[2014 Thread] Using Wyndham Points to rent out vacations for others?

Richardsdeals · Oct 18, 2014

1) Can you use your Wyndham points to rent out vacations for others? Is there any regulation against this?

2) If you were to rent out your points, at point do you need to worry about taxes and records? How would you calculate "profit"?

3) Have any of you had good or bad experiences buying contracts with the purpose of using them to rent to others?

ronparise · Oct 18, 2014

Richardsdeals said:
1) Can you use your Wyndham points to rent out vacations for others? Is there any regulation against this?

2) If you were to rent out your points, at point do you need to worry about taxes and records? How would you calculate "profit"?

3) Have any of you had good or bad experiences buying contracts with the purpose of using them to rent to others?

1) yes you can make reservations and rent to others. There is a line in the owners directory that would seem to prohibit commercial renting. But at least for now it's not being enforced. In the past Wyndham enacted several new policies intended to make it more difficult and more expensive. But renting still happens

2) business records are kept for two reasons . One is to help you the business owner understand what's working and to enable you to make good decisions. And two to satisfy the IRS. How are you going to know how much tax to pay without good records. When you decide to keep good records is between you and the IRS. To be on the right side of the law you need to declare all income even if you have offsetting expenses

3) there are several of us here that can speak about our success. But probably more that will talk about the difficulties. If you approach this as a hobby; that's one thing. But if you come at it as a business, you should know that it's a high volume, low margin business. You need to do a lot to make any significant money.

By the way most of us that do this seriously are either gold or platinum VIP owners or work for VIP owners managing their accounts. Also most of the success stories are told by folks that specialize. I've had people sell me their La Belle Maison contracts rather than compete with me in New Orleans.

chapjim · Oct 20, 2014

!

A few tips from a smaller operator than Ron. I only have about 4.5 million Wyndham points plus about fifteen fixed or floating weeks outside the Wyndham system (about half of those in New Orleans, a place I know what it means to miss).

1. Running a rental business takes time!! Ron is in the real estate business so this is just another line for him. I manage military sales to a country in South Asia in a secure government agency. Of necessity, I conduct almost all my rental business at home in the evening and on weekends, the exception being some emails or calls on my mobile phone when I step outside the agency. Making reservations, managing rental listings, returning emails and calls, keeping the books is an enormous investment of time.

2. Specialize. Ron works New Orleans and does well there. I concentrate on two resorts where I own and have stayed several times -- Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk -- but will book a reservation on spec most anyplace I've stayed and liked and that might sell well. I won't book a reservation at a resort I know nothing about unless someone asks for it.

3. Look for event/holiday weeks. New Orleans is a festival town. Daytona has Bike Weeks and races (I work Bike Week but not Race Week). Bonnet Creek is a very high demand resort for vacation periods -- spring break (secondary schools -- avoid college spring break), holiday weeks. Mid summer at Skyline Tower in Atlantic City has been popular but may not stay that way.

4. Don't get greedy. It's better to rent a week at a lower margin or even a slight loss than it is to have to keep cancelling unrented weeks and booking later in the year and maybe eventually lose points. Watch your use year.

5. Learn how your listing sites work. TUG is good because you if you sell a week and the listing has some time left, you can change it to another resort. RedWeek.com will let you change everything except the resort.

6. Don't mess with the IRS. You can probably get away with some accounting mistakes on the expense side. But, always report income.

Bigrob · Oct 20, 2014

chapjim said:
A few tips from a smaller operator than Ron. I only have about 4.5 million Wyndham points plus about fifteen fixed or floating weeks outside the Wyndham system (about half of those in New Orleans, a place I know what it means to miss).

1. Running a rental business takes time!!

I will second, third and fourth this statement. It takes MUCH more time than I anticipated, and quite honestly there are many facets that I am not performing properly as it is. It is certainly not something to get in to lightly.

The thing you have to realize is you will be competing against people who 1) know what to book 2) have ways to book it for 1/2 to 1/4 of the number of points an average resale points owner would 3) know how to market it 4) have the time and inclination to do all of the above.

You could miss any one of those points above and find yourself unable to recover your maintenance fees, much less make a profit. The platinum owner pays no HK or RT fees, gets 30+ free guest certificates, can book and upgrade reservations resulting in points cost at as little as 1/8 the full value cost, etc. If you add to that the knowledge of the system, the detailed knowledge of the resort and which units have the best views, etc.; the relationships with local resort management to pull strings when necessary; active participation in industry groups, etc. - it definitely will be a challenging proposition.

Can it be done? Sure. Just be aware of the disadvantages you have versus those who have a significant head start on you. I don't mean to sound negative about it, but you should be aware of the pitfalls of betting big on being able to do rentals at scale from a standing start.

ron3632 · Oct 29, 2014

[deleted]

[Soliciting is not permitted on TUG, and can get you banned.]

lcml11 · Oct 30, 2014

ronparise said:
1) yes you can make reservations and rent to others. There is a line in the owners directory that would seem to prohibit commercial renting. But at least for now it's not being enforced. In the past Wyndham enacted several new policies intended to make it more difficult and more expensive. But renting still happens

2) business records are kept for two reasons . One is to help you the business owner understand what's working and to enable you to make good decisions. And two to satisfy the IRS. How are you going to know how much tax to pay without good records. When you decide to keep good records is between you and the IRS. To be on the right side of the law you need to declare all income even if you have offsetting expenses

3) there are several of us here that can speak about our success. But probably more that will talk about the difficulties. If you approach this as a hobby; that's one thing. But if you come at it as a business, you should know that it's a high volume, low margin business. You need to do a lot to make any significant money.

By the way most of us that do this seriously are either gold or platinum VIP owners or work for VIP owners managing their accounts. Also most of the success stories are told by folks that specialize. I've had people sell me their La Belle Maison contracts rather than compete with me in New Orleans.

Ron is right on the VIP portion of his comment. Not having the ability to get discounted rates for bookings makes it hard to rent due to last minute market rate discounts from others, big players and small. Then the question becomes, is the margin you are getting sufficient to cover the purchase price needed to get the VIP Status with a reasonable profit.

Richardsdeals · Oct 30, 2014

Makes sense.

I am sure it is like most things. It's hard to sell a 1,000 widgets a year and have a 50% profit margin when someone else can sell 100,000 a year at a 5% profit margin.

When people rent from a Wyndham owner, do they get hit up for the sales presentation like owners do? Is this an issue?

Richard

Free2Roam · Oct 30, 2014

Yes they do get invited to attend... Warn them and let them know it's NOT required.

persia · Oct 30, 2014

Often a non-owner/renter will get more "gifts" for attending than an owner. But you should tell them that it's their choice and they can say no. Personally I'd rather be locked in a room full of Walmartians than go through another sales presentation....

FreeIn2010 said:
Yes they do get invited to attend... Warn them and let them know it's NOT required.

daphyTUG2020 · Jan 19, 2020

chapjim said:
!

A few tips from a smaller operator than Ron. I only have about 4.5 million Wyndham points plus about fifteen fixed or floating weeks outside the Wyndham system (about half of those in New Orleans, a place I know what it means to miss).

1. Running a rental business takes time!! Ron is in the real estate business so this is just another line for him. I manage military sales to a country in South Asia in a secure government agency. Of necessity, I conduct almost all my rental business at home in the evening and on weekends, the exception being some emails or calls on my mobile phone when I step outside the agency. Making reservations, managing rental listings, returning emails and calls, keeping the books is an enormous investment of time.

2. Specialize. Ron works New Orleans and does well there. I concentrate on two resorts where I own and have stayed several times -- Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk -- but will book a reservation on spec most anyplace I've stayed and liked and that might sell well. I won't book a reservation at a resort I know nothing about unless someone asks for it.

3. Look for event/holiday weeks. New Orleans is a festival town. Daytona has Bike Weeks and races (I work Bike Week but not Race Week). Bonnet Creek is a very high demand resort for vacation periods -- spring break (secondary schools -- avoid college spring break), holiday weeks. Mid summer at Skyline Tower in Atlantic City has been popular but may not stay that way.

4. Don't get greedy. It's better to rent a week at a lower margin or even a slight loss than it is to have to keep cancelling unrented weeks and booking later in the year and maybe eventually lose points. Watch your use year.

5. Learn how your listing sites work. TUG is good because you if you sell a week and the listing has some time left, you can change it to another resort. RedWeek.com will let you change everything except the resort.

6. Don't mess with the IRS. You can probably get away with some accounting mistakes on the expense side. But, always report income.

I'm new to using Wyndham points to rent out vacation. I just want to do this to help with off-set my timeshare expenses. Looking advice.

SNA27 · Jan 19, 2020

This is my dream thread. Let renting wisdom flow. :clap:

chapjim · Jan 19, 2020

Bottom Line Up Front: Unless you are VIP Platinum, I would forget about actually turning a profit renting Wyndham reservations. If you aspire to merely recovering some funds from otherwise unused points, you may be okay.

I have no tips to add to what I wrote over five years ago. It is all still true but it has become incredibly more difficult and time-consuming that it was even then due to some changes Wyndham made in 2017.

Here is the main point and I would accept it as fact. Unless you have some level of VIP with its discounts and possibilities of upgrades, you will find it almost impossible to rent and not lose money on the points you use for the rental. You may be okay with that. It's better than letting the points expire. The exception to this is event weeks, which have always been special. If your home resort is in a town with major events (the examples from 2014 were Mardi Gras, Bike Week in Daytona, and Spring Break but there are many others) and if you can secure a reservation, you might cover your maintenance fees for the points required to make the reservation.

Here's the other point. Even with VIP status, the probability of getting a discount for major events is next to zero and the probability of an upgrade 60 days before check-in is very low. It does happen but not often. I have Mardi Gras reservation for late February and have not had any upgrades. I made the reservations last summer so they are full price reservations -- no discount. Same goes for my Bike Week and Spring Break reservations -- all full price reservations. Finding a cancellation for a major event is a matter of persistence but mostly luck -- finding it before someone else does.

SNA27 · Jan 20, 2020

Nothing beats a 'business' rental. Whether it's a family member able to charge the Wyndham stay to his company or a reservation sought by someone attending a conference paid for by his organization, ime. Those are 'top-dollar' rentals! it's the addictive OPM! Other People's Money! People spend it more freely than their own!

sandkastle4966 · Jan 25, 2020

Do ya'll realize you are reading posts from 2014? The landscape has changed. Several of the "mega renters" are now gone...…..

paxsarah · Jan 25, 2020

sandkastle4966 said:
Do ya'll realize you are reading posts from 2014? The landscape has changed. Several of the "mega renters" are now gone...…..

A solution to this that wouldn’t have re-bumped it to the top of of forum after last having been posted in 5 days ago, is to use the report link in the first post and use it to ask a mod to add 2014 (or whatever the year is) to the title. I do this whenever I see a years-old thread bumped, and they do update the thread title accordingly.

chapjim · Jan 25, 2020

sandkastle4966 said:
Do ya'll realize you are reading posts from 2014? The landscape has changed. Several of the "mega renters" are now gone...…..

Yes, of course I realized the original post is from 2014 and so did DaphyTUG2020. Daphy responded to my post in 2014, so I responded back. I emphasized that things have changed and that many of the big renters are no longer with us.

[2014 Thread] Using Wyndham Points to rent out vacations for others?

Richardsdeals

ronparise

chapjim

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Bigrob

ron3632

lcml11

Richardsdeals

Free2Roam

TUG Review Crew

persia

daphyTUG2020

SNA27

chapjim

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

SNA27

sandkastle4966

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

paxsarah

chapjim

TUG Review Crew: Veteran