• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Sometimes it's better to buy from the brand [says Timeshare Salesman]

maxpot46

newbie
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
Evidence? Seriously?
You claim to know TUG well. Then you must certainly know we see a constant flow of newcomers we encounter with the same horror stories. Smart people who were goaded into buying from the developer. People locked into contracts they cannot get out of - ruining their lives. Talked into it by people like you.Get off your high horse, Mr. Ivy League. You ran into a brick wall at post #2 because we've seen your type here from time to time.

There has not been a single new piece of good information revealed through this thread. Except it sounds like you now know what a PCC is. Good for you.

Steak but no sizzle. Dialectics. Straw manning. Imputing motives. You are a walking cliche of everything we hate about timeshare presentations. Go away, @kaio.

I'm not talking about the average timeshare, and admit that there are many lemons and bad deals in the industry. Pointing to them says nothing about my propositions, which are in regards to outlier premium programs.

TUG is like any other forum, 90% emotional reactions and 10% dialectic. I expect no less, and am not deterred by it.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
I'm not talking about the average timeshare, and admit that there are many lemons and bad deals in the industry.

I have very little doubt that most of what you sell, if not all of what you sell is lemons, at least in terms of value.
 

bluehende

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,507
Reaction score
3,967
Points
598
I'm not talking about the average timeshare, and admit that there are many lemons and bad deals in the industry. Pointing to them says nothing about my propositions, which are in regards to outlier premium programs.

TUG is like any other forum, 90% emotional reactions and 10% dialectic. I expect no less, and am not deterred by it.


Dialectic Everybody drink
 

Iggyearl

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2014
Messages
808
Reaction score
990
Points
203
Location
Ballston Lake, NY
Max, I think you have a lot of self confidence, you have done well, and you make a good living. Have you had many recessions?
 

CalGalTraveler

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
9,739
Reaction score
8,270
Points
498
Location
California
Resorts Owned
HGVC, MVC Vistana
Yes, which is precisely why I show a forum post by an owner stating his buyback offer for my product was 50%, and an email from a timeshare reseller who describes how I shouldn't list this deed for resale for only 50% because if I did my company would swoop in with the ROFR and (gasp) dare to make a profit.

Can you direct us to this forum post?

I get it now. You sell to an extremely narrow high-end market. The problem is as developers increase their price points beyond $100,000 you are selling to an ever narrowing audience and the TS market is saturated.

The market is even shrinking because the industry has an image problem due to a lack of liquidity caused by a fractured "wild west" resale market, and brands refusing to guarantee deedbacks. I see exit companies every night on prime-time. Just read the comments to a Wyndham interview on The Points Guy blog (spoiler: it struck a negative nerve). This reputation must not sit well for prospective penthouse buyers with big egos who want bragging rights.

If you want to give people a big reason to buy developer, here it is:

Provide a guaranteed buyback and emergency deedback program. It could look roughly like this:
  • The buyback could be as simple as a sliding scale e.g. "if you own for 5 years you get x, 10 years we will give you y, if you own for 15 we will give you z.."
  • The emergency deedback would be like an insurance policy in which if someone could verify they lost their job, had a major health issue. spousal death etc. they could surrender their unit for free in return for taking over the maintenance fee. Proceeds from reselling the unit, and insurance proceeds cover the MF costs until it is resold.
Similar to Starwood's requalification process for StarOptions, you could even enable people to get the same guarantee for their resales if they buy back in. You make sales, people know they have an easy exit if life happens and they need out quickly. It's like an insurance policy. A new revenue stream that supports deedbacks and buybacks, without the cost of building a new resort.

If I knew that I was going to get my money back (or a good portion of it), and had an easy exit in an emergency, I would consider buying developer again. We purchased with the expectation our value would hold (but without a guarantee) and were disappointed. You can fool me once.

Developers are going to have to address supporting a robust resale and deedback market because losing $20k vs. losing $100k changes the game stakes and the house of cards will fall to earth if they choose to ignore it.

Spend some time reading TUG. Listen to the stories and share them with your management so they can take action to address the industry issues.
 
Last edited:

RX8

TUG Member
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
4,107
Reaction score
4,452
Points
449
Resorts Owned
HGVC and DVC
We make a sick amount of money on our 6 hour workday.

And you think you are selling value? You make a sick amount of money because you are selling a $2.00 bottle of ketchup for $30.00.
 
Last edited:

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
Call me crazy but I would love to go to a presentation with the op and I NEVER go to any presentations. Even though I see it different I get what he is saying. Even though I would never buy from a developer it would be an interesting exchange.

It might be my Real Estate sales experience. There are some similarities. I sold million dollar homes. If you went down the road you could get a nicer home for 1/4 of the price but the prestige and value one perceived and the status they wanted made the sale. The difference between me and other sales people was I would do all in my power not to sell to someone who could not afford it. Always told them it’s your choice, if you want to buy I will sell to you but here is why I believe your over extending yourself. My boss heard me and I got in trouble but still did it my way and kept my job because anywhere they sent me I sold where others couldn’t.

I hate how most developers sell but it isn’t all their fault like we want to blame them. It amazes me the buyer just buys. Almost everything else people research for a good price. Common sense just leaves when on vacation. I got my first timeshare from a developer but that was before the internet and the ease of research. I shopped all the timeshare in the Atlantic City area in person doing my best comparison shopping at that time before I purchased.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
4,644
Reaction score
3,592
Points
348
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Mayan Palace Regency
Taranova
I'm not the sort who resorts to name-calling or insult. This is dialectic, and I care only for the exchange of ideas and information.

Hi Max ,
If you read the TUG rules - basically religion , politics , controversial topics etc : are off limits / due to the headaches of moderating these topics .

Timeshare Salespeple are fair game .

I can see you joined TUG in August .
Welcome to the forum -
 

dayooper

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
3,945
Reaction score
3,401
Points
349
Location
The Land of Ice and Snow
Resorts Owned
HGVC: The Flamingo, The Boulevard
If you do, congratulations. We make a sick amount of money on our 6 hour workday.

Just a piece of advice, I wouldn’t go around bragging on this here. When I read this, I immediately took you in a negative light. You are in a forum that sees people who have been lied to, swindled, taken advantage of and sold something they couldn’t handle financially. Yes, I understand it’s their choice, but it’s still predatory sales. I also understand you may not use these tactics, but we really don’t know the truth on this. As soon as you started bragging about how much you make in such a short amount of time, it made you sound like one of those predatory salesman. This one statement you made took everything you said about selling timeshares the right way and threw it out the window.

If you are truly here to learn and have civil dialogue, you shouldn’t make statements like that.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
4,644
Reaction score
3,592
Points
348
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Mayan Palace Regency
Taranova
No, I call myself a philosopher writing a book on ethics ...I despise emotional selling, which can allow someone to sell......

snow to an eskimo. .

Inuit

The Inuit are a group of culturally similar indigenous peoples inhabiting the Arctic regions of Greenland , Canada and Alaska

Eskimo is a prior term .

The Edmonton CFL Football team does have the prior use term in its name
just as the Washington NFL team uses a prior use term in its name .
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
It might be my Real Estate sales experience. There are some similarities. I sold million dollar homes. If you went down the road you could get a nicer home for 1/4 of the price but the prestige and value one perceived and the status they wanted made the sale.

Panina, i see where you are coming from. Yet, it is not the same thing. The million dollar homes you were selling were not worth 250k the next morning.

The fact that he is in a high end market does not change anything IMO, there are many other timeshares that are high end and in fabulous locations around the globe. They all suffer from the same problem: lack of liquidity. How many of his (supposedly well paid) colleagues do you think bought at that location the contracts they sell?
 

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
Panina, i see where you are coming from. Yet, it is not the same thing. The million dollar homes you were selling were not worth 250k the next morning.

The fact that he is in a high end market does not change anything IMO, there are many other timeshares that are high end and in fabulous locations around the globe. They all suffer from the same problem: lack of liquidity. How many of his (supposedly well paid) colleagues do you think bought at that location the contracts they sell?
When the market turned down and re taxes went up some those million dollar homes foreclosed and sold for 250k but that wasn’t my point.

Lack of liquidity and not getting back what you paid is around in many purchases. Recently I purchased a used vechicle and it was amazing how large the spread was in pricing. It was my responsibility to figure out if the price was right.

The problem with timeshares is the dishonest things buyers are told. It would take all of 5 minutes of an internet search to find out that you shouldn’t buy right now until you learn more yet most don’t do it. Doesn’t make a different there is no value, the buyer had a brain freeze not doing due research to make sure what they are buying is price well like they do for other items purchased. The prestige and value that one chooses to believe without researching is the problem. With all the time that one spends on their phones, think how easy it would to do a search while sitting at a presentation.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
5,753
Reaction score
3,076
Points
348
When the market turned down and re taxes went up some those million dollar homes foreclosed and sold for 250k but that wasn’t my point.

Lack of liquidity and not getting back what you paid is around in many purchases. Recently I purchased a used vechicle and it was amazing how large the spread was in pricing. It was my responsibility to figure out if the price was right.

The problem with timeshares is the dishonest things buyers are told. It would take all of 5 minutes of an internet search to find out that you shouldn’t buy right now until you learn more yet most don’t do it. Doesn’t make a different there is no value, the buyer had a brain freeze not doing due research to make sure what they are buying is price well like they do for other items purchased. The prestige and value that one chooses to believe without researching is the problem. With all the time that one spends on their phones, think how easy it would to do a search while sitting at a presentation.

You are right that many items do not keep their value after the purchase and people know that cars are depreciating goods. But real estate keeps its value and the TS industry thrives in no small part because of the initial confusion (skillfully manipulated by the TS sales people) that time sharing = real estate.

How many of us have heard the timeshare sales people saying something like: "if you buy a timeshare you are investing in real estate"?
 

Sapper

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
1,196
Reaction score
749
Points
223
Location
Houston, TX
Inuit

The Inuit are a group of culturally similar indigenous peoples inhabiting the Arctic regions of Greenland , Canada and Alaska

Eskimo is a prior term .
.

Backwards, Eskimo are a group of culturally similar indigenous people made up of the Inuit and Yupik. Canada has no Yupik, and adopted the term Inuit to replace Eskimo (back in the 1970's I think). Also, the Inupiat in Northern Alaska may technically fall under the Inuit group, but they like to identify as seperate... and did not seem to mind calling themselves part of the Eskimo people the last time I was in Barrow.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
4,644
Reaction score
3,592
Points
348
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Mayan Palace Regency
Taranova
Backwards, Eskimo are a group of culturally similar indigenous people....Canada has no Yupik, and adopted the term Inuit to replace Eskimo (back in the 1970's I think). Also, the Inupiat in Northern Alaska may....but they like to identify as seperate... and did not seem to mind calling themselves part of the Eskimo people ......

Interesting cultural nuances .

Does the nuance create the terminology or the other way around ?

Some terms stop being used because they were always offensive to the group defined by
the terminology - even though the term may have been in general use .

Metis vs half-breed -
I have a copy of Canadian Geographic from the early 1970’s in which a article uses the term “half - breeds “to refer to the guides used to visit a remote area of Western Canada .

Metis is now the usage term .

******
For TUG - Timeshare Salesperson and Sales Weasel remain interchangeable
and both are accepted use terms in the forum
 

breezez

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2015
Messages
1,020
Reaction score
693
Points
224
Location
Dover, FL
Resorts Owned
WorldMark 39K
Wyndham 406K
RCI Points 196K
Hyatt Pinon Pointe
Hyatt Coconut Plantation
You are right that many items do not keep their value after the purchase and people know that cars are depreciating goods. But real estate keeps its value and the TS industry thrives in no small part because of the initial confusion (skillfully manipulated by the TS sales people) that time sharing = real estate.

How many of us have heard the timeshare sales people saying something like: "if you buy a timeshare you are investing in real estate"?

I think lately TS companies have done a better job in explaining that TS is not a financial investment, but rather an investment in future vacations. Every TS companies liteture now days has this in bold print.

Personally I have nothing against TS sales people that are ethical in how they approach sales. I have sat with ones completely ethical, I have sat with ones that don’t know there product very well, I have sat with ones who sort of miss represent things not so much because they are lying but repeating what they have heard others say without knowing their product, and finally I have sat with the complete liars which I detest. You can always spot the complete liars because they get really defensive normally in the presentation as the law of psychological reciprocity goes out the window with them.

While many items significantly depreciate once you walk out the door like furniture. Timeshares have either a monthly, quarterly, or annual fee not going away. I am always amazed that people didn’t understand this or that it would increase once they bought it.

See a couch I can throw away when I’m done a TS I have to find someone else to take or crash my credit to have it foreclosed on.

What would be good to see in the Timeshare industry is a truth in understanding statement sort of like a truth in lending statement that shows what your loan fees and interest over life of loan will be (If using the sleezy tactic of signing them up on a branded CC to pay some or all this should be on form to), statement should show what maintenance fees will be and an estimated annual increase amount for maintenance fees for each of the next 3-5 years. Then at the bottom clearly list the rescind policy / procedure based on statutory rules in place at that location.

If TS companies were really ethical they would clearly state rescind policies not hide them in secret pockets or obscure them in mounds of paper work.

They would clearly make sure people understood there was re-occurring fees

They would list out those benefits that would not transfer if resold.

Finally if TS companies were truly ethical they would not have to strip benefits from contracts that are resold on open market. The fact that they do means they know the root product they sell for the price they sell it is not worth it. So they have to try and make what they are now selling look more valuable by adding benefits that can’t be transferred. So thus, they have little to no value in most cases when they are transferred.
 

bizaro86

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
3,663
Reaction score
2,488
Points
598
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Interesting cultural nuances .

Does the nuance create the terminology or the other way around ?

Some terms stop being used because they were always offensive to the group defined by
the terminology - even though the term may have been in general use .

Metis vs half-breed -
I have a copy of Canadian Geographic from the early 1970’s in which a article uses the term “half - breeds “to refer to the guides used to visit a remote area of Western Canada .

Metis is now the usage term .

******
For TUG - Timeshare Salesperson and Sales Weasel remain interchangeable
and both are accepted use terms in the forum

I have a "certificate of half-breed status" the Canadian government gave my great-great grandmother.
 

jwalk03

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 3, 2016
Messages
3,486
Reaction score
2,584
Points
348
Location
Ohio
I would think an Ivy League Econ degree could get one a much better job than being a sales weasel!

$250/night for renting is way too high of average. I have rented Hilton Head over 4th of July, Summer Myrtle Beach, Fall Smokey Mountains, Summer Wisconsin Dells, Holiday weekend Nashville, Bonnet Creek, Las Vegas, San Fransisco, and Panama City Beach among others the last few years and I have NEVER paid $250 per night for any of those, and all were at least 2BR units, not studios.
 

Sapper

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
1,196
Reaction score
749
Points
223
Location
Houston, TX
Interesting cultural nuances .

Does the nuance create the terminology or the other way around ?

Some terms stop being used because they were always offensive to the group defined by
the terminology - even though the term may have been in general use .

Metis vs half-breed -
I have a copy of Canadian Geographic from the early 1970’s in which a article uses the term “half - breeds “to refer to the guides used to visit a remote area of Western Canada .

Metis is now the usage term .

******
For TUG - Timeshare Salesperson and Sales Weasel remain interchangeable
and both are accepted use terms in the forum

I was thinking of this when I wrote my previous post. How in Northern Canada the preferred terminology may be offensive to the folks living on the West coast of Alaska. Sometimes it comes down to what one local group prefers to be called.

I have never heard the term "Metis" before, but the other term would be considered an insult. Though I did know some one who called her self half Tlingit half "sneaky Coast Guard guy". She had a great sense of humour.

I'm fairly certain "Sales Weasel" is the preferred term around this local population. ;)
 
Last edited:

CalGalTraveler

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
9,739
Reaction score
8,270
Points
498
Location
California
Resorts Owned
HGVC, MVC Vistana
I know we are all frustrated with the developers and how they sell. I am too. However I am learning a lot from this discussion and it will do no good to call people names (no matter how angry one is).

Let's keep this conversation respectful as we can gripe to ourselves all we want, but I think learning from those outside our bubble to hear other perspectives is helpful.
 

bizaro86

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
3,663
Reaction score
2,488
Points
598
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
I was thinking of this when I wrote my previous post. How in Northern Canada the preferred terminology may be offensive to the folks living on the West coast of Alaska. Sometimes it comes down to what one local group prefers to be called.

I have never heard the term "Metis" before, but the other term would be considered an insult. Though I did know some one who called her self half Tlingit half "sneaky Coast Guard guy". She had a great sense of humour.

I'm fairly certain "Sales Weasel" is the preferred term around this local population. ;)

Metis is a Canadian only term I think. It denotes the group of people who were (roughly) half French-Canadian half Native-Canadian. Mostly French last names. The fur trade was largely controlled initially by the French. The Voyageurs travelled by canoe to Western Canada and traded with the local people for furs. Given how long that journey took, they often stayed over winter and traveled in the summer. Inevitably some married local women, and stayed. They formed communities generally centered around the fur-trading forts. There was also a Metis rebellion once, led by Luis Riel. Executed as a traitor but now considered a father of Confederation.

The Metis were historically considered a "problem." Not fully native (and thus not entitled to reserves or the protections of the Indian Act) but not white either, in a society that was not historically accepting of non-whites. Metis people have been fighting for various historic rights for generations. I think it is unlikely those rights will ever be granted comparably to status Indians, as the number of people who have Metis status in one way ot another is significant. And many (myself included) are not visibly from a minority group, and thus face none of the discrimination faced by those who are visibly native in Canada.
 

davidvel

TUG Member
Joined
May 9, 2008
Messages
7,432
Reaction score
4,477
Points
648
Location
No. Cty. San Diego
Resorts Owned
Marriott Shadow Ridge (Villages)
Carlsbad Inn
I'm not talking about the average timeshare, and admit that there are many lemons and bad deals in the industry. Pointing to them says nothing about my propositions, which are in regards to outlier premium programs.

TUG is like any other forum, 90% emotional reactions and 10% dialectic. I expect no less, and am not deterred by it.
The numbers you quoted are the averages. Since you are claiming that many high end programs are such a great buy, post a real world example of a company you don't sell for: Product, developer price, annual MF, purchase perks. vs. resale of the same product. This way your theoretical "average" product can be tested. Of course, you could even post your own brand but we wouldn't know.

But of course, we know you can't and won't do this.
 

bluehende

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
4,507
Reaction score
3,967
Points
598
The numbers you quoted are the averages. Since you are claiming that many high end programs are such a great buy, post a real world example of a company you don't sell for: Product, developer price, annual MF, purchase perks. vs. resale of the same product. This way your theoretical "average" product can be tested. Of course, you could even post your own brand but we wouldn't know.

But of course, we know you can't and won't do this.

Notice how he uses averages for all the costs associated with his Ferrari. I could make the numbers look good too if I bought a Ferrari at Chevy prices.
 

rickandcindy23

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
31,894
Reaction score
8,998
Points
1,049
Location
The Centennial State
Resorts Owned
Wyndham Founder; Disney OKW & SSR; Marriott's Willow Ridge,Shadow Ridge,Grand Chateau;Val Chatelle; Hono Koa OF (3); SBR(LOTS), SDO a few; Grand Palms; WKORV-OF (2),Westin Desert Willow.
It's almost never wise to buy developer. If I pay $60K for a timeshare now (I am 63, almost 64), if I use it 30 years, I am paying $2K per year for the purchase. Add in the MF's, and i am at $3,000 for a week of timeshare per year. I own a lot of timeshare, and not one of them is this expensive. This is why I won't go on a Marriott presentation, not ever again.
 

maxpot46

newbie
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
Max, I think you have a lot of self confidence, you have done well, and you make a good living. Have you had many recessions?

Yes, unfortunately it's a part of the biz. I do a bit better than my colleagues who sell emotionally, as I've created a bunch of support documents to help them understand the product (including the spreadsheet for perusal by financial experts).
 
Top