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Cancel & Rebook - no longer possible?

BellaWyn

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If an owner wanted to recover some maintenance fees through an Extra Holidays rental, wouldn't they reserve the best reservation available at 13 months or 10 months to turn in to Extra Holidays?

If Wyndham wanted to reserve the best inventory for Extra Holidays, they would have just captured all the cancel/rebook attempts inside of 60 days. The fact that cancel/rebook was so successful under the old system argues against your assumption.
1) It would only take a newbie owner one time dealing with an EH "turn in" to figure out EH is not the best use of their points and they net VERY LITTLE out of the process (lesson learned, don't do it again). The process would rarely get repeated by that owner and they would "tell their friends" in the pool-side discussions.

2) Cancel / Rebook was the OLD system and likely did not use the same algorithms as we are seeing today. Initially (for many YEARS) WYN didn't even try to prevent Cancel / Rebook. The VC's assisted the process which infers that it was supported top-down. Do not think Happy's assumption is flawed, just not yet proven.

Not saying WYN still didn't take good inventory out of the old system to populate EH. As an owner, and developer, they have always had as much access (or more) to the available inventory as the owners have .....in the past.

As BigRob says:

"I don't think it's been established that "Wyndham is grabbing all the good reservations for Extra Holidays rentals."

What we know is that inventory is still incompletely and inaccurately being populated in the current Voyager system. Why it's taking so long remains a mystery. Ineptitude, complexity of data points, organizational cross-purposes. We have no idea. Likely it will remain a mystery until the smoke clears.

And then we are left with just the mirrors.... It's their thing.
 

Sandy VDH

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If an owner wanted to recover some maintenance fees through an Extra Holidays rental, wouldn't they reserve the best reservation available at 13 months or 10 months to turn in to Extra Holidays?

If Wyndham wanted to reserve the best inventory for Extra Holidays, they would have just captured all the cancel/rebook attempts inside of 60 days. The fact that cancel/rebook was so successful under the old system argues against your assumption.

Yes, but the problem with Extra holidays is that you give them a week, they could ONLY rent ONE day of it. Thats it. Plus I don't think there is an easy way to track if they rented your unit vs someone else unit, at least that they share with the owner who deposits the rental. PLUS, they take a hefty commission.

Do I think it is worth it to rent through Extra Holiday? NO, not really. They take took much control.
 

bogey21

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And at this juncture I don't own anything Wyndham, although there are a few contracts still snaking their way through the the transfer process. The accounts that hold those contracts are frozen

Ron, I like your style. You don't hesitate to act. If I owned Wyndham, based on what I read on TUG I'd be gone too.

Some 20 or so years ago I owned 4 Marriott Weeks. I didn't like the way they were changing the rules to my detriment and like you I sold them all, at a profit I might add. I stayed in TimeSharing in a different manner and it served me well. Good luck.

George
 

chapjim

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1)

2) Cancel / Rebook was the OLD system and likely did not use the same algorithms as we are seeing today. Initially (for many YEARS) WYN didn't even try to prevent Cancel / Rebook. The VC's assisted the process which infers that it was supported top-down. Do not think Happy's assumption is flawed, just not yet proven.

Cancel/rebook was not a particularly useful procedure back when canceled reservations didn't appear in inventory until the next day. I don't recall exactly when that changed but that change made cancel/rebook a real possibility.
 

BellaWyn

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Cancel/rebook was not a particularly useful procedure back when canceled reservations didn't appear in inventory until the next day. I don't recall exactly when that changed but that change made cancel/rebook a real possibility.
Somewhere in early 2009
 

BellaWyn

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Ron, I like your style. You don't hesitate to act. If I owned Wyndham, based on what I read on TUG I'd be gone too.
Some 20 or so years ago I owned 4 Marriott Weeks. I didn't like the way they were changing the rules to my detriment and like you I sold them all, at a profit I might add. I stayed in TimeSharing in a different manner and it served me well. Good luck.

George
Hesitation had nothing to do with Ron exiting his contracts. Read through the threads again.

One does not hesitate when negotiating with the strong arm of Wyndham legal. Resistance is futile - adapt and assimilate. It's their thing.
 

bogey21

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Either I wasn't clear or you misinterpreted my comment. I was attempting to give Ron kudos for active decisively.

George
 

Bigrob

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Either I wasn't clear or you misinterpreted my comment. I was attempting to give Ron kudos for active decisively.

George

I think she got it, she was saying rather than acting decisively, Ron was reacting in the only way he reasonably could, as protracted litigation would not have been a particularly attractive alternative.
 

ronparise

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I think she got it, she was saying rather than acting decisively, Ron was reacting in the only way he reasonably could, as protracted litigation would not have been a particularly attractive alternative.

She is more wrong than right

She is right that I really didnt have any other reasonable choice.

However, while others were still tying to prove themselves "right" and "win" their fight, I had already negotiated a settlement and we were working on the details of that settlement. I have to attribute that, at least in part to acting decisively. Most important though was my ability to step outside myself to understand this thing from Wyndhams position


theres more to it that that of course. Much of my decision making style goes back to a philosophy professor I had over 50 years ago. and the class he taught regarding the nature of freedom. What I learned there was "freedom is an understood necessity; and to be free is to love ones fate"
 

am1

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Cancel/rebook was not a particularly useful procedure back when canceled reservations didn't appear in inventory until the next day. I don't recall exactly when that changed but that change made cancel/rebook a real possibility.

Was very useful. Maybe a little more stress as along with my rebooks and upgrades I was going after other inventory that came available as well. Sometimes 15-20 browsers open tagging everything for 15 minutes so I could get a VC to upgrade etc. The real upside was I had the rest of the day free.
 

ladawgfan

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New to the forum and relatively new to Wyndham so hoping this turns out to be a good resource! The updates are great to get information but also a time sink.
Anyway, hoping to gain insight from other platinum owners on the impact of new automatic upgrades.
I called to cancel and rebook an upcoming reservation like I've done in the past to cut the points cost in half.
The agent warned me against it because of the new automatic upgrades feature, and that the system would grab the reservation as soon as it was cancelled.
Does anyone know if this is really true or know of a workaround?


Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.
 

tschwa2

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Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.
No but you are welcome to try to find a lawyer to take the case on a contingency basis and then organize owners to certify the class. My understanding with the last round of changes that included the removal of unlimited guest certificates to the highest level of VIP's and the ability to directly transfer points between accounts - other selling points at the time, was either determined that owners didn't qualify as a class or no firm would take on the case as a class action suit. Several individuals filed cases on their own dime. None went to trial, all were settled with a non disclosure statement for an undisclosed amount and Wyndham did not have to change or reverse any of the changes they made. I believe these were actual listed program benefits prior to the change.
 

ronparise

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Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.


If any lawyer is interested in taking this on It would be the guy from Alabama that represented Bill Spearman and several others 10 years ago.. My understanding however that it wasnt a class action. rather each individual brought their own action
if you want to call him, pm me, Ill send you his name and number.

You might also try the National Timeshare Owners Association if you are a member. If enough of their members are affected that may be able to help
https://www.ntoassoc.com/
 

Braindead

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Does anyone know if class action litigation exists regarding these changes? I realize cancel & rebook was a sales ploy and that these verbal representations are not spelled out in written contracts, but there should be some support to prove Wyndham's agent representations to so many of us to buy more points.
That's the weakest argument we have.
I don't think any good attorney would advise filing a class action on contingency.

Any judge or jury will simply see you were using a loophole that's been closed. No different than a tax loophole closed. Tax loopholes were even law.

Even if it's determined to be a verbal communication it was a loophole the sales weasel informed you of and now it's closed. Again your tax adviser informed you of a loophole and now it's gone.

My 2 cents worth
 

chapjim

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Was very useful. Maybe a little more stress as along with my rebooks and upgrades I was going after other inventory that came available as well. Sometimes 15-20 browsers open tagging everything for 15 minutes so I could get a VC to upgrade etc. The real upside was I had the rest of the day free.

If that's what you had to go through to do a cancel/rebook, I stick with my assertion that it wasn't very useful! Even if someone had the time, which I didn't and I expect most other owners didn't either, the risk seemed to be overwhelming.

There was no way I would have ever listed a rental outside 60 days before check-in with the old system. I routinely did that when cancellations came back in seconds or minutes.
 

am1

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If that's what you had to go through to do a cancel/rebook, I stick with my assertion that it wasn't very useful! Even if someone had the time, which I didn't and I expect most other owners didn't either, the risk seemed to be overwhelming.

There was no way I would have ever listed a rental outside 60 days before check-in with the old system. I routinely did that when cancellations came back in seconds or minutes.

Thats fine but it worked and was very successful. Knowing what would be available right when the website open made it very easy.
 

Bigrob

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Thats fine but it worked and was very successful. Knowing what would be available right when the website open made it very easy.

That is correct... when they came back immediately at open the next day. Very easy to cancel at 11:44 and rebook next morning at 7:00 AM, same process as carrying reservations risk free into the cancellation window.

However, now they are not coming back at a predictable time, at least from what I've observed.
 
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Wyndham's obligation is to grow stock for investors. THAT is all. Happy campers (timeshare owners) are a side or 2nd obligation. first to grow stock you need to sell a product successfully. They have done that. I don't know about now? What about Margarettaville? Wonder how that is going? Wyndham was starting to build again I wonder how sales will be if owners start attending again and saying they got shafted. Look to stock to drop. I just sold my shares.

Good for you. After the upgrade, their stock did go up. Don't usually follow, so not sure about now.
 

Nomad34

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That's the weakest argument we have.
I don't think any good attorney would advise filing a class action on contingency.

Any judge or jury will simply see you were using a loophole that's been closed. No different than a tax loophole closed. Tax loopholes were even law.

Even if it's determined to be a verbal communication it was a loophole the sales weasel informed you of and now it's closed. Again your tax adviser informed you of a loophole and now it's gone.

My 2 cents worth
The only class action I filled out for was ruled out because I didn't owe for any deeds. The last effort was September 2014 that seemed to spark the exit of the trust from Wyndham. One couple was paying over $450 fees and high interest on loan so I am glad they got out Scott free. I was told when I bought Daytona I could rernt it during the race week for at least $4000 but I never did until I was asked why and when I tried it was all booked. I never felt comfortable renting unless I knew the person. Wyndham has kept up most all of its inventory unlike RCI and other TS. I will say that my sales meetings this year have been brief and pleasant. They still want my deeds but they are not up for penny sales or ftrr to Ovations. Anyone interested will have to make offers to Buy a Timeshare until I am released from their tentacles.
 

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Thanks Ron for posting this. I like the highlighted paper version better. Have questions (no surprise, right?)

1) Is there anything in this trust statement that tells us that WYN cannot take reservations, either as owner or developer, pretty much all year long?
2) Regardless of the trust language, do we have any way, as owners, to police what is actually being pulled out specifically for WYN's use (don't care if it is for them as owner or developer -- want to know if there is any transparancy available to us)
3) Are there any schedules, ledgers or accounting documents available to the owners that support the ratio limitations (such as they are) stated in the trust?
4) How, specifically, outside of the written legaleze, does separation get made between "Wyndham" and the "Trustee?" Who / what IS the Trustee? ("...occupancy related expenses shall be determine by the Trustee")



Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely!!!
Not asking to be contrary or snarky. Asking because I do not fully understand all of the nuances of this trust language and fully acknowlege your superior experience with this kind of stuff. And, I want to better understand how the following criteria fits into the equation:

1) Wyndham manages and controls the reservation system, which is also a type of inventory management system
2) Wyndham controls the points accounting system which is the currency used for FIFO extraction of the inventory.
3) Wyndham is both owner AND manager yet has SOLE access to the back-end detail of both the inventory and currency accounting
4 As manager of the points accounting system do operational protocols exist for regular reconciliation of owner points? If so, how do we, as owners get access to those reconciliations?
 

Jmama9643

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Was very useful. Maybe a little more stress as along with my rebooks and upgrades I was going after other inventory that came available as well. Sometimes 15-20 browsers open tagging everything for 15 minutes so I could get a VC to upgrade etc. The real upside was I had the rest of the day free.


They put an end to that also. You cannot grab more than one unit at a time with the same login/ownership.
 

Jmama9643

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I would have NEVER Bought all the points I currently own if I had known that Wyndham would take away the ability to Cancel And Rebook like the SALES PEOPLE TOLD US WE COULD DO!!! The 'Full' cost of points to make reservations at some of these locations is TOTALLY REDICULOUS!!! ie… 350k points for a STUDIO Presidential at Avon!!!??? Really!? $2000 for a Freaking Studio Week!!! And that is becoming the Norm with the newer resorts! I will NOT stay at Any of the newer resorts without my 50% discount because it is SUCH A RIPOFF!!! AND, I am NOW seeing Wyndham is Raising the amount of points needed to reserve units as some resorts!!?? I thought that was supposed to be locked in FOR EVER per the LYING SALES PEOPLE!! So, Not Only are our MF's going up EVERY YEAR! But NOW it is costing even MORE POINTS to reserve the same units!!! Wyndham has SURE SHAFTED Us VIP OWNERS! I am going to have to seriously consider selling ALL of my points when I am done with them because of the way Wyndham has been Screwing us Owners! I do NOT Want to strap my children with their REDICULOUS Changes.! They just keep taking, and taking, and taking! I used to Praise Fairfield, and Wyndham, but not anymore with all of the Screwings they have been handing out!
 

Sandi Bo

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Where are you seeing points needed for a reservation changing? I thought that took almost an act of God to make happen. I was not aware of any changes in that area.
 

55plus

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I would have NEVER Bought all the points I currently own if I had known that Wyndham would take away the ability to Cancel And Rebook like the SALES PEOPLE TOLD US WE COULD DO!!! The 'Full' cost of points to make reservations at some of these locations is TOTALLY REDICULOUS!!! ie… 350k points for a STUDIO Presidential at Avon!!!??? Really!? $2000 for a Freaking Studio Week!!! And that is becoming the Norm with the newer resorts! I will NOT stay at Any of the newer resorts without my 50% discount because it is SUCH A RIPOFF!!! AND, I am NOW seeing Wyndham is Raising the amount of points needed to reserve units as some resorts!!?? I thought that was supposed to be locked in FOR EVER per the LYING SALES PEOPLE!! So, Not Only are our MF's going up EVERY YEAR! But NOW it is costing even MORE POINTS to reserve the same units!!! Wyndham has SURE SHAFTED Us VIP OWNERS! I am going to have to seriously consider selling ALL of my points when I am done with them because of the way Wyndham has been Screwing us Owners! I do NOT Want to strap my children with their REDICULOUS Changes.! They just keep taking, and taking, and taking! I used to Praise Fairfield, and Wyndham, but not anymore with all of the Screwings they have been handing out!
I don't know how long you've been an owner, but there is another way to work around the cancel and rebook roadblock. I call it, book, book and cancel. The reservations I need I book early at full points. Then, at 60 days out I start looking for the same reservation at half points. Or availability that will work for us. It works better If you are flexable. If/when availability comes available I book it and then cancel the other reservation I made at full points. I'm not familiar with with Avon, or the demand situation there or the number of units Wyndham has there, but it works at the larger resorts where we tend to visit. The chances of cancellations are better at larger resorts than small resorts. Once you figure out different ways to skin Wyndham's cats you'll be much happier. There is a learn curve. We've been owners since the early '90s when Fairfield started selling points. Whenever Wyndham throws lemons at us with a new policy we figure out how to make lemonade.

p.s. Sales Weasels lie and will say anything to steal your money and call it a commission.
 
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