Another school shooting today

[Beefnot]

Any idea of who we/me/you could submit this suggestion to for consideration for partial solution?

Your local congressperson.

 

[TUGBrian]

submit it to both the brady campaign and the nra.

id be curious to see the responses from both.

 

[Beefnot]

Conversations about drunk driving occur after drunk driving episodes happen. Conversations about public transportation accidents happen after the accidents. Conversations about cribs that babies die in happen after those babies die. Conversations about terrorist actions take place after terrorist acts. And on and on and on and on ...

What, would you have us talk about mass shootings after airplane crashes?

How did we ever get to this place where an agenda for the betterment of society is a bad thing? Like I said before, it's all so sad.

SueDonJ, you and a few others in this thread have stepped outside ideology and provided level-headed approaches to acknowledging the existing of a problem, extending beyond mere controvertable facts (the lies, damn lies, and statistics) to artfully assessing the underlying rationale for the whats and whys of necessary change, and vigorously heading off some of the shadowboxing, straw men arguments made by some in this thread. This has been an enlightening thread for me.

 

[easyrider]

The 'Agenda' to protect our children and our lives....Not to bad an agenda to have

"Further their agenda." This is pure rhetoric, meant to incite but actually having no meaning at all. I've asked twice in this thread and you haven't answered it yet - if the "agenda" is a reasonable conversation about methods of curbing gun violence, why is an act of gun violence the wrong catalyst for that conversation? If episodes of gun violence happen every day and we are not supposed to bring up the conversation in the aftermath of such episodes, when will we be able to ask?

YES, there are many who are on TV spouting off about gun regulations and bans. There are many who love an opportunity to get in front of a camera and use the killings for ratings or improve their public image.

A reasonable conversation of curbing gun violence doesn't include bans on weapons that most of you have never even seen in real life. I would say that most people that are for greater gun control have never even fired a gun. I can also say that most people have no idea what gun is dangerous and what gun should be regulated.

One thing is for certain, if a person decided to kill you or your child with a gun you might suddenly be in favor of shooting them rather than to tell them the reason why your not going to shoot them is because you don't believe in guns or violence.

How about stabbings. This is the most common type of violent teen death and the most common fatal assault. Three million one hundred thousand people in the USA are stabbed each year. You are more likely to be assaulted with a knife than a gun.

So when the media focuses on one event and people get emotional and decide its time to do something without really knowing what they are talking about it becomes a knee jerk reaction that doesn't solve anything, imo.

Gun bans create more gun violence. Its been tried. It doesn't work.

Bill

 

[pianodinosaur]

When I was a resident at The University of Chicago, we had people with gunshot wounds and stab wounds come into the ER on a daily basis. The dope dealers have no difficulty getting guns. Most of their arsenal is aquired illegally. We do not need more laws to enforce gun control when we cannot even enforce the ones we have already.

I will remind you again that far more people are systematically butched by governments than by the occasional lunatic. The main reason for the second amendment is to that we can protect ourselves from the government should the government become oppressive. One of Hitler's first acts was to disarm the population. Then he went after the mentally ill. Then he went after the Jews, the gypsies, and the homosexuals. (National Socialist Workers Party. A Good Nazi was a Good National Socialist. ) Similar events have taken place in Russia under the purges, in China with the cultural revolution, Cambodia with the killing fields, and to all infidels that live within Islamic states. This is a matter of historical record that is not meant to be political or religious. This is something that happens whenever there exists a totalitarian police state. The only proven way to prevent a totalitarian police state is to have an armed population.

The USA has abandoned its founding principles. Unfortunately, our public schools are no longer able to teach about good vs evil and right vs wrong. Parents no longer have the freedom to discipline their children as they see fit. G-d is not allowed to be mentioned in the public schools. People who argue for the sanctity and protection of human life are publically vilified. People who argue that individuals should be held personally accountable for their own actions are publically vilified. Then people cry about how violent our society has become. We have reaped the whirlwind. A further discussion of good and evil would venture into religion and the role it has played in the history of our nation.

 

[Tia]

Will have to try to email with suggestion the NRA later as their website is down, says the connection was reset. Maye too busy.

 

[SueDonJ]

YES, there are many who are on TV spouting off about gun regulations and bans. There are many who love an opportunity to get in front of a camera and use the killings for ratings or improve their public image.

A reasonable conversation of curbing gun violence doesn't include bans on weapons that most of you have never even seen in real life. I would say that most people that are for greater gun control have never even fired a gun. I can also say that most people have no idea what gun is dangerous and what gun should be regulated.

One thing is for certain, if a person decided to kill you or your child with a gun you might suddenly be in favor of shooting them rather than to tell them the reason why your not going to shoot them is because you don't believe in guns or violence.

How about stabbings. This is the most common type of violent teen death and the most common fatal assault. Three million one hundred thousand people in the USA are stabbed each year. You are more likely to be assaulted with a knife than a gun.

So when the media focuses on one event and people get emotional and decide its time to do something without really knowing what they are talking about it becomes a knee jerk reaction that doesn't solve anything, imo.

Gun bans create more gun violence. Its been tried. It doesn't work.

Bill

And .... this is the moment when the conversation becomes an exercise in futility. It's too bad because I have enjoyed the discussion with, and have learned a few things from, the people who took part in it in a reasonable and respectful fashion.

Um, Bill? About what I bolded up there? In the wrong hands, ALL guns are dangerous and that's why ALL guns need to be regulated. IMO, the responsible gun owners don't question either of those two ideas.

 

[Elan]

It would be nice if folks here could distinguish between killing and mass killing like took place on Friday. I think we all realize we're not going to eradicate all gun related homicide. But that doesn't mean we can't make meaningful progress toward reducing the likelihood/magnitude of further mass slaughters. Had the shooter entered that school armed with only the Glock and Sig, there would have been far fewer casualties. There's absolutely no reason for guns such as the Bushmaster to be available to the public.

 

[CarolF]

For those who believe there is at a statistical decline in homicides, this article should be of interest:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324712504578131360684277812.html

The reported number of people treated for gunshot attacks from 2001 to 2011 has grown by nearly half. ...

"The potential for a victim to survive a wound is greater than it was 15 years ago."

In other words, more people in the U.S. are getting shot, but doctors have gotten better at patching them up. Improved medical care doesn't account for the entire decline in homicides but experts say it is a major factor.

 

[easyrider]

And .... this is the moment when the conversation becomes an exercise in futility. It's too bad because I have enjoyed the discussion with, and have learned a few things from, the people who took part in it in a reasonable and respectful fashion.

Um, Bill? About what I bolded up there? In the wrong hands, ALL guns are dangerous and that's why ALL guns need to be regulated. IMO, the responsible gun owners don't question either of those two ideas.

Susan, if you have read my other posts that is exactly what I have been saying. The main purpose of a gun is to kill. Guns were invented to kill. It doesn't matter if its an AR-15 or Glock 9 either weapon is capable of mass murder. Many of these guns are all ready in the wrong hands.

I have been nothing but respectful. The fact that its difficult to protect yourself from some one with a gun unless you have a gun is the real issue.

So tell me the solution. I feel the real solution starts with education and parenting. That will never happen.

So what is your great idea. I have read all your posts and do not see any thing that would work. Im sorry my explanation is deemed unworthy of your consideration but my opinion is as valid as yours. So when some one who owns guns and has used guns to deter crime like me has an opinion on guns and crime verus some one that doesn't even own a gun, I would conclude the person that has the experience has the better grasp of whats going on.

My guess is that security will get beefed up at many public places like schools. What else can we do ?

In Isreal teachers are required to carry a hand gun. Is that how we should protect school kids in the USA ?

Im not trying to do anything buy present real facts. In the real world there is a need for protection. Until that changes owning guns is the best way to accomplish that protection.

And really nothing posted has disturbed me one bit and I do apoligize if my posts have been distrubing in any way.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

For those who believe there is at a statistical decline in homicides, this article should be of interest:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324712504578131360684277812.html

While the doctors have made great progress in patching a gun shot patient in reality the guns of choice for most common criminals have become cheap low caliber .380. Back in the day when people were shot with revolvers most died on the scene.

Gangs are using more high caliber hand guns and other tactical weapons but these guys aren't common criminals for the most part.

Bill

 

[pianodinosaur]

And .... this is the moment when the conversation becomes an exercise in futility. It's too bad because I have enjoyed the discussion with, and have learned a few things from, the people who took part in it in a reasonable and respectful fashion.

Um, Bill? About what I bolded up there? In the wrong hands, ALL guns are dangerous and that's why ALL guns need to be regulated. IMO, the responsible gun owners don't question either of those two ideas.

Knives and forks are also dangerous. They have been banned in many prison systems because they are used to commit murder. The prisoners still find a way to make shanks so that they may continue to kill each other more efficiently. William Shakespeare's "Titus Andronicus" ends with the title character killing his adversary by shoving a spoon down his throat.

Evil people commit acts of Evil. Gag Me With a Spoon!!

Failure to oppose evil is also evil. Further discussion of this point would get into the realm of religion.

 

[Beefnot]

I would say that most people that are for greater gun control have never even fired a gun.

Maybe you're right, I dunno. I will say that I've fired a gun before, and I am for tighter gun control. So are 3/4 of NRA members.

Even if one were to accept the premise--which I don't by the way--that the frequency of gun violence would not be meaningfully reduced with tighter restrictions on who is permitted to own a gun, the types of guns and ammunition available, the maximum size of the magazines, etc., a very compelling logical case can be made that the magnitude of deaths that occur during such mass killing sprees could be significantly reduced. I say logical case, because it is impossible to prove a negative, which the no-gun-restrictions crowd will always look to have a field day with.

 

[Beefnot]

Knives and forks are also dangerous. They have been banned in many prison systems because they are used to commit murder. The prisoners still find a way to make shanks so that they may continue to kill each other more efficiently.

And so you're suggesting that the solution is that because prisoners will find a way anyway, restrictions of any kind on knives and forks in prisons are silly?

Or, would it make more sense to continually refine the restrictions to make it consistently more and more difficult to make shanks, even knowing that we will never guard against it 100%?

 

[pianodinosaur]

And so you're suggesting that the solution is that because prisoners will find a way anyway, restrictions of any kind on knives and forks in prisons are silly?

Or, would it make more sense to continually refine the restrictions to make it consistently more and more difficult to make shanks, even knowing that we will never guard against it 100%?

You miss the point. Banning knives, forks, and spoons in general society would be silly just because evil people will find a way to commit acts of evil. The kitchen utensil is an inanimate object that is incapable of good or evil or acting on it's own in any manner. The same thing is true of a gun. A gun may be used for good. That is why teachers in Israel are so armed.

The real issue is Evil. If you look at my earlier posts you may discover that we have raised a generation that does not understand this concept. That is our problem.

 

[Clemson Fan]

Hi folks. I haven't read this thread nor have I been to TUG since posting on this thread a few days back. Having 2 young boys with another one on the way, I find it extremely difficult just hearing about ANY story where children are harmed. There's nothing in this world I find more disturbing!

Anyway, I've always been kind of a closet pro gun control person that looked at the arguments of the NRA as kind of ridiculous and not really based in facts, but more scare tactics with cute little slogans or talk of a "slippery slope" against 2nd amendment rights. Well, this tragedy has spurred me to come out of the closet and I've donated and have joined the Brady Campaign. On an average day in the US, 71 adults and 8 children are killed by guns! When you compare this to other industrialized nations, this statistic is just absolutely disgusting! You can find the other facts about gun violence in the US here at this link:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/

After joining the Brady Campaign, I received the following message. BTW, there's no set membership fee and I think any sized donation can get you membership.


The Brady Campaign is busy working to pass sensible gun laws and policies at the local, state, and federal levels and we educate Americans about the dangers of guns. Our vision is to create an America free from gun violence, where all are safe at home, at school, at work, and in our communities.

In contrast, the National Rifle Association (NRA) wants guns in every nook and cranny of American life — even when it tramples on the rights and liberty of your family and community. Their vision for America is dangerous and costs lives every day. On a typical day, 79 Americans will die from guns, including eight children. We must stop the scourge of gun violence that is destroying our communities.

The NRA wants to force employers to allow employees to bring guns onto workplace property and they plan to push their “Guns in the Workplace” laws to all 50 states including your state. For more information about “Guns in the Workplace” legislation and to read the Brady Center’s groundbreaking report Forced Entry: The National Rifle Association’s Campaign To Force Businesses To Accept Guns At Work, go to: www.bradycenter.org

The NRA also wants to export Florida’s deadly “Shoot First” law, which allows anyone to shoot to kill anytime they feel threatened, to every state in the nation! To date, the NRA has introduced this shameful legislation in eight more states, in addition to Florida where this law took effect October 1, 2005. For more information and to take action, go to: www.shootfirstlaw.org

Again, thank you for your membership and standing strong for sensible gun laws. It means so much to have you with us!

Sincerely,

Sarah Brady, Chair
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

 

[am1]

Whats going to happen when people are able to print guns at home on their computer?

The US does not need a war on illegal guns entering the country.

Banning things just makes them more in demand. Guns on their own do not cause problems. Illegal drugs on their own do cause problems.

 

[Beefnot]

Whats going to happen when people are able to print guns at home on their computer?

The US does not need a war on illegal guns entering the country.

Banning things just make them more in demand. Guns on their own do not cause problems. Illegal drugs do.

I thought the gunman had a mental problem, not a drug problem

 

[Beefnot]

You miss the point. Banning knives, forks, and spoons in general society would be silly just because evil people will find a way to commit acts of evil. The kitchen utensil is an inanimate object that is incapable of good or evil or acting on it's own in any manner. The same thing is true of a gun. A gun may be used for good. That is why teachers in Israel are so armed.

The real issue is Evil. If you look at my earlier posts you may discover that we have raised a generation that does not understand this concept. That is our problem.

No, I got the point. Any instrument can be used for good or evil, but that doesn't really mean anything. I am all for trying to constrain the evil nature I believe is innately within humankind. I am also for restricting those for whom these efforts prove futile from access to instruments that will enable them to as efficiently unleash their evils.

 

[pianodinosaur]

No, I got the point. Any instrument can be used for good or evil, but that doesn't really mean anything. I am all for trying to constrain the evil nature I believe is innately within humankind. I am also for restricting those for whom these efforts prove futile from access to instruments that will enable them to as efficiently unleash their evils.

We agree. I personally believe that it is more important to teach children about the nature and consequences of sin than it is to teach self esteem. This would be a step in the right direct IMHO. This is very difficult to accomplish while the ten commandments have been banned from school. Our public schools are now teaching children to feel good about doing bad. Teaching children to worship themselves is the ultimate form of idolatry. We have demeaned the very foundations of our civilization. Our republic was specifically designed for a moral citizenry. It cannot survive without that common sense of morality. Not all cultures are equally valid.

 

[easyrider]

Two more people saving lives with a gun.

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4...-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=119078&article=10644119

Here is a thought. Make every citizen, right out of high school join the military or another organization that helps our country for at least 6 months. This way every one could get some basic training and advanced indiviual training as well as some dicsaplin and structure.


Bill

 

[MuranoJo]

I"m sure alcoholism is the root cause of many fatal accidents.
Does that mean drunk drivers shouldn't be pulled over, their driving privileges taken away, etc. before there's an accident?

Of course drunk drivers should be pulled over, have their driving privileges taken away, etc. before there's an accident. However, this happens all the time and yet we continue to have drunk drivers. In the same vein, even if someone is restricted or denied access to guns, they can and will get access if they want it.

I'm just saying guns are not the root cause, just as alcohol and cars are not the root cause of drunk driving. Laws, restrictions, and penalties may help defray abuse, but they don't address the root cause and they'll never stop the type of horror that happened last Friday.

As others have discussed, somehow mental health has to be addressed, as does more pro-active engagement by those who are aware something is 'not right' with an individual. How many times after each of these events have we seen someone interviewed who has admitted they were aware there were problems?

 

[Carolinian]

This Irish journalist, based in Brussels, sets out the real issues here:

http://synonblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/12/connecticut-killings-its-the-shooter-not-the-guns.html

 

[Carolinian]

Switzerland is a very safe country with no mass killings. Every able bodied male of military age there is required by law to keep a military rifle at home. It is also a very democratic country. On the other hand, one of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was take away citizens gun rights. Do we want to be like the Swiss or like Hitler?

One thing that the media hype in this tragedy seems to downplay is that the shooter had mental health problems and was addicted to violent video games. If anything ought to be banned, it is violent video games. And perhaps the trend of putting mentally ill people out in the community instead of in assylums ought to be reversed. Most of the mass killing shooters in recent times have been on mind altering mental health drugs. It will be interesting to see what the toxicology shows on this one, and what other recreational drugs might have been involved.

Two more people saving lives with a gun.

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4...-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=119078&article=10644119

Here is a thought. Make every citizen, right out of high school join the military or another organization that helps our country for at least 6 months. This way every one could get some basic training and advanced indiviual training as well as some dicsaplin and structure.


Bill

 

[Carolinian]

I don't get why we can't just ban all guns...If there are no more new guns coming into america and we confiscate any we see, even with a mythical 3 million guns in owners hands, within 30 years, there won't be a working gun left...

IMO, even with reloaders available, just banning bullets would work equally well, if it costs hundreds of dollars per bullet on the black market, scum will be much less likely to waste them by using them on people, or 'hunting' or shooting at the range

There is a very good reason. It is called FREEDOM and our Constitutional liberties. Are you opposed to freedom?

One of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was to take away gun rights. So have the Communists everywhere they come to power.

It all boils down to freedom versus totalitarianism.

And it still does not stop mass violence at schools. Communist China has recently had to put armed guards in schools after a rash of mass stabbings of school children by nutjobs. If they can't get guns, they will get use knives, Molotov cocktails, or whatever is handy.

What is really needed in not gun control, but nut control. Put them back in the mental institutions instead of trying to put them out on the streets.