• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Cancel & Rebook - no longer possible?

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
Wyndham's obligation is to grow stock for investors. THAT is all. Happy campers (timeshare owners) are a side or 2nd obligation. first to grow stock you need to sell a product successfully. They have done that. I don't know about now? What about Margarettaville? Wonder how that is going? Wyndham was starting to build again I wonder how sales will be if owners start attending again and saying they got shafted. Look to stock to drop. I just sold my shares.

From 65 to 100 in the last year. You had a good run. It was probably time to sell anyway

As you say this mess with the website and the return of VIP benefits to design may cause a dip in sales but I doubt that it will be permanent. There's more to Wyndham than timeshares. And if the folks here are right their rental division ought to pick up the slack

The real test will be when they spin off the timeshare division. If the combined valuation of the two companies isn't more than Wyndham worldwide is today, I'd be surprised
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Messages
10
Reaction score
5
Points
1
Resorts Owned
smoky mountains Bonnett creek
The spin off will come it is just going to be when. As to the value it depends on the economy at the time. I think resale just got a boost.
 

BellaWyn

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
370
Points
293
Location
Western US
From 65 to 100 in the last year. You had a good run. It was probably time to sell anyway

As you say this mess with the website and the return of VIP benefits to design may cause a dip in sales but I doubt that it will be permanent. There's more to Wyndham than timeshares. And if the folks here are right their rental division ought to pick up the slack
The real test will be when they spin off the timeshare division. If the combined valuation of the two companies isn't more than Wyndham worldwide is today, I'd be surprised
Which improves profitability significantly on a faster scale.

Engineered chaos, dominos falling exactly to plan. Smoke & mirrors people. Connect the dots! They may seem random but a pattern exists.
 

spackler

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
586
Reaction score
247
Points
153
Location
US
Resorts Owned
Quarter House, Jean Lafitte House, Bali Hai
Platinum no more book re-book for less. Time to voice your concerns and how the system and promises are not being kept.

There were never any contractual promises of discounts, only verbal ones...which don't mean squat.
 

Jan M.

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
4,486
Reaction score
5,844
Points
548
Location
Tamarac, FL
Resorts Owned
Wyndham Presidential Reserve at Panama City Beach
Club Wyndham Access
Grandview Las Vegas and Discovery Beach Resort - Both in RCI Points
Woodstone and Summit at Massanutten - Both in RCI weeks used as Wyndham PICs
Anything except your actual deed that Wyndham puts in writing is subject to change.
 
Last edited:

cayman01

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
630
Reaction score
217
Points
103
Location
Tampa Bay, FL
Resorts Owned
Bali Hai, Shearwater
That's just "book." Not "cancel and rebook".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Call it a lack of morning coffee. What I was trying to say is check to see if there is existing inventory for the room you want to cancel. If there is then book it first before you cancel the old one. If there isn't any inventory do NOT take the chance because, as many have stated previously, the room doesn't come back in any kind of timely manner..
 

vacationhopeful

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
12,760
Reaction score
1,699
Points
498
Location
Northeast USA
Real estate sales people are "contractual and commissioned staff" who actually are employed by the REAL ESTATE broker who owns the broker's license and who pays them via his company. Wyndham signs a contract with the broker's company to staff and sell on a commission basis ... most likely RENTS the sales space to the broker & his company, pays the lighting & phone bills, etc.

If you are selling your HOUSE, why does your sales broker want YOU gone with no contact with the buyer til the settlement table?

No binding promises or statement of condition .... the realtor's job is to manage the buyer, put the best spin on the product and to keep the price as high as possible.
 

Jan M.

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
4,486
Reaction score
5,844
Points
548
Location
Tamarac, FL
Resorts Owned
Wyndham Presidential Reserve at Panama City Beach
Club Wyndham Access
Grandview Las Vegas and Discovery Beach Resort - Both in RCI Points
Woodstone and Summit at Massanutten - Both in RCI weeks used as Wyndham PICs
Real estate sales people are "contractual and commissioned staff" who actually are employed by the REAL ESTATE broker who owns the broker's license and who pays them via his company. Wyndham signs a contract with the broker's company to staff and sell on a commission basis ... most likely RENTS the sales space to the broker & his company, pays the lighting & phone bills, etc.

Ahhh...that explains a great deal!
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
Real estate sales people are "contractual and commissioned staff" who actually are employed by the REAL ESTATE broker who owns the broker's license and who pays them via his company. Wyndham signs a contract with the broker's company to staff and sell on a commission basis ... most likely RENTS the sales space to the broker & his company, pays the lighting & phone bills, etc.

If you are selling your HOUSE, why does your sales broker want YOU gone with no contact with the buyer til the settlement table?

No binding promises or statement of condition .... the realtor's job is to manage the buyer, put the best spin on the product and to keep the price as high as possible.
May I ask to what this is in relation? Wyndham sales people do not need a license, they are selling either their own product or membership to a club.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk
 

BellaWyn

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
370
Points
293
Location
Western US
May I ask to what this is in relation? Wyndham sales people do not need a license, they are selling either their own product or membership to a club.
Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk
These days most ALL states require that, even with TS sales, if it's a contract for REAL property, it has to be sold by a licensed realtor. Note that I said MOST ALL, not all states because it still will fall to the governing state where the property resides.

How that works with a CWA points contract.... no idea. :shrug: The CWA gurus will need to weigh in.
 

vacationhopeful

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
12,760
Reaction score
1,699
Points
498
Location
Northeast USA
May I ask to what this is in relation? Wyndham sales people do not need a license, they are selling either their own product or membership to a club.

Robert, I know ...because a very good friend whose job was that of a Hang Tag girl want to Sell timeshares at the resort and make the BIG MONEY. She took the Florida State Real Estate Licensing course, passed the FL state exam and THEN got into sales to sell timeshare points (at the Wyndham Royal Vista Resort ... top floor). No State License, NO SELLING TIMESHARES for Wyndham. Theirreal estate broker employs them and the broker's contract is to SELL WYndham's deeded timeshare product. She ONLY got commission checks as payment for services if she SOLD something or participated in a sales transaction.

Now, your statement MIGHT be partial TRUE ... if Club Wyndham Access is only a club ... with a certificate and not a real estate deed. But I would BET, that a license state broker has insurance (facts, omission and misrepresentation insurance) and if the agent is licensed and receives a commission) ... WHY would Wyndham want o reinvent the wheel AND remove that 'wall of liability separation' between themselves and their loyal real estate PROFESSIONALs?

Dyed bad EGGS will stink up the Easter basket as quickly as eggs just hard boiled if left for a month out in the HOT SUN.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Messages
10
Reaction score
5
Points
1
Resorts Owned
smoky mountains Bonnett creek
There were never any contractual promises of discounts, only verbal ones...which don't mean squat.
You are exactly correct it is meaningless UNLESS we open our mouths and join in voice about the lies and lack of keeping what they say to us for a sale. Owners will need to bring these up at owners up dates or a sales pitch to new buyers. Opps in the new material is a part about Wyndham owners can be in poor standing for many different reason(including negative actions) NOT those words but it does state they can payback.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Messages
10
Reaction score
5
Points
1
Resorts Owned
smoky mountains Bonnett creek
Which improves profitability significantly on a faster scale.

Engineered chaos, dominos falling exactly to plan. Smoke & mirrors people. Connect the dots! They may seem random but a pattern exists.
When can the rental division get a rental? Under the deeded property for timeshare it has to be made available for exchange until a certain time probably 15 days before the date. I find many Wyndham properties listed for rent on expedia and others. How do they get the inventory? Wyndham holds some as rentals then that should reflect in ownership and maintenance fees yearly statement?
 

BellaWyn

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
370
Points
293
Location
Western US
When can the rental division get a rental? Under the deeded property for timeshare it has to be made available for exchange until a certain time probably 15 days before the date. I find many Wyndham properties listed for rent on expedia and others. How do they get the inventory? Wyndham holds some as rentals then that should reflect in ownership and maintenance fees yearly statement?
Dude! They CONTROL the inventory system. They are first in line for EVERYTHING. Overthinking this is just going to explode your brain. They take what they need/want, when they want it and do with it whatever best suits their purpose.

Not new information. Now ask if we can do anything about it.

Highly likely you will get answers back that say "NO!"

Do we like it, no. Can we do anything about it. NO.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Messages
10
Reaction score
5
Points
1
Resorts Owned
smoky mountains Bonnett creek
Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed? second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?
so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed? second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?
so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?
No, it really depends on who controls the HOA. It is not just access. It I'd all deeds changed to points. The points "club" sits on top of the deeds, if Wyndham controls board,they control resort. Now, everyone who changed to points, felt it I'd a good idea.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk
 
Joined
May 29, 2017
Messages
23
Reaction score
5
Points
3
Resorts Owned
Wyndham
Yes, but they didn't need a new system to do that. I believe they've always had the ability to control when reservations come back. Maybe not random (but how hard could that be). Perhaps the new system allows them to grab them back easier for Extra Holidays?

One thing I never understood, in the past, was the overly helpfulness of VC's to help you with a cancel/rebook. If Wyndham really wanted to get rid of it, why were they so helpful - actually encouraging. Towards the end (of the old system) I was suspicious some were intentionally losing reservations. I would cancel and could see it in the system, and they couldn't. But usually I felt they were quite proud of their success rate, seems like we saw more incompetencies in last few months.

Can only guess that from a sales angle they wanted that helpfulness. Will be real interesting to see what kind of spin sales can put on this, and how the value of the VIP program can be touted (salvaged). Resales looking better all the time!
I agree with everything you stated but my dealings with Cancel/Rebook was that the VCs always seemed to be trying to talk me out of you. I only lost one in about 15 years that I used Cancel/Rebook. I always felt that the sales people had pushed that to get us to buy up to Platinum but then the phone people were trying to do the opposite. It was very strange. It seemed to me if they could talk us out of using our option then Wyndham would benefit. That's just how I felt.
 

ecwinch

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,731
Reaction score
1,119
Points
748
Location
San Antonio
Resorts Owned
Marriott Harbour Point (HP), Kauai Beach Villas, Riverside Suites, WorldMark Pts (WM), Wyndham Pts
They did away with you RCI upgrades 4-5 years ago now book re-book for less points is gone PIC weeks are next? Limited pic weeks 5-6 years ago. Is this a beach of contract?

This was the angle a number of lawsuits pursued after the last round of program changes. That Wyndham was not engaging in fair dealing - that while they promoting the benefits of reach VIP status - they also were planning program changes that would preclude those benefits from being used in the manner they were encouraging people to buy them for. I dont believe those lawsuits resulted in any meaningful compensation.
 

vacationhopeful

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
12,760
Reaction score
1,699
Points
498
Location
Northeast USA
1)Who owns the timeshare if it is a deed?

2)second question if we the deed ones own the property can't we be more involved in what is done?

3)so all of those who bought into Wyndham access have created a big part of this newer problem since they no longer own deeds?

1.
A deed timeshare has the owner listed on the deed. And the deed needs to be recorded.

2. Each deeded unit has 50 to 51 owners of it ... 1 week is usually kept for maintenance & out of service units in a resort. Can you get you 4 other siblings to agree to anything? Try getting 50+ owners of each week for a unit who all have their own desires and issues to agree on ANYTHING... much less anything involving money .... not going to happen.

3. Those who brought into CWA did NOT CREATE this problem. "CWA by Wyndham" was a very smart move to divide each resort's fixed week owner base ... from 50 deeded interval owners times 100 units (5000 owners) into a millions of owners ... all owning a very small piece of a (their) trust from sea to shining sea. CWP was a start but HOA meetings held still had interested owners participating and meeting other owners .. I know at one CWP HOA meeting, I found lots of other owners who owned as many or more CWP at their resort ... the VP closed the yearly meeting and RAN out ... when I asked a question and a block of mega-CWP owners for that resort ... chimed in.

So yes, Andrew, CWA owners do not own a particular resort. CWP owners .. like Bonnet Creek can number into the a hundred thousand or more owners (51 weeks times 600 units could be 31000 owners if a fixed week resort) but a CWP points owners could have been SOLD a deeded point contract as low as 7,000 CWP up to a 1,000,000 CWP contract (maybe even more).

I know CWP contracts do go up to a 1,000,000 points ... I have 1 of those.
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
This was the angle a number of lawsuits pursued after the last round of program changes. That Wyndham was not engaging in fair dealing - that while they promoting the benefits of reach VIP status - they also were planning program changes that would preclude those benefits from being used in the manner they were encouraging people to buy them for. I dont believe those lawsuits resulted in any meaningful compensation.

And even if there was compensation it was on a case by case basis and it took over 5 years to get to the point where the parties would settle. And the rules that prompted the lawsuits still stand

So if anyone is tempted to sue. Good luck with that
 

BellaWyn

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
370
Points
293
Location
Western US
1. A deed timeshare has the owner listed on the deed. And the deed needs to be recorded.

2. Each deeded unit has 50 to 51 owners of it ... 1 week is usually kept for maintenance & out of service units in a resort. Can you get you 4 other siblings to agree to anything? Try getting 50+ owners of each week for a unit who all have their own desires and issues to agree on ANYTHING... much less anything involving money .... not going to happen.

3. Those who brought into CWA did NOT CREATE this problem. "CWA by Wyndham" was a very smart move to divide each resort's fixed week owner base ... from 50 deeded interval owners times 100 units (5000 owners) into a millions of owners ... all owning a very small piece of a (their) trust from sea to shining sea. CWP was a start but HOA meetings held still had interested owners participating and meeting other owners .. I know at one CWP HOA meeting, I found lots of other owners who owned as many or more CWP at their resort ... the VP closed the yearly meeting and RAN out ... when I asked a question and a block of mega-CWP owners for that resort ... chimed in.

So yes, Andrew, CWA owners do not own a particular resort. CWP owners .. like Bonnet Creek can number into the a hundred thousand or more owners (51 weeks times 600 units could be 31000 owners if a fixed week resort) but a CWP points owners could have been SOLD a deeded point contract as low as 7,000 CWP up to a 1,000,000 CWP contract (maybe even more).

I know CWP contracts do go up to a 1,000,000 points ... I have 1 of those. <--- Ditto this, me too. :rolleyes:
To add insult to injury in all of this, even before CWA was introduced for purchase to the owners, the portfolio was systematically being populated with intervals from many resorts, thus breaking up the possibility that any CWP unit could be controlled by owners. If you look at deed histories (especially at older resorts that were originally sold as FW), week intervals were handed off to CWA in batches. At this late date, even if you got all the owners of a single unit together (50-51 owners), at least one or MORE of the interval owners would be CWA.

It's been a slow initial extraction process of CWP deeds to populate CWA on the front end, but growth has been accelerated with the "take-back" programs we call Ovation, Tribute, Legacy. The dominoes have been systematically lined up pointing to CWA population. Next question is: What's the plan to make it go faster?

Engineer chaos. Strong-arm and intimidate high point owners into exiting (owner's loss, WYN gain for none to minimal capital outlay), rollout a piece of crap website that limits search and reservation booking ability, change owner rules to minimize owner ability to function the way sales taught them to function and arrest what they have been ALLOWED to do for 10+years, do not adequately communicate or train VC's on the new system which cripples their ability to service the owners - thereby creating antagonistic relationships between owners and VC reps, take a corporate posture of no apology and no accountability.... The list goes on and on.......

All this creates fear, frustration, discouragement and disillusionment which subsequently motivates owners to exit their contracts, many of which will get handed back through the take-back programs. The take-back programs put those contracts into CWA, thereby growing the club even faster.

"Yeah, but how do the MF's for all those points get paid?"
A: Wyn controls the system, they are first in line and have at least three + rental arms to sell off reservations to cover the MF's and still be profitable.

Think this wasn't planned? Causal analysis experts make pretty good money, especially the ones that have a history of success in the planned outcome. This has been on the design table for YEARS. We just happen to be standing in the storm.

But WYN got an unexpected "surprise" in the process of the suspensions didn't they..... Something they had not considered would happen. A giant "Uh-Oh" and scrambling for CYA accelerated the trigger date. The piece of the puzzle Ron cannot talk about.
 
Last edited:

Sandi Bo

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
5,083
Reaction score
4,642
Points
498
Location
Omaha
Resorts Owned
Wyndham
I've attempted to cancel/rebook twice. Both attempts were the smallest unit at the resort. One was Emerald Grande the other was great Smokey Mountain. Sadly the reservations fell into a black hole never to return. The Wyndham Representative said it is a live system and the reservation should return? I continued to check for hours but they never came back? I love the ability to cancel/rebook! Hopefully one day this will be possible? It's almost as if the new system releases inventory at random? If anyone could figure this out please share so we can all be helped
Did this happen since May 19th (new system). Because if so the VC totally mislead you. Cancellations in the new system are not coming back. Or at best extremely randomly. I read where one person thought theirs did - otherwise - nada.
 

comicbookman

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
973
Reaction score
321
Points
274
Location
Dillwyn, Virginia
To add insult to injury in all of this, even before CWA was introduced for purchase to the owners, the portfolio was systematically being populated with intervals from many resorts, thus breaking up the possibility that any CWP unit could be controlled by owners. If you look at deed histories (especially at older resorts that were originally sold as FW), week intervals were handed off to CWA in batches. At this late date, even if you got all the owners of a single unit together (50-51 owners), at least one or MORE of the interval owners would be CWA.

It's been a slow initial extraction process of CWP deeds to populate CWA on the front end, but growth has been accelerated with the "take-back" programs we call Ovation, Tribute, Legacy. The dominoes have been systematically lined up pointing to CWA population. Next question is: What's the plan to make it go faster?

Engineer chaos. Strong-arm high intimidate point owners into exiting (owner's loss, WYN gain for none to minimal capital outlay), rollout a piece of crap website that limits search and reservation booking ability, change owner rules to minimize owner ability to function the way sales taught them to function and arrest what they have been ALLOWED to do for 10+years, do not adequately communicate or train VC's on the new system which cripples their ability to service the owners - thereby creating antagonistic relationships between owners and VC reps, take a corporate posture of no apology and no accountability.... The list goes on and on.......

All this creates fear, frustration, discouragement and disillusionment which subsequently motivates owners to exit their contracts, many of which will get handed back through the take-back programs. The take-back programs put those contracts into CWA, thereby growing the club even faster.

"Yeah, but how do the MF's for all those points get paid?"
A: Wyn controls the system, they are first in line and have at least three + rental arms to sell off reservations to cover the MF's and still be profitable.

Think this wasn't planned? Causal analysis experts make pretty good money, especially the ones that have a history of success in the planned outcome. This has been on the design table for YEARS. We just happen to be standing in the storm.

But WYN got an unexpected "surprise" in the process of the suspensions didn't they..... Something they had not considered would happen. A giant "Uh-Oh" and scrambling for CYA accelerated the trigger date. The piece of the puzzle Ron cannot talk about.

Seriously?

While it is clear that Wyndham would love to move everyone to the CWA model, pushing people by screwing up the website launch is a ridiculous way to do it. The new rules were coming regardless. The suspensions clearly confused Wyndham. They could easily have moved people to CWA through positive marketing if they really wanted to do it quickly.

Ovation was so successful BEFORE the launch that they were already beginning to cherry pick deeds. They did not need to risk a public relations backlash to drive people to Ovation, an aging owner base was doing that for them. If they truly wanted to speed up CWA, they would stop selling deeds.

Wyndham's best model is to have both. That way they can pitch CWA to Deeded owners and Deeds to CWA owners as upgrades and "cures" for the problems on their account.

Botching the voyager launch is the least effective and least predictable path to the end game you propose. I think it is exactly what it appears to be, the result of a weak IT department (there is years of proof of that) and constantly changing goals, rules and strategies that the system needed to support. I doubt Wyndham corporate is smart enough to use engineered chaos as a plan.
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
When can the rental division get a rental? Under the deeded property for timeshare it has to be made available for exchange until a certain time probably 15 days before the date. I find many Wyndham properties listed for rent on expedia and others. How do they get the inventory? Wyndham holds some as rentals then that should reflect in ownership and maintenance fees yearly statement?
Wyndham can take unreserved inventory up to 60 days before check in to rent

they can also as a member themselves make reservations to rent with the points they own
 

ecwinch

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
3,731
Reaction score
1,119
Points
748
Location
San Antonio
Resorts Owned
Marriott Harbour Point (HP), Kauai Beach Villas, Riverside Suites, WorldMark Pts (WM), Wyndham Pts
Wyndham can take unreserved inventory up to 60 days before check in to rent

they can also as a member themselves make reservations to rent with the points they own
Isn't there a limit on that ability - ie. that they cannot take the last 10% of the available inventory? So if the resort has 10 2BR's open 60 days out, that Wyndham can only take 9 of those units.
 
Top