who participate in that channel freed from the restraints that apply here? The SaveKBV.org group is clearly privy to information that is not in the public realm. How is that equitable and/or comply with the BoD Code of Conduct?
 

magmue

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..... Another vote was taken for the 3rd seat. The candidates were Dani Ramos (Wyndham employee and Hawaii resident on the original ballot) and an independent owner at the meeting who nominated herself. The results of this vote was Dani Ramos, 1,377.2 and the independent, 498.6. So... Dani Ramos is the new board member instead of Trish Harrington.
Voting Results
Larry Warner, 2,136
George Keeney, 1,911.75
Trish Harrington, 965.75
Brian Reichel, 633.45
Larry Geiger, 163.55
Danielle Ramos, 131.75
John Hodge, 29.55
It seems clear to me, based on these numbers, that Wyndham could not have accomplished their goal of ending with 3 seats without having a "do over" for the third seat while leaving the top 2 vote-getters as uncontested winners in the second round. They left Dani unloved in terms of their voting block in the first vote, knowing they would force a second vote - but only on the third seat. The maneuver allowed them to swing their club twice.

It is interesting to speculate how the final vote numbers would have shaken out if - after Wyndham's Hawaii resident surprise - another vote had been taken for all three seats.
 

ecwinch

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It seems clear to me, based on these numbers, that Wyndham could not have accomplished their goal of ending with 3 seats without having a "do over" for the third seat while leaving the top 2 vote-getters as uncontested winners in the second round. They left Dani unloved in terms of their voting block in the first vote, knowing they would force a second vote - but only on the third seat. The maneuver allowed them to swing their club twice.

It is interesting to speculate how the final vote numbers would have shaken out if - after Wyndham's Hawaii resident surprise - another vote had been taken for all three seats.

It might give us some perspective if we had a first hand account of when the resident issue was first raised during the annual meeting and/or how the decision was made on complying with the residency requirement.

Because like you I also found it troubling that a “double-vote” was allowed. But when I take a step back, I am not sure how it would have ended differently. One approach would have been to select the candidate with the highest vote total that met the residency requirement - but that results in the same outcome. Likewise - given the voting power Wyndham controls - any separate election ends up in some place.
 

Pathways

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It seems clear to me, based on these numbers, that Wyndham could not have accomplished their goal of ending with 3 seats without having a "do over" for the third seat while leaving the top 2 vote-getters as uncontested winners in the second round.

It is interesting to speculate how the final vote numbers would have shaken out if - after Wyndham's Hawaii resident surprise - another vote had been taken for all three seats.

Wyndham knew exactly how many of the votes for the top two were theirs. They could easily have backed down the number of votes for 1 & 2 and given Dani enough votes to also win. All of the opposition together for one person only is the only way Dani doesn't get elected.

I can't imagine a scenario where there would be more opposition votes than this election. And yet, the Wyndham votes easily were the winners.
 

jacknsara

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This whole situation is just terrible for owners. Between the posts here and the sky is falling drama on the Yahoo group, more and more owners see Wyndham winning the election as some catastrophic event and are considering “walking away” and defaulting on their maintenance fees.

More defaulting owners means higher maintenance fees for owners that stay. Which ultimately will result in more owners choosing to walk away. Rinse, repeat.

Of course if anyone tries to sell or give away their timeshare, google will land buyers here and if the potential buyer is smart they will run for the hills.

Wyndham’s intentions aside, putting contracts out to bid is always a good thing. What if there is a better alternative to GP out there? What if the competition forces GP to make a more competitive pricing offer? If Wyndham bids on the management contract and isn’t competitive, the fiscal duty of the directors to the association should force them to select the best bid. They also are supposed to disclose any potential conflict and abstain from voting on those conflicts. I don’t think anyone can assume that changing management companies is a done deal.
Aloha,

I find multiple opportunities for response within this post. I’ll start with just one for now.

I claim that “putting contracts out to bid is always a good thing” is false even though many people believe it is true. The problematic word is “always.”

If we don’t agree on the problem, it is very unlikely that we will agree on a solution or even a direction of a solution let alone the details.

For various reasons the former board concluded three or four years ago that a change in resort manager was critical. Years earlier than that they cancelled the contract with Wyndham whereby Wyndham took ownership and eventually paid maintenance fees for all inventory repossessed by the Interval Owners Association (IOA) from defaulting owners. I and a vast majority of owners who responded to my two emails to owners believe that Grand Pacific has proven to be a superior manager to Wyndham. Even so, the former board ignored the “core” or “root cause” problem which did not go away just because it was ignored.

Some people believe that the current quantity of units owned by the IOA is the current problem to be addressed. It is not. It is an effect of a more serious root cause. Some may wonder how I might demonstrate that high level of IOA owned inventory is not the most serious current problem. Easy. Grand Pacific has monetized that IOA inventory via rentals to the extent that net revenue realized by the IOA is very close to the maintenance fees that are lost. I agree that this is not a reliable long term patch. However, it supports my position that IOA owned inventory is not the most serious current problem.

With the exception of returning to the arrangement where Wyndham took all IOA inventory after it was repossessed from defaulting owners, changing the resort manager will not address the root cause. The “putting the contract out to bid” is either a waste of time or a cover for returning to the years ago arrangement with Wyndham. Whether that is a good or bad solution is discussable. The majority of subscribers to KBVowners on Yahoo believe that it is undesirable.

Jack
 

jacknsara

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. . . The SaveKBV.org group is clearly privy to information that is not in the public realm. How is that equitable and/or comply with the BoD Code of Conduct?
Aloha,
I will assume that the intended definition of "the SaveKBV.org group" is limited to a very small number of "leaders" rather than the 200+ subscribers to KBVowners on Yahoo. Further, although I was endorsed by the SaveKBV group, I was not a leader within it.
I agree that situation is undesirable. However, I claim it is no less equitable than Wyndham's behavior. At this point, none of SaveKBV leaders nor I are on the board.
Other than discussions that occurred within "executive sessions" I am free to speak (i.e. type) without constraint. As mentioned in a previous post, I choose to be cautious and avoid any possible adverse impact to future developments.
BTW - I was in Kauai for a bit over two weeks after the annual meeting and chose to minimize participation here while my emotions settled.
Jack
 

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Putting a contract out to bid is important even when you don’t want to change vendors. You never know what’s out there or if what you’re currently paying is competitive.

Even if you say you don’t want to change no matter who else is out there - you’re almost guaranteed to get a more favorable agreement when competition is in play.

Aloha,

I find multiple opportunities for response within this post. I’ll start with just one for now.

I claim that “putting contracts out to bid is always a good thing” is false even though many people believe it is true. The problematic word is “always.”

If we don’t agree on the problem, it is very unlikely that we will agree on a solution or even a direction of a solution let alone the details.

For various reasons the former board concluded three or four years ago that a change in resort manager was critical. Years earlier than that they cancelled the contract with Wyndham whereby Wyndham took ownership and eventually paid maintenance fees for all inventory repossessed by the Interval Owners Association (IOA) from defaulting owners. I and a vast majority of owners who responded to my two emails to owners believe that Grand Pacific has proven to be a superior manager to Wyndham. Even so, the former board ignored the “core” or “root cause” problem which did not go away just because it was ignored.

Some people believe that the current quantity of units owned by the IOA is the current problem to be addressed. It is not. It is an effect of a more serious root cause. Some may wonder how I might demonstrate that high level of IOA owned inventory is not the most serious current problem. Easy. Grand Pacific has monetized that IOA inventory via rentals to the extent that net revenue realized by the IOA is very close to the maintenance fees that are lost. I agree that this is not a reliable long term patch. However, it supports my position that IOA owned inventory is not the most serious current problem.

With the exception of returning to the arrangement where Wyndham took all IOA inventory after it was repossessed from defaulting owners, changing the resort manager will not address the root cause. The “putting the contract out to bid” is either a waste of time or a cover for returning to the years ago arrangement with Wyndham. Whether that is a good or bad solution is discussable. The majority of subscribers to KBVowners on Yahoo believe that it is undesirable.

Jack
 

ecwinch

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Aloha,

I claim that “putting contracts out to bid is always a good thing” is false even though many people believe it is true. The problematic word is “always.”

If we don’t agree on the problem, it is very unlikely that we will agree on a solution or even a direction of a solution let alone the details.

For various reasons the former board concluded three or four years ago that a change in resort manager was critical. Years earlier than that they cancelled the contract with Wyndham whereby Wyndham took ownership and eventually paid maintenance fees for all inventory repossessed by the Interval Owners Association (IOA) from defaulting owners. I and a vast majority of owners who responded to my two emails to owners believe that Grand Pacific has proven to be a superior manager to Wyndham. Even so, the former board ignored the “core” or “root cause” problem which did not go away just because it was ignored.


Jack - it might help the dialog if you reiterated the "core" problem at KBV. From the paragraph above, it is not clear to me.

As you suggest above, agreeing on the problem is a key step.

And I would add a nuance - even if there is agreement on the problem - the problem has to addressable - i.e. within our power to change. Many could and have suggested that Wyndham is the problem, but is that a problem we can realistically address?
 

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I choose to be cautious and avoid any possible adverse impact to future developments.

Clearly you owe no one an explanation. Your hours of unpaid labor and effort were/are extremely appreciated. This whole ordeal has affected few (if any) as much as it has you. Kudos!!
 
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jacknsara

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Jack - it might help the dialog if you reiterated the "core" problem at KBV. From the paragraph above, it is not clear to me.

As you suggest above, agreeing on the problem is a key step.

And I would add a nuance - even if there is agreement on the problem - the problem has to addressable - i.e. within our power to change. Many could and have suggested that Wyndham is the problem, but is that a problem we can realistically address?
In an earlier post I included a link to the TUG post where the pdf document is embedded. Here is the direct link: https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?attachments/goodstein_kbv_bod_2018-pdf.6144/
If you want to skip the derivation, go to the bottom of page 6
 

ecwinch

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From pg. 6:

"The core problem which impacts bad debt and maintenance fees and is a major source of dissatisfaction to owners seeking to dispose of their ownership is that the aftermarket resale value for KBV timeshares is negligible or negative."
 

jacknsara

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Putting a contract out to bid is important even when you don’t want to change vendors. You never know what’s out there or if what you’re currently paying is competitive.

Even if you say you don’t want to change no matter who else is out there - you’re almost guaranteed to get a more favorable agreement when competition is in play.
It takes significant time of board members to do this process. It cannot be delegated to the current resort manager. If the resort manager's performance is not even a problem, then why devote such a scarce resource which inevitably takes the board's eye off the real problem. Some might complain that Grand Pacific was profiting too much from the rental program. Even if it that charge is true, why is that the problem to focus on? Penny wise vs pound foolish comes to mind.
 

jacknsara

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. . . At this point, none of SaveKBV leaders nor I are on the board. . . .
Jack
It occurs to me that I do not know if my vacant position has been filled yet. If the current board were to follow precedent, they would pick the candidate who placed next; in other words, they would pick Patricia Harrington. I will be surprised if they do that. I have reason to believe their cover story / explanation for their annual meeting maneuver was to oust Trish.
 
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