Marriott making it impossible to buy/sell resales

[NotNew]

Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).

If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.

Deeded timeshares MF go up 3-5% every year like clockwork, often without any precipitating expenses or event driving them -- other than Marriott charging more management fees. Further when Marriott rents deeded timeshares, only 10-15% of these monies are returned to the timeshare system to offset actual costs, while Marriott pockets 85-90% for fees. If 85-90% was instead returned to the timeshare system, MF would actual remain fairly constant.

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value. Marriott now charges an artificial rate of $3 per point to register resale points (up from an already exorbitant $2 previously). With points, owners are left paying MF on unsold property in the trust, when Marriott would have otherwise have had to pay these expenses. Point MF which were at inception more than deeded timeshares (because points owners are paying MF on property no one yet owns) and have only increased over time. A whopping .58 per point, on the way to .60 for 2020.

With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust), #2 Reducing the exorbitant management fees Marriott charges owners. These are examples, there are more of course, but these are some of the reasons Marriott (and other timeshare companies) went to a points-based system. Another: No HOAs for oversight of Marriott mismanagement and overcharges.

Left unsaid another reason for the move to points: Marriott literally has a license to sell AIR (points backed by no tangible property). Marriott can do this because owner use their points for non-property stays: tours, cruises, etc which are the worst use of points as all you are getting back in value terms are your maintenance fees (and completely omitting all the up front monies paid in).

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system." REAL CONVERSATION, REAL ACTUAL COSTS.

Points, even at, 50% of developer costs are way overvalued. Primarily because Marriott artificially sets and raises the pricing, but also because Marriott not only rolled out points in the middle of the largest economic downturn in modern history but had the gall to actually inflate point pricing 150% relative to current deeded pricing. AND people lined up to pay it. Head shake.

So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.

 

[SeaDoc]

Appreciate your cathartic assessment. However, I own 5 platinum weeks totaling 20k in destination points every year, which I get enormous value as compared with maintenance fees paid. Further, in the event I wish to sell my weeks back to Marriott, they will buy them at a fairly good price, given that I’ve used the heck out of them. So, all in all, I’m a happy owner.


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[NotNew]

Appreciate your cathartic assessment. However, I own 5 platinum weeks totaling 20k in destination points every year, which I get enormous value as compared with maintenance fees paid. Further, in the event I wish to sell my weeks back to Marriott, they will buy them at a fairly good price, given that I’ve used the heck out of them. So, all in all, I’m a happy owner.


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Marriott doesn't buy back timeshares... It gives you a deed in lieu of your MF and you give up your timeshare rights--in the best of circumstances. In the worst, you or your family carry the MF for years until you finally sell them or get a deed in lieu.

If you have 5 platinum weeks for 20K points and were lucky enough to have bought resales before the April 2016 deadline which turned off the right to enroll deeded timeshares into the points program, you are a lucky man. If you paid full developer costs, I'm not so sure you are lucky at all.

 

[NotNew]

Incidentally, when Marriott gets properties back like that it pockets the profits as part of its management fees then resells the property again and again taking the lion's share of the monies for management fees. It's why MF increases when in fact they should be holding steady

 

[Quadmaniac]

Marriott doesn't buy back timeshares... It gives you a deed in lieu of your MF and you give up your timeshare rights--in the best of circumstances. In the worst, you or your family carry the MF for years until you finally sell them or get a deed in lieu.

If you have 5 platinum weeks for 20K points and were lucky enough to have bought resales before the April 2016 deadline which turned off the right to enroll deeded timeshares into the points program, you are a lucky man. If you paid full developer costs, I'm not so sure you are lucky at all.

Actually Marriott does buy back timeshares. I sold about 5 back to them a few years ago. You always have options. If you don't want your units any longer, you can look at reselling them on Redweek.

Unfortunately, Marriott is a business and they will do everything in their ability to make money from their clients, that's capitalism. Do I necessarily agree with it ? No but either you go with what they're packaging or sell out.

I personally still find value in their weeks system. Points, I have a hard time justifying thus have not gone down that route.

The actual deadline was 2010. Any weeks prior to that time can be enrolled. Any after that time would need a points purchase to enroll them.

 

[NotNew]

I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.

Marriott doesnt make money for its clients--Marriott makes money for its executives and shareholders. Marriott does not make money for the benefit of timeshare owners.

On the resale side, I saw two extensions for the deadline. One was in 2013 and one was in 2016. Few resale buyers are lucky enough to get offered to enroll wit a points purchase--typically only after a number of hard sells dont work to get you to open your checkbook and then only at certain times, under certain conditions, with certain stipulations that ensure you still pay a premium.

If you bought resales, I'm sure you are very happy with your purchases, who wouldnt be when they end up with 20K points and Chairman's club status. But then you said also you haven't gone down that route? So you do or dont have points and Chairmans club status?

If you bought early at pre-construction rates, I imagine you are also happy. Not everyone did though. Some just plunked down the current cost for a Hawaii week in points ($120,000 and didn't know they were overpaying 400% compared to actual value).

 

[bazzap]

Actually Marriott does buy back timeshares. I sold about 5 back to them a few years ago. You always have options. If you don't want your units any longer, you can look at reselling them on Redweek.

Unfortunately, Marriott is a business and they will do everything in their ability to make money from their clients, that's capitalism. Do I necessarily agree with it ? No but either you go with what they're packaging or sell out.

I personally still find value in their weeks system. Points, I have a hard time justifying thus have not gone down that route.

The actual deadline was 2010. Any weeks prior to that time can be enrolled. Any after that time would need a points purchase to enroll them.

2010 was the cut off date for enrolling US / Caribbean weeks
2012 for European weeks
2016 for Phuket weeks.

 

[SeaDoc]

Marriott has offered to purchase two of my platinum shadow ridge weeks, if I so choose.


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[NotNew]

Thanks also for getting the conversation started. Really do want all viewpoints!!

 

[NotNew]

2010 was the cut off date for enrolling US / Caribbean weeks
2012 for European weeks
2016 for Phuket weeks.

exactly, thanks barry

 

[VacationForever]

Marriott has offered to purchase two of my platinum shadow ridge weeks, if I so choose.


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When was this? They are not doing so for the past 2 years.

 

[VacationForever]

With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust),

Do you know for a fact that MVC does not pay MF on unsold points in the trust?

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).

If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.

Deeded timeshares MF go up 3-5% every year like clockwork, often without any precipitating expenses or event driving them -- other than Marriott charging more management fees. Further when Marriott rents deeded timeshares, only 10-15% of these monies are returned to the timeshare system to offset actual costs, while Marriott pockets 85-90% for fees. If 85-90% was instead returned to the timeshare system, MF would actual remain fairly constant.

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value. Marriott now charges an artificial rate of $3 per point to register resale points (up from an already exorbitant $2 previously). With points, owners are left paying MF on unsold property in the trust, when Marriott would have otherwise have had to pay these expenses. Point MF which were at inception more than deeded timeshares (because points owners are paying MF on property no one yet owns) and have only increased over time. A whopping .58 per point, on the way to .60 for 2020.

With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust), #2 Reducing the exorbitant management fees Marriott charges owners. These are examples, there are more of course, but these are some of the reasons Marriott (and other timeshare companies) went to a points-based system. Another: No HOAs for oversight of Marriott mismanagement and overcharges.

Left unsaid another reason for the move to points: Marriott literally has a license to sell AIR (points backed by no tangible property). Marriott can do this because owner use their points for non-property stays: tours, cruises, etc which are the worst use of points as all you are getting back in value terms are your maintenance fees (and completely omitting all the up front monies paid in).

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system." REAL CONVERSATION, REAL ACTUAL COSTS.

Points, even at, 50% of developer costs are way overvalued. Primarily because Marriott artificially sets and raises the pricing, but also because Marriott not only rolled out points in the middle of the largest economic downturn in modern history but had the gall to actually inflate point pricing 150% relative to current deeded pricing. AND people lined up to pay it. Head shake.

So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.

Clearly the Marriott program is not for you..... Maybe Hyatt is a better fit.




.

 

[NotNew]

NYSE: VAC, go into the financials. When current owners are in arrears Marriott, passes these costs on to the owners as well as part of the MF. There are other examples.... drill down

 

[NotNew]

Lots of hidden expenses, costs and fees are being passed on to owners in the MF. At the same time, lots of monies collected from rental, etc dont make it back as credits to offset MF because Marriott milks them with exorbitant fees.

The points system has made it even easier to pass on these hidden costs and fees to owners rather Marriott itself having to pay these.

 

[NotNew]

Clearly the Marriott program is not for you..... Maybe Hyatt is a better fit.

For me personally, maybe, but I have many family members in Marriott, so as I've said 25 years of experience with the system. Collectively they've spent SEVERAL fortunes in costs, fees, etc

 

[bazzap]

I was going to ask the very same question.
MVC have certainly always paid the MF on unsold weeks inventory and still do where the Trust is unable to own any inventory e.g. in Europe.

Do you know for a fact that MVC does not pay MF on unsold points in the trust?[/QUOT

 

[NotNew]

I was going to ask the very same question.
MVC have certainly always paid the MF on unsold weeks inventory and still do where the Trust is unable to own any inventory e.g. in Europe.

A background in accounting helps to see where the shells are being pushed around. You also need to look at NASDAQ: MAR, in the financials.

An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculator.aspx

$2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
$12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years.

Also dont confuse DEEDED vs land trust. The trust is points and YES Europe wont let Marriott do magical shell games YET.

-obviously not intended to be a source of advice or financial information

 

[VacationForever]

Lots of hidden expenses, costs and fees are being passed on to owners in the MF. At the same time, lots of monies collected from rental, etc dont make it back as credits to offset MF because Marriott milks them with exorbitant fees.

The points system has made it even easier to pass on these hidden costs and fees to owners rather Marriott itself having to pay these.

Your post is not data driven. While it is true that owners' MF include paying for collections/MF in arrears, it is not true that owners' MF cover unsold trust inventory.

 

[NotNew]

Your post is not data driven. While it is true that owners' MF include paying for collections/MF in arrears, it is not true that owners' MF cover unsold trust inve

Really, truly depends on how you are interpreting the passed on costs, fees and expenses, and like I said only the financials reveal this and of course, each properties reports.

As an example, resources are needed to maintain unsold inventory properties. How otherwise are these resources being paid for? Other costs fees expenses are in the MF as well

-obviously not intended to be a source of advice or financial information

 

[VacationForever]

An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/simple-savings-calculator.aspx

$2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
$12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years.

...and so do healthcare cost, hotel rates etc go up. I used to pay 5 cents for candy and now it is a dollar.

 

[jerseyfinn]

Actually Marriott does buy back timeshares. I sold about 5 back to them a few years ago. You always have options. If you don't want your units any longer, you can look at reselling them on Redweek.

Unfortunately, Marriott is a business and they will do everything in their ability to make money from their clients, that's capitalism. Do I necessarily agree with it ? No but either you go with what they're packaging or sell out.

Well said. Yes Marriott does indeed buy back weeks, but only select weeks such as high season sought after resorts where the Trust wants more inventory or MVC sees a chance to flip a week for profit. As Cal Coolidge said, " the business of America is business." & Marriott's unapologetic about that

Next to new car depreciation, timeshare is the next most devalued purchase one can make. So why do it? It comes down to how much one values destination travel & how they strategize.

---


Consider Marriott TS history beginning in late 80s, gaining momentum late 90s & a thereafter hot, expanding market until 2007:

initially sold as a linear, deeded week product ( some no deed exceptions & product changes ). The Mayflower "pilgrims" bought early at developer prices when the product was more fluid & you had many ways to strategize to your advantage. Those of us who come in early 2000s sort of the last wagon trains who live the wild west MVC energy of growth easily leveraging our ownership. 2007 a dividing line of collapse of owner equity & resale market collapse.

Marriott's new Fort Apache is the Trust & points program where Marriott takes write offs for itself & pegs Trust points near the pre-2007 developer highs. No more deeded weeks, but for multiple legacy owners, a choice to enroll their weeks and learn new strategies. This hasn't been a static process as Marriott integrates owners into the MR hotel loyalty program which does add to strategy so long as one takes a longer view.

Folks who will feel less satisfied are those who buy linear weeks a year or so prior to 2007 collapse, or those who don't own multiple weeks. Honestly speaking, if one wanted to exploit enrolling their legacy week(s) you really needed to own at least 3 or more weeks. Especially advantageous to those legacy owners who can indeed gain more flexibility via using enrolled points.

Once again, as to resale: it's out there, but expect low return on your dollar as it was always this way ( except early 2000s for select platinum weeks at high demand resorts -- folks actually sold at a profit).

But Marriott does offer to buy select weeks, steeply discounted for those who want to sell. Part of the process of a market economy.

travel safe & enjoy your weeks

barry

 

[NotNew]

and so do healthcare cost, hotel rates etc go up. I used to pay 5 cents for candy and now it is a dollar.

Back to the point: It's important to know what MF are going to be in the future to see if you can afford them. You may be able to afford $12K in MF today but not $32K in 20 years (which is where 12K goes at 5% in 20 years primarily due to exorbitant management fees).

 

[NotNew]

But Marriott does offer to buy select weeks, steeply discounted for those who want to sell. Part of the process of a market economy

Again, talked to thousands of Marriott owners on other sites for YEARS, never heard of this until just now.

 

[Quadmaniac]

I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.

Marriott doesnt make money for its clients--Marriott makes money for its executives and shareholders. Marriott does not make money for the benefit of timeshare owners.

On the resale side, I saw two extensions for the deadline. One was in 2013 and one was in 2016. Few resale buyers are lucky enough to get offered to enroll wit a points purchase--typically only after a number of hard sells dont work to get you to open your checkbook and then only at certain times, under certain conditions, with certain stipulations that ensure you still pay a premium.

If you bought resales, I'm sure you are very happy with your purchases, who wouldnt be when they end up with 20K points and Chairman's club status. But then you said also you haven't gone down that route? So you do or dont have points and Chairmans club status?

If you bought early at pre-construction rates, I imagine you are also happy. Not everyone did though. Some just plunked down the current cost for a Hawaii week in points ($120,000 and didn't know they were overpaying 400% compared to actual value).

They bought back my Marriott Harbour Lake, Willow Ridge, Royal Palms and Sabal Palms units. I actually made money off of the units from what I paid for them from various sites like eBay and private transactions. They are not buying as much as they were.

Marriott is not supposed to make money for its clients nor timeshare owners. We are consumers of THEIR products so they have no obligation to make money for us. Their responsibility is to their shareholders like every other company. I don't see how Marriott should be any different. When I walk into a restaurant for dinner, I am their client and they are making money off of me, that's business.

The deadline of 2010 applies to the majority of the Marriott units in North America and the "extensions" were attempts to get the holdouts to convert. I'm sure there will be further offers down the road to get legacy owners to shell out more money. Will I do it ? Not a chance at retail prices, but as a company, that is their goal, is to sell their "wares" and I can not fault them for trying to make a buck like any other business.

I bought all my timeshares resale and they're making me money renting them out. Marriott owes me nothing other than providing the service I paid for. Beyond that they are not there to earn money for me, that isn't what they were promising me. If I want that, then I should be shareholder and then they have a responsibility to me to make me money.