SDO platinum

[DanCali]

My point being that if they invite SDO owners to join, SVN takes more than just membership fees - there is an imbalance between how much they get for the owners' usage and how much the 1-52 float owners get out of SVN. SVN would require more points to book the resort than awarding the owners of those weeks, and they would pocket the difference.

If owners got the average points required to book a week in their deeded season then it's NOT like Marriott and there is nothing to pocket...

 

[ada903]

But they don't, that's precisely the point. Not the owners of float 1-52 weeks. The system would be fair only to the owners of season weeks.

If owners got the average points required to book a week in their deeded season then it's NOT like Marriott and there is nothing to pocket...

 

[YYJMSP]

Since we are on calculating mood - one of the things I don't understand is this. Assume SDO is invited to join. Owners of 1-52 floats are offered 81,000 options for their two bedrooms, and owner's of season weeks are offered 148,100 options, 81,000 options or 56,300 options. Let's assume everyone joins, just for the sake of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see a setup similar to SVR, where there are separate internal and external SO charts, and owners get some blended amount (in a "Gold Select" season) instead of the separate season allocations.

Pure speculation of course...

 

[l2trade]

The rumor is about whether or not non-SVN resale owners are given an alternative method to join, beyond the existing method to retro a unit with a large retail purchase. Regardless, when Starwood took over SDO, existing owners were offered the limited time option to join SVN. As such, there are plenty of owners with 'gold plus / 1-52 floating' deeds that already belong to SVN. There were no seasonal deeds prior to Starwood finishing the final phases of this property. The SVN point charts and methodology already exists for SDO. Changes to that goes beyond the current rumor and into the realm of pure speculation, IMHO.

For me, I am only interested in SVN if I get a like size for like size exchange, along with the benefit of much more inventory to choose from. Even if I had a 'true platinum' and belonged to SVN, I might still prefer to trade it via II for the wider network and bonus weeks. For 81k SO on my gold plus, no thank you, I will save myself the annual SVN membership fee. I'd rather dump my ownerships than trade down in size every time. Perhaps, could this be one factor adding to the number of eBay SDO dumps? I've found that many owners (non-Tuggers) I chat with do not understand how to trade SDO with II. Many of them either do SVN or go RCI, go figure...

 

[l2trade]

I decided to reveal what my maximum snipe price on this eBay auction would be: $5,000 - $540 closing = $4,460 max bid

Right now, I am not in the lead. I am very happy with the current bidding because I believe it proves my point. Potential buyers are so focused on buying only 'The Best Starwood Ownership value for SVN', that they are missing the really great buying opportunity for a cheap, name brand II trader, that is the vast majority of ownership at SDO - '1-52 float'. So, I may or may not bid again on this 'true platinum'. I may or may not try to snipe it if it remains at $3,500. Since I won't go above a $4,460 bid and this auction is getting closer to that amount, it probably doesn't matter for me anyways.

Why does L2Trade say $5,000? Because that is what an annual SDO 'true platinum' is worth to me. For comparison, $4,000 is about how much my annual SDO '1-52' is worth to me right now. The $1,000 difference is my speculation around the SVN rumor... that is, the possibility that someday I might be able to get access to the wider in-network inventory of SVN too. Please understand, I am saying these values as 'what it is worth to me', NOT 'what I think is fair to pay given current market conditions'. I am not in the market for an SDO '1-52' and if I were, given these lousy market conditions, I would try to obtain one of them for as close to nothing as possible and be patient. If I were a seller, I'd probably have to accept whatever I could get, which is also close to nothing. For the 'true platinum', IMHO, prices should not be that much different, except there are so few of them in total and people are caught up in the SVN marketing hype. Again, IMHO, the really great value that is SDO can be obtained via home resort usage and II exchanges... and for that, 'true platinum' or 'gold plus', it doesn't really matter at all.

I think the SDO '1-52' eBay auctions are really, really cheap. Unfortunately, I already own too many timeshares. So, I will not put my money where my mouth is. I will not dare bid on any of the '1-52' auctions because I might end up winning every one.

In my life, I've learned that paying a big premium to buy 'The BEST' does not make me as happy or as satisfied a customer as buying 'The MOST POPULAR', or 'The BEST VALUE'. Of course, again, YMMV!

 

[mstoyanov]

l2trade, you are saying that annual 2BR 1-52 SDO is worth $4000 to you. EBay values these at ~$1000 and there are so many regularly listed with small variation around it (white noise is minimal due to the large volume of these).

If you really put any hopes on "rumors" of SVN being offered without retro (even at 50% probability) then you should go and buy any true platinum 1BR small/large or 2BR EOY since despite that 1BR small+1BR large maintenance fees are more than 2BR LO MFs these are still one of the best values in terms of SO/$ (better than platinum WKV).

I bought true platinum 2BR EOY in 2009 for $500 with $0 premium over 1-52 floaters (in fact similar 1-52 floater 2BR EOY ended for slightly higher on the next day). And the only reason why I even waited to buy such true platinum instead of 1-52 was due to Starwood saying they will end bulk banking and in ongoing searches even minimal TP difference matter. But I honestly would not have paid even $200 premium over 1-52 floater.

In my opinion the only units that deserve premium are annual true platinum 2BR since for people ready to plunk $20k for retro time is often too valuable to wait and patiently search for good unit to retro so it is natural that they will pay more. In the grand scheme of things $2k over 1-52 floater is only 10% of the $20k one needs to spend and 1-52 floater is not suitable for retro anyway.

But quite frankly I am really surprised at current auction prices - in the last 6 months there were 2 annual platinum 2BR listed here on TUG marketplace - the most recent one for $1500 (I presume the one that ada got) and several months ago another one for $2500. If I knew people put that much premium I would have bought these only to sell them to people like you. May be you should actually put "wanted" ad at these prices - it is highly probable that you will find seller willing to sell to you such unit.

As for the rarity - the ones listed for sale are definitely less than 12% of all 2BR SDO units for 2 reasons: 1st original 1-52 floaters had RCI as default trading company and were not automatically part of SVN network while all 3 season ones were part of SVN by default. Starwood invited people to join after they bough resort from original developer but very few people enrolled (and there was some fee involved) and 2nd is that true platinum units were sold later and some of the owners are still having unpaid loans while most of the 1-52 floater owners had paid their ownership in full and they can sell it.

I decided to reveal what my maximum snipe price on this eBay auction would be: $5,000 - $540 closing = $4,460 max bid

Right now, I am not in the lead. I am very happy with the current bidding because I believe it proves my point. Potential buyers are so focused on buying only 'The Best Starwood Ownership value for SVN', that they are missing the really great buying opportunity for a cheap, name brand II trader, that is the vast majority of ownership at SDO - '1-52 float'. So, I may or may not bid again on this 'true platinum'. I may or may not try to snipe it if it remains at $3,500. Since I won't go above a $4,460 bid and this auction is getting closer to that amount, it probably doesn't matter for me anyways.

Why does L2Trade say $5,000? Because that is what an annual SDO 'true platinum' is worth to me. For comparison, $4,000 is about how much my annual SDO '1-52' is worth to me right now. The $1,000 difference is my speculation around the SVN rumor... that is, the possibility that someday I might be able to get access to the wider in-network inventory of SVN too. Please understand, I am saying these values as 'what it is worth to me', NOT 'what I think is fair to pay given current market conditions'. I am not in the market for an SDO '1-52' and if I were, given these lousy market conditions, I would try to obtain one of them for as close to nothing as possible and be patient. If I were a seller, I'd probably have to accept whatever I could get, which is also close to nothing. For the 'true platinum', IMHO, prices should not be that much different, except there are so few of them in total and people are caught up in the SVN marketing hype. Again, IMHO, the really great value that is SDO can be obtained via home resort usage and II exchanges... and for that, 'true platinum' or 'gold plus', it doesn't really matter at all.

I think the SDO '1-52' eBay auctions are really, really cheap. Unfortunately, I already own too many timeshares. So, I will not put my money where my mouth is. I will not dare bid on any of the '1-52' auctions because I might end up winning every one.

In my life, I've learned that paying a big premium to buy 'The BEST' does not make me as happy or as satisfied a customer as buying 'The MOST POPULAR', or 'The BEST VALUE'. Of course, again, YMMV!

 

[l2trade]

mstoyanov - perhaps you should re-read my posts?

For example: "I am saying these values as 'what it is worth to me', NOT 'what I think is fair to pay given current market conditions'."

 

[l2trade]

All right... Who keeps bidding against me?!!!

 

[DanCali]

All right... Who keeps bidding against me?!!!

I thought your strategy was to snipe it last minute. If so why bid before then?

At this point it doesn't matter where this auction ends... my prediction is the high bidder will realize they overpaid and back out. This week will make it back to eBay in a few days.

 

[l2trade]

I thought your strategy was to snipe it last minute. If so why bid before then?

At this point it doesn't matter where this auction ends... my prediction is the high bidder will realize they overpaid and back out. This week will make it back to eBay in a few days.

If I win, I am not backing out. If I lose, I hope I get a 2nd shot at it. I may or may not try to snipe it. My maximum limit remains the same if I resume bidding. I am debating about bidding again to gain the lead tonight or just waiting until it gets closer. I cannot snipe unless I use an automated program because I am busy working when this auction closes. It should be clear from all my posts that I lack a sound bidding / sniping strategy.

Who knows how long I will have to wait until I see another 'true platinum'. At that point, I may be too late and then I might no longer be interested. And, for those who might claim these are easy to find, I respectfully disagree. Many people post 'platinum', but when you ask for the unit number and week, it is a 1-52.

 

[Ken555]

Well, since it's obvious you enjoy the entertainment value of this auction, given your comments on this thread, I say why stop? Bid as high as needed to win it! And, be sure to document every thought here so we can follow along with the twists and turns of your auction experience. Exciting!

 

[l2trade]

To re-bid, or not to re-bid... that is my question?

All the naysaying posts have got me second guessing myself. It's like "L2Trade, you are being an idiot"... well I know that already, now don't I? :hysterical:

It is my gamble on the timing of a rumor, that may or may not be true. And, it is my further speculation, based almost entirely on Marriott's new point system as an example, that there will be a limited window for weeks purchased beforehand.

How long do you think it will be before we see another 'true platinum' annual 2BD SDO? Contrary to what some have said, I am only aware of SDKath's auction (which I lost) and ada903 stealthy double-pointer which I missed seeing (great job!)

I think I may always do better in II by being flexible and traveling off peak, that is by measuring in free upgrades and bonus weeks. However, I have changed my opinion and decided it would be nice to have one SVN as a convenient luxury to supplement my other ownerships. I'm getting tired of settling for lesser destinations during the summer school breaks... I want Kauai! I'm not sure I would bite at the 81k StarOption level, but 148k is a no-brainer. With the number of timeshares I already own, I don't want to bother myself with owning split units & EOY - that small stuff is for folks who aren't as addicted to timesharing as myself and want to minimize their commitments. Not me!

Now, of course, all of this rumor and speculation could be totally wrong and I could be wasting some extra one-time $$$. That is the risk! Even so, longer term, SVN retro may still happen someday. And, regardless, I know that the TPU for 'true platinum' weeks in RCI should be higher than 'gold plus', as the season averages are higher. It would be nice to hear reliable TPU verification from 'true platinum' owners on 2012 and forward RCI deposits. With just gold plus, I'm not going to join RCI anytime soon.

 

[l2trade]

Well, since it's obvious you enjoy the entertainment value of this auction, given your comments on this thread, I say why stop? Bid as high as needed to win it! And, be sure to document every thought here so we can follow along with the twists and turns of your auction experience. Exciting!

Thank you!

I am not a fan of eBay auctions which stay low on the radar until the last minute of sniping. I bet that there are plenty of people reading this thread who were hoping I would shut the heck up, nobody else would see this auction and they could swoop in and snipe it cheap. Well, guess what, almost every time I try sniping with a high in demand eBay auction, I either lose or overpay. Well, heck, if I am going to overpay, I might as well enjoy the thrill of the experience, right? Sniping, is so, BORING and anti-climatic! Plus, I will be unavailable to snipe when this auction closes and refuse to sign up for a 3rd party sniping tool. I wonder if some people naysaying the high price were hoping to get it cheap themselves. C'mon, if this thing were listed for sale at $2,500, I know I wouldn't be the only one scrambling to make an offer, right? Supply and demand! I hope my postings have scared away the newbies and would-be snipers. If you want to be frugal and get a good value, the 1-52 SDO float is all that! You can buy those all day long without any competition from me. But, this 'true platinum' auction is for the really big Starwood fans like me, that are ready to waste some extra dollars and take that risk for immediate gratification that might, hopefully, help me graduate to the next level of ownership. And if not, I suppose I could go out and spend $20k+ to retro this week, right? :rofl:

 

[l2trade]

Where this auction stands now, I don't know if or what or when I should bid again... I was hoping my rants would get my main competitor(s) to reveal themselves. By reading this thread, it almost sounds like I am bidding against myself, I AM NOT! I bet the last person who outbid me is reading this right now. You know who you are... By staying quiet in this competition, I promise you, that if I win, and if the rumor persists, I will try to buy the next 'true platinum' annual 2BD sighting too, just because I can. I revealed that if I bid again, my max price will not be higher than what I already disclosed. In hindsight, I am starting to regret revealing that amount. I revealed it because when I did we were moving so fast towards my number that I thought I was going to have to shut up and watch from the sidelines. LOL! Who knows, I suppose I could type that bid in right now and still be a LOSER! But with what others have said here and in PMs, I am beginning to second guess myself. I think I'll wait a few more before I decide whether or not to take this auction up to the next level...

 

[bryanphunter]

1BR Platinum unit...

There is a 1BR deluxe annual platinum with reduced closing costs on Ebay (about 8hours left). No bids yet.

 

[ada903]

L2trade, you are really spicing up my boring week! Even my husband who knows nothing of timeshares and just signs the dotted line when I ask for it, he has been asking me how the auction is going! I too believe the day will come when SDO owners will be offered to join even if it's another five years from now. The question is, how hard it will be by then to book peak seasons and resorts with options, as more resorts join and the competition for options exchanges gets stiffer.

 

[l2trade]

There is a 1BR deluxe annual platinum with reduced closing costs on Ebay (about 8hours left). No bids yet.

Yep, that is a great deal for somebody! Not me!

 

[l2trade]

L2trade, you are really spicing up my boring week! Even my husband who knows nothing of timeshares and just signs the dotted line when I ask for it, he has been asking me how the auction is going! I too believe the day will come when SDO owners will be offered to join even if it's another five years from now. The question is, how hard it will be by then to book peak seasons and resorts with options, as more resorts join and the competition for options exchanges gets stiffer.

Thanks!

Well, the only certainty in life is change. I think more SVN members and resorts will make things better, not worse for SVN availability. The reality is that only a small minority of owners will plan as early and as often as me. And, if things get harder to book in SVN, imagine what it would look like in II? And if I'm wrong, no matter, SVN members have the benefits of both worlds. IMHO, as long as SVN is around with the new Starwood/II methodology, SVN owners will get a better shot than II at the peak seasons and resorts. That is true today and, absent something major and unexpected like Starwood/SVN going away, it will likely be true in 5 years time.

 

[levatino]

I wonder "if" owners are offered to buy membership, if there may be a prior one-year ownership window, to keep the offering consistent with Vistana's offer.

But....I don't see what Starwood has to gain from a business perspective from opening up SVN to resale owners. It further weakens Developer sales by supporting the resale market. The small cash infusion would be limited compared to developer sales.

Perhaps someone got a 'helpful' operator, who told him what would make him happy, and the board goes into an even deeper SDO fervor.

Consumerism being what it is, when someone wants something, they will pay for it, if they have the money (and often when they don't!). If l2trade is the one to get it, God Bless. Its not a cost effective investment for me, and that's the variety and spice of life.

Good Luck.

 

[l2trade]

Thanks levatino!

I got to be in it to win it. I haven't decided yet whether to bid again because of what some have said about the current price. The current price would have been considered a good price, even on a 1-52, not that many years ago. It still feels cheap to me. Oh, how much times and sentiment have changed, eh? We've been spoiled and soured by the disaster that is the timeshare resale market. But this here is a jewel in the rough, and one worth having to me now vs. waiting to find another one like it. Funny thing is, I am getting much better value from II today then I did back then. I have more than gotten my money's worth in the past 5 years!

What will I do? I don't know yet.

 

[K2Quick]

But....I don't see what Starwood has to gain from a business perspective from opening up SVN to resale owners. It further weakens Developer sales by supporting the resale market. The small cash infusion would be limited compared to developer sales.

There was a thread a while back explaining the reasons why they would eventually have to open it up. Eventually every interval Starwood sells will transfer to another owner by either resale or death and after the transfer would not be eligible for SVN enrollment. If none of those intervals are eligible for SVN, there would be nothing for new retail buyers to trade into via SVN (with the exception of the mandatory resorts).

 

[levatino]

I would be interested in seeing that thread. Anyone know a keyword to find it. I tried.

 

[l2trade]

The current exclusive approach of SVN has been short-sighted. By setting the retro bar so high, Starwood voluntarily turned down what could be a much higher SVN membership and wider market share. I think initiation fees + recurring annual dues would be more than just a "small cash infusion". Starwood would gain wider control over inventory management with less inventory getting bulk banked straight into II. I bet many at Starwood realized this long ago, but the Sales Department blocked the way. I think it is just a matter of time.

 

[nodge]

Now, of course, all of this rumor and speculation could be totally wrong and I could be wasting some extra one-time $$$. That is the risk!

Rumors aside, I think from a purely math perspective SVO will eventually have to let resale buyers into SVN or the entire SVN system will die from lack of available inventory. SVO can prop up SVN availability during peak seasons at peak resorts by controlling deposits into exchange companies for only so long before even that trick isn’t enough to fill the ever increasing inventory gap caused by the simple mathematical fact that all voluntary properties will eventually fall out of SVN.

Moreover, with fewer and fewer developer sales to be made as new properties sell-out and the pool of cheap defaults at sold-out properties dries up, the threat of lost developer sales associated with allowing resale buyers at voluntary resorts into SVN is minimized. Add to that the fact that SVO can quickly and easily beef-up this diminishing developer sales revenue by selling SVN memberships to resale buyers (I bet not for just $599 though), and the math even works in SVO’s favor too.

So, the real question in my mind isn’t so much whether the rumor will happen, but when.

-nodge

 

[jerseygirl]

Ah ... but these same realities have been apparent for a long time and Starwood has never cared -- IMO, they only care about retail sales and inflated management fees. I think they screwed up royally by making some of the more popular resorts voluntary (WPORV, WSJ-BV, WMH, etc) --- but I seriously doubt if they care about the lesser resorts falling out of the network. Again, JMO! That's not to say they might not do it just for the short-term pop in revenue -- but, that revenue is not sustainable if the resorts remain voluntary ... they'll just turn over again ... and again. The population of owners ain't gettin' any younger!

My prediction -- they'll do it ... but the price won't be $599!! In fact, I suspect the "last chance offers" are intertwined in this mystery!

If they make drastic changes (ala' Marriott), I'll renew my prediction of a SERIOUS SO re-evaluation in addition to >$595 for resale owners to join.

The good news for me -- I don't care! I have the mandatories I need/want and I'm reducing my portfolio of traders due to an inability to use them all. But, it's fun to watch and speculate nonetheless!

Having said all this, I think if L2Trade has the play money to make this gamble -- then I say go for it! If SDO Platinum is invited in at 148,100 for minimal $, it will have been a great coup. And, if it's not, so what -- L2Trade still has a great external trader on his hands!