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Cancel & Rebook - no longer possible?

scootr5

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Isn't there a limit on that ability - ie. that they cannot take the last 10% of the available inventory? So if the resort has 10 2BR's open 60 days out, that Wyndham can only take 9 of those units.

That's correct, until the 30 day mark.
 
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cyseitz

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Isn't there a limit on that ability - ie. that they cannot take the last 10% of the available inventory? So if the resort has 10 2BR's open 60 days out, that Wyndham can only take 9 of those units.
Used to be that I could be looking for something at BCR 3 weeks to check in. I constantly check for a reservation and then BAM 9 -10 days to check in the calendar floods with availability up to 3 weeks to check in. I ended up getting the reservation that I wanted, but I didn't like that I knew that Wyndham was holding on to reservations like that.
 

comicbookman

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Used to be that I could be looking for something at BCR 3 weeks to check in. I constantly check for a reservation and then BAM 9 -10 days to check in the calendar floods with availability up to 3 weeks to check in. I ended up getting the reservation that I wanted, but I didn't like that I knew that Wyndham was holding on to reservations like that.

Remember, Wyndham is the largest points OWNER in the system. I believe their ability to grab at 60 days is based on this fact and is actually a limitation. They do pay MR on those points. While Wyndham grabbing reservations at 60 days sucks for us VIP owners, it leaves 8 months for all owners to grab a reservation.
 

ronparise

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Remember, Wyndham is the largest points OWNER in the system. I believe their ability to grab at 60 days is based on this fact and is actually a limitation. They do pay MR on those points. While Wyndham grabbing reservations at 60 days sucks for us VIP owners, it leaves 8 months for all owners to grab a reservation.

are you saying that wyndham has to wait until the 60 day mark to make reservations with points they own?
 

comicbookman

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are you saying that wyndham has to wait until the 60 day mark to make reservations with points they own?

It could be read that way. Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark. I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all. It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.
 

raygo123

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It could be read that way. Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark. I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all. It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.
60 days is when platinum VIP kicks in and when the cancel rebook starts.

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Nomad34

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Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed? second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?
so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?
When I purchased at the lodge in sevierville in 2012 I requested it be placed in my trust with Fairfield Owners Association and later saw it was placed in the trust in Little Rock but was also a part of CWA with their address in Orlando. This past November the trust voted out of CWA it seems but I am not sure. That would mean the deeded property is no longer part of CWA, right?
 

CO skier

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are you saying that wyndham has to wait until the 60 day mark to make reservations with points they own?
It could be read that way. Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark. I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all. It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.

Emphasis added:

"11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use."
 

comicbookman

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Emphasis added:

"11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use."

when I was reading it, somehow the first sentence got cut off the printout. That seems pretty clear.
 

ronparise

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It could be read that way. Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark. I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all. It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.


heres what it says in the trust agreement (i see I was a little slow getting this posted Looks like this is the third quote from the trust agreement)

wyndham has two sets of rights, one as an owner like the rest of us, and one as developer/manager

wyndham reservations per trust.JPG
 

BellaWyn

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heres what it says in the trust agreement (i see I was a little slow getting this posted Looks like this is the third quote from the trust agreement)

wyndham has two sets of rights, one as an owner like the rest of us, and one as developer/manager

View attachment 4144
Thanks Ron for posting this. I like the highlighted paper version better. Have questions (no surprise, right?)

1) Is there anything in this trust statement that tells us that WYN cannot take reservations, either as owner or developer, pretty much all year long?
2) Regardless of the trust language, do we have any way, as owners, to police what is actually being pulled out specifically for WYN's use (don't care if it is for them as owner or developer -- want to know if there is any transparancy available to us)
3) Are there any schedules, ledgers or accounting documents available to the owners that support the ratio limitations (such as they are) stated in the trust?
4) How, specifically, outside of the written legaleze, does separation get made between "Wyndham" and the "Trustee?" Who / what IS the Trustee? ("...occupancy related expenses shall be determine by the Trustee")

Not asking to be contrary or snarky. Asking because I do not fully understand all of the nuances of this trust language and fully acknowlege your superior experience with this kind of stuff. And, I want to better understand how the following criteria fits into the equation:

1) Wyndham manages and controls the reservation system, which is also a type of inventory management system
2) Wyndham controls the points accounting system which is the currency used for FIFO extraction of the inventory.
3) Wyndham is both owner AND manager yet has SOLE access to the back-end detail of both the inventory and currency accounting
4 As manager of the points accounting system do operational protocols exist for regular reconciliation of owner points? If so, how do we, as owners get access to those reconciliations?
 

ronparise

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Thanks Ron for posting this. I like the highlighted paper version better. Have questions (no surprise, right?)

1) Is there anything in this trust statement that tells us that WYN cannot take reservations, either as owner or developer, pretty much all year long?
2) Regardless of the trust language, do we have any way, as owners, to police what is actually being pulled out specifically for WYN's use (don't care if it is for them as owner or developer -- want to know if there is any transparancy available to us)
3) Are there any schedules, ledgers or accounting documents available to the owners that support the ratio limitations (such as they are) stated in the trust?
4) How, specifically, outside of the written legaleze, does separation get made between "Wyndham" and the "Trustee?" Who / what IS the Trustee? ("...occupancy related expenses shall be determine by the Trustee")

Not asking to be contrary or snarky. Asking because I do not fully understand all of the nuances of this trust language and fully acknowlege your superior experience with this kind of stuff. And, I want to better understand how the following criteria fits into the equation:

1) Wyndham manages and controls the reservation system, which is also a type of inventory management system
2) Wyndham controls the points accounting system which is the currency used for FIFO extraction of the inventory.
3) Wyndham is both owner AND manager yet has SOLE access to the back-end detail of both the inventory and currency accounting
4 As manager of the points accounting system do operational protocols exist for regular reconciliation of owner points? If so, how do we, as owners get access to those reconciliations?

God knows I dont understand all this trust stuff either

Im a big picture kind of guy and heres how I see the big picture

There is a trust called the Fairshare Trust that holds all our use rights and provides the mechanism for exchange. Its what makes it possible for us, to own at one resort and use that ownership to make reservations at any of the other resorts in the system..

There is a Trustee that manages the trust.

Our trustee is the Fairshare Vacation Owners Association and we are all members

The Association has a board of directors, There are 3 individuals on the board, all appointed by Wyndham. There is a provision in the bylaws that allows for an expansion to 7 members. but that has never been done

So

I cant answer your questions, but more than that, neither your questions nor the answers interest me.

What I know is that this is Wyndham's thing. They make the rules. and Im free to play or not.
As long as my ownership provides me with vacation accommodations when and where I want and at a price that makes sense to me Im happy and I dont much care what wyndhan gets out of it

That attitude is whats behind my usual advice which is. Dont bother complaining or fighting the way things are. Accept what is and adapt
 

Nomad34

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God knows I dont understand all this trust stuff either

Im a big picture kind of guy and heres how I see the big picture

There is a trust called the Fairshare Trust that holds all our use rights and provides the mechanism for exchange. Its what makes it possible for us, to own at one resort and use that ownership to make reservations at any of the other resorts in the system..

There is a Trustee that manages the trust.

Our trustee is the Fairshare Vacation Owners Association and we are all members

The Association has a board of directors, There are 3 individuals on the board, all appointed by Wyndham. There is a provision in the bylaws that allows for an expansion to 7 members. but that has never been done

So

I cant answer your questions, but more than that, neither your questions nor the answers interest me.

What I know is that this is Wyndham's thing. They make the rules. and Im free to play or not.
As long as my ownership provides me with vacation accommodations when and where I want and at a price that makes sense to me Im happy and I dont much care what wyndhan gets out of it

That attitude is whats behind my usual advice which is. Dont bother complaining or fighting the way things are. Accept what is and adapt
Thank you for your thoughts and I agree that complaining or fighting will not change the big picture. However, it does seem that the value of deeds has been deminished over time with CWA being introduced.
 

BellaWyn

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So, why bother with all of the previous discussions of the trust in the first place?

And, at this juncture are you actually still "free to play or not" or now looking in from the sidelines because you no longer "have a dog in the fight."

Regardless, point taken. Shut up, stop asking questions and hope we can get some level of "play" out of what we own in the Wyndham designed and controled chaotic system. It's their thing. Roll over all you owners out there and feel lucky we let you play in the sandbox, litered with debrie as it is, and make sure you keep writing those MF checks because we have a way of making you miserable if you don't (because it's our thing) and please don't get frustrated with not being able to make reservations to places you want to go, just be happy that you get to go to places that are leftover after we pulled out what we wanted first because those MF are just chump change and we can't promise you that just because you pay them you will get what we promised in return, because OBTW, we lied to you about that..... sorry, it's our thing.


OK, that WAS snark. And your opinion about it has no interest to me.
 

Bigrob

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I think we would like better transparency into what "is". Regardless of whether what "is" is fair or not, we are not even clear what "it" is. Based on the language in the agreement, Wyndham has two separate rights; one to book at any point (as owner of points); and one to book within 60 days ("developer rights"). It would be helpful to understand what Wyndham is actually doing with each of these rights, regardless of whether we agree that those rights are legitimate and/or create any OCI issues.

Particular questions that I have are:

1) how many reservations are made by Wyndham beyond 60 days? At what times and at what resorts?
2) for reservations taken within 60 days; are actual points taken from Wyndham account(s) to hold these reservations? How is the 10% of inventory preserved? systematically? (shudder)
3) for reservations taken within 30 days; (could be ALL remaining inventory) - same question, are points taken from Wyndham account(s) to hold these reservations
4) for reservations held that enter the cancellation window, does Wyndham forfeit points if the reservations are subsequently released?

The point being, Wyndham should not have the ability to reserve as much inventory as may be allowed in the trust language, throughout the course of the year.

I would also guess that there is at least some consideration that it is not a sustainable model for Wyndham to reserve all the desirable reservations ahead of owners. If that were the case, Ron may have had more difficulty getting his Mardi Gras reservations.
 

ronparise

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So, why bother with all of the previous discussions of the trust in the first place?

And, at this juncture are you actually still "free to play or not" or now looking in from the sidelines because you no longer "have a dog in the fight."

Regardless, point taken. Shut up, stop asking questions and hope we can get some level of "play" out of what we own in the Wyndham designed and controled chaotic system. It's their thing. Roll over all you owners out there and feel lucky we let you play in the sandbox, litered with debrie as it is, and make sure you keep writing those MF checks because we have a way of making you miserable if you don't (because it's our thing) and please don't get frustrated with not being able to make reservations to places you want to go, just be happy that you get to go to places that are leftover after we pulled out what we wanted first because those MF are just chump change and we can't promise you that just because you pay them you will get what we promised in return, because OBTW, we lied to you about that..... sorry, it's our thing.


OK, that WAS snark. And your opinion about it has no interest to me.

For me the reason to discuss the trust is to have at least a general understanding of the club and my place in it

And at this juncture I don't own anything Wyndham, although there are a few contracts still snaking their way through the the transfer process. The accounts that hold those contracts are frozen

But I am still active, As an agent I am building two 5 million point Platinum accounts for others, and Ill manage them to provide a little side income for each of us. .. however these new rules are making that look like a bad idea. Going forward, l'll probably just broker sales (look for me on ebay)

as to the "snarky" part of your post, I would have said it differently, but yes, that sums up our position pretty well.
 
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ronparise

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I think we would like better transparency into what "is". Regardless of whether what "is" is fair or not, we are not even clear what "it" is. Based on the language in the agreement, Wyndham has two separate rights; one to book at any point (as owner of points); and one to book within 60 days ("developer rights"). It would be helpful to understand what Wyndham is actually doing with each of these rights, regardless of whether we agree that those rights are legitimate and/or create any OCI issues.

Particular questions that I have are:

1) how many reservations are made by Wyndham beyond 60 days? At what times and at what resorts?
2) for reservations taken within 60 days; are actual points taken from Wyndham account(s) to hold these reservations? How is the 10% of inventory preserved? systematically? (shudder)
3) for reservations taken within 30 days; (could be ALL remaining inventory) - same question, are points taken from Wyndham account(s) to hold these reservations
4) for reservations held that enter the cancellation window, does Wyndham forfeit points if the reservations are subsequently released?

The point being, Wyndham should not have the ability to reserve as much inventory as may be allowed in the trust language, throughout the course of the year.

I would also guess that there is at least some consideration that it is not a sustainable model for Wyndham to reserve all the desirable reservations ahead of owners. If that were the case, Ron may have had more difficulty getting his Mardi Gras reservations.


I agree completely, Wyndham shouldnt have the ability to reserve as much inventory as the trust allows.

But it does and they do

With apologies to George Bernard Shaw and Bobbie Kennedy: “Some men see things as they are and say, why; I ask, so now what?”
 

raygo123

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Yes, but that is not relevant to whether wyndham can make reservations before 60 days.
I know. I was answering your question as to what it has to do with anything.

As far as Wyndham being able to make reservations before that? Why couldn't they? I know for certain they do it for discovery.

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ecwinch

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Ron's position is essentially a restate of the serenity prayer. It is good advice IMHO. The art is in having the wisdom to recognize what can be charged (and what cannot).
 

IT Guy

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But I am still active, As an agent I am building two 5 million point Platinum accounts for others, and Ill manage them to provide a little side income for each of us. .. however these new rules are making that look like a bad idea. Going forward, ll probably just broker sales (look for me on ebay)

Ron, I am also thinking the new rules make renting look like a bad idea. Your plans to broker sales may be a much needed service. I am at the cross-roads of giving some contracts back through Ovation or selling them. Are you ready to start that brokering service? I've forgotten how to send a PM on this forum or I would have done that.
 

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Ron, I am also thinking the new rules make renting look like a bad idea. Your plans to broker sales may be a much needed service. I am at the cross-roads of giving some contracts back through Ovation or selling them. Are you ready to start that brokering service? I've forgotten how to send a PM on this forum or I would have done that.

Click on the person's name and then in the pop up, click "Start a Conversation"
 

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So, why bother with all of the previous discussions of the trust in the first place?

And, at this juncture are you actually still "free to play or not" or now looking in from the sidelines because you no longer "have a dog in the fight."

Regardless, point taken. Shut up, stop
Ron, I am also thinking the new rules make renting look like a bad idea. Your plans to broker sales may be a much needed service. I am at the cross-roads of giving some contracts back through Ovation or selling them. Are you ready to start that brokering service? I've forgotten how to send a PM on this forum or I would have done that.

Not yet. I'll be selling the 6 million points I bought since the first of the year, first. (most of which haven't yet settled)
 

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It could be read that way. Otherwise I don't see why the reference to the 60 day mark. I would think if Wyndham can grab reservations at 10 or even 13(with arp) months, there would be no availability for high demand weeks, as Wyn has enough points to grab them all. It makes no sense to limit them from taking everything only at 60 days.
My understanding is that they can grab ANY inventory after 60 days including that which would be beyond their ownership value but they have to leave 10% on the owner's market. I think this is essentially a bonus for them. The other reason I think this is that there are lots of units on extra holidays much farther out than 60 days so they are getting that inventory from somewhere other than owners placing it there.
 

CO skier

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The other reason I think this is that there are lots of units on extra holidays much farther out than 60 days so they are getting that inventory from somewhere other than owners placing it there.
If an owner wanted to recover some maintenance fees through an Extra Holidays rental, wouldn't they reserve the best reservation available at 13 months or 10 months to turn in to Extra Holidays?

If Wyndham wanted to reserve the best inventory for Extra Holidays, they would have just captured all the cancel/rebook attempts inside of 60 days. The fact that cancel/rebook was so successful under the old system argues against your assumption.
 
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