End the stigma of purchasing from developer [ POLL ADDED ABOVE ∆ ]

I am a frequent visitor to the HGVC forum on TUG. It is often interesting and useful to read people's comments and questions about the resorts and the system.

The reason for my post is that I feel there is far too much of a negative tone on the forum towards purchasing from the developer. Those who bought resale are quick to tell others, either directly or with an implied tone, "Too bad you bought from the developer instead of resale; but I hope you can make the best of it." Or "Rescind, rescind, rescind." Or "Why would you do that; don't you know about the resale market?"

I find it disheartening to read comments like this (from recent thread http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214589) where someone says "I am one of the unfortunate people who found this forum only after I purchased directly. Since I have no choice I am going to try to make the best of owning.", or something like that. You can read that quite frequently in the forum. Clearly this person and others like them have just spent thousands of dollars and the tone on TUG makes them feel regretful and disappointed, instead of happy about the future opportunities.

Those of us who did buy from the developer (including me) may have good reasons for doing so, or more commonly I would guess based on how often people mention it, did so before discovering TUG and without realizing there is a resale market (including me). For those who may be thinking that this guy must enjoy spending thousands of unnecessary extra dollars, you're missing my point. I do realize that you might be able to save yourself thousands of dollars by going resale, including rescinding if it is within the time frame, but it is not the only valid route to joining HGVC.

My point is that for some people purchasing resale is the only way to go, and that is fine for them. For others, purchasing from the developer is something done with or without knowledge of other options. But purchasing from the developer should not be stigmatized so much. You make your decision in the sales office, you know the reasons for your decision, and you know how much it costs. Finding out later that it might be possible to get the same or very nearly the same thing for much less might make you wish you had known about that option, but it shouldn't completely undermine the decision or why you made it knowing what you knew at the time. In the end you've joined a reputable timeshare system with a network of quality resorts in many desirable places to vacation, whether by direct purchase or resale. And that is what should matter.

I would be interested to know if others who have purchased from the developer also feel the general negative tone and stigma towards this on the forum.

pgiles said:

You make your decision in the sales office, you know the reasons for your decision, and you know how much it costs. Finding out later that it might be possible to get the same or very nearly the same thing for much less might make you wish you had known about that option, but it shouldn't completely undermine the decision or why you made it knowing what you knew at the time. In the end you've joined a reputable timeshare system with a network of quality resorts in many desirable places to vacation, whether by direct purchase or resale.

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Your statement above is entirely true, but I don't see the stigma.
It's an unfortunate fact that almost nobody would buy from a developer if they knew what you say above. The developer sales model is built on pressuring people to make a quick decision with material information omitted (often coupled with outright misrepresentation).

Using TUG as a vehicle to spread the word on resale alternatives (and the fact that a developer timeshare, once bought, is impossible to get rid of except at a big loss) is a public service.

The RESCIND, RESCIND, RESCIND messages are almost exclusively to people who bought on a whim and who only after they put their name on a contract start to study timeshares. There are reasons people should buy from a developer, but buying from a developer without first doing the research is always wrong. Timeshares are expensive and complicated. The sales people relentless. If you are going to commit yourself to spending USD 20,000 to 100,000 you really should do some research first. That's really what we are saying. Understand and if buying from the developer is right for you do it. Obviously none of us who bought resale would have any points if someone didn't buy from the developers at some point.

End the stigma of purchasing from developer

I bought from the developer years before finding TUG. I don't think there is a stigma whatsoever. Most new purchasers coming here bought under high pressure sales tactics, and were told (in general) less than accurate information. You will almost always hear, "rescind your current deal, do some homework, and come back rearmed and educated... Then, and only then, wade into the sales den." you'll likely make out with a better deal, whether it still be with the developer, or from resale.

If it is too late for a new buyer to rescind, the mantra is stick around TUG and learn how to get the most out of one's purchase... And to ENJOY the vacations.

I only have a tiny regret about buying from the developer, but I don't even think about it since it is a sunk cost from 8 years ago. It hasn't stopped me from enjoying vacays and buying resale. Being on TUG allows me to determine the true value/cost of further developer purchases, which I HAVE considered since coming to this forum.

Knowledge is power!




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What the others have said, and to which I'll add: I suggest they rescind if they are within the rescission period, then study, learn about TS. If it turns out that buying from the developer is the right move for them, the deal is available tomorrow, next month, next year.

To those who bought from a developer, and their rescission period has passed, I tell them that, yes, you overpaid, but the reasons you bought were, and still are valid. Timeshares can give your family great memories and wonderful travel and vacation opportunities anyway.

Buying a timeshare from a developer without knowledge of them, or with incomplete information is tantamount to selling a Harley- Davidson to a 10 year old. Its just not a good idea.

No stigma on my part. If a buyer chooses to feel stigmatized for not buying resale, thats his business.

Jim

I agree that there is too much negativity, but since I don't care what people are saying when they go off on a tangent, I just don't let it bother me. In fact, I was an active member here, read many of the freak outs about buying from the developer and then I went and bought from the developer. My situation was a bit different in that my purchase upgraded several resale weeks I already had.
Bottom line, I don't care what works best for someone else. I only care what works best for me.

If you feel a stigma, you are probably being too sensitive. A very large portion of people here bought retail first. Everyone wants others to be able to save a lot of money and actually get the vacations that they think they are buying from the developers. That is why there is so much emphasis on RESCIND NOW!!! It is so people can make an educated choice. I haven't seen anyone berate anyone for making a developer purchase when it is clear that it is way past the time the cancel the contract. The sad thing that we see all too often is people have spent thousands of dollars for a timeshare and it doesn't work the way the salesperson says it will. That is why we push to research and fully learn before a purchase. If the deal is already done, then we want to help people learn how to use what they have.

End the stigma of purchasing from developer

pgiles said:

...
I find it disheartening to read comments like this (from recent thread http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214589) where someone says "I am one of the unfortunate people who found this forum only after I purchased directly. Since I have no choice I am going to try to make the best of owning.", or something like that. You can read that quite frequently in the forum. Clearly this person and others like them have just spent thousands of dollars and the tone on TUG makes them feel regretful and disappointed, instead of happy about the future opportunities.
...

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Actually, the thread you cite is quite hopeful. The only "unfortunate" aspect of this poster's feelings is his/her understandable regret of knowing they could have had the same timeshare at 10-60% of the price he/she paid to the developer (and save tens of thousands of dollars). Instead of outright getting depressed and trying to dump the TS out of embarrassment (another rash decision IMO, usually driven by one's personal stigmas), this person is looking to maximize use of their purchase.


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We purchased from the developer (although both of us believed we would NOT and just listen to the sales pitch and walk away) because, after learning more about the way HGVC worked, all the advantages to owning, etc. we thought we settled on a good deal. We left and talked about it more and were still satisfied that we were doing the right thing. But I continued to search on google regarding reviews of HGVC and trying to learn as much as I could. Fortunately this led me to TUG. I must say I was happy to see many happy timeshare owners which reinforced our decision and I was confident, considering the 30,000 bonus points were were given, this would be a good deal. But I kept reading. And I then realized those bonus points were only good for 2 years. We can't travel that much in the next 2 years. Hmmmm....are these bonus points really enough to shy away from the advice to RESCIND? With no time to delay I soon became convinced we needed to rescind the purchase ASAP....no days to spare (purchase at resort, vacationing, travel time to get home with travel delays etc) I learned enough through the TUG forums to know this was what needed to happen. Thank you TUG. Now we are in the process of purchasing resale, saving thousands.

But, that being said, it would not have been the end of the world if we were stuck in the developer purchase. We still want to own with Hilton. It would have been more expensive than necessary (even if this doesn't pass ROFR we can find other options for less cost than developer sale by a lot), I think sometimes you have to accept what is, do your best to make educated decisions and then move on with no regrets.

Sometimes I feel lucky that my first was a developer purchase, if I had started buying off eBay without knowing what I was doing no telling what I would have ended up with. We own a package that met our needs for ten years before I found TUG when I wanted to learn more about trading and using other systems. We were perfectly happy booking our home week every year.

I am of the opinion that if you can't pay cash and absorb the annual fees, you have no business owning and should save up and rent for cash when you can afford the vacation. My wife and I are savers, we have no loans other than home mortgage.

I feel bad for the owners that have small point packages with a high interest loan and maintenance fees, they really need a heavy dose of Dave Ramsey.

As far as what other people say on here, take it with a grain of salt, its an internet forum. I speak my mind and am not too concerned with what others think or say, I live by the saying "what others think of me is none of my business".

pgiles said:

I would be interested to know if others who have purchased from the developer also feel the general negative tone and stigma towards this on the forum.

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Not sure I would use the word "stigma", but I do think there is a tendency to rush to judgement and assume that all developer purchases are a bad idea, or the only motivation is to get a timeshare at the lowest possible cost.

I experienced that to a degree back in the late '90s when I was active on TUG under a different username. We bought our 2BR Kaanapali Beach Club week (then called the Embassy Vacation Resort) on Maui from the developer even though we knew about resales. At the time, they had only just started selling as they were converting from an Embassy Suites hotel, so the only resales anywhere on Maui were in the less resort-like properties in the Kahana/Napili area and that was not what we were looking for. Marriott and Westin had yet to launch their timeshare projects on Maui.

We were told on TUG, "You should have bought a resale" and even after explaining our rationale, it seemed the conventional wisdom was we should have settled for one of the Kahana properties because they were a better "deal."

Having said that, if we were buying at KBC today, we would buy resale, no question about it. While 2BR units are less plentiful there than 1BR, they are readily available as inexpensive resales. But at the time, that just wasn't an option.

We just bought resale to get into the Marriott program, but had to do that in their developer-run resale program so we could get access to their Destination Club points system. (We also were required to buy a small package of developer points). So while we saved a bundle versus a pure developer points purchase, we again paid more than we would have paid by buying a resale Marriott week from a third-party. But again, if we wanted the flexibility of points, that was our only option.

We would like to get into the HGVC system as well in the next few years (I read this board to soak up knowledge), but there, as long as Hilton continues to allow resale weeks to join HGVC, we will certainly buy resale only.

So back to the OP's point, I do wish that I read more often, "Buying resale is USUALLY the best option," instead of, "NEVER buy from the developer."

We bought from the developer, found out what resales prices were, rescinded, got a better offer from the developer and bought from them a 2nd time. We paid more than the resale price, which wasn't as good in 2004 as it is now, but we did get benefits that wouldn't have come with a resale.

The whole point of the "rescind, rescind, rescind" message is that it gives you time to investigate the options, and in some cases, you may get a better offer from the developer.

Most of the folks that come here in the rescission period ask a question in their post something like this ....Did I get a good deal?...or Im not sure I did a good thing?...or What the hell have I done?

My advice to anyone that expresses any doubt is...rescind, do your homework, and then if you want to buy from the developer, do it....Most dont

If there is anything negative directed toward those that can make $10000+ decisions on impulse...its envy

Our first and so far only TS was purchased directly from HGVC. I booked the trip to get the discounted nights, and figured i could sit though a sales presentation and then leave... But my wife was hooked and really wanted to buy the timeshare... I was not quite as convinced, but decided to go for it.. We bought our two bedroom gold unit at the LV Strip.

Without a doubt we would not have bought a timeshare if it had been for the developer presentation, and the salesperson convincing my wife of the benefits..Later on i did some research and found TUG..

For sure we could have purchased our week for way less, even a fraction of what i paid if we knew about resale.. But since we nor really looking, we never would have found the resale opportunities...

I can thank the HGVC sales team for introducing me to the Timeshare concept, and the great vacations i have had so far in Vancouver and on the big Island.. I am looking forward to Oahu next year.

This is only my second year with the TS, and i am already thinking about buying another week or two. But at resale now that i understand the process..

Most people get 2-3 weeks of "PAID" vacation time. But, there are segments of the population, who get NO PAID time off as they are contracted workers, self employed, changed jobs, used their paid leave for family issues or part timers.

Plus, it is a SMALL portion of population who can payoff a $25,000-50,000 timeshare purchase by moving some money around AND not miss it.

And it does NOT MATTER which timeshare system one buys from the developer - they are all more expensive retail purchase than from an eBay seller.

Do I have developer purchase points? YES.
Did I know what I was doing? YES.
Would I re-do it again? - yes, but a little differently.
Why? I know MORE.
Am I likely to buy from the developer AGAIN - NO!
Why? I know MORE.

And remember, I sat in a car for 6+ hours just thinking about my sister's FIL who I attended a presentation who brought MORE Wyndham points for $18K - saying, "there has to be a cheaper way" over and over. Where do you get cheap stuff? Where is stuff SOLD cheap? Then it hit me - eBay! And that was before I found TUG.

And then I learned a lot more about timesharing on TUG - but I had already read the Wyndham Member's Directory at least 6 times with my various highlighters. I guess my TUG learning was like getting a great liberal art degree plus a Master's in Vacationing.

See, my years in college paid off - I knew to use highlighters.

And thanks to ALL the TUGGERS who have helped me over almost 7 years. And who still expand my knowledge almost every day.

pgiles said:

I would be interested to know if others who have purchased from the developer also feel the general negative tone and stigma towards this on the forum.

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Yes, you're probably correct. There is a certain "stigma" implied when someone purchases something for multiple-thousands that is then worth less than 5% of what you paid for it right after you signed the contract.

Yep, there might be a "stigma" attached to that event.

We bought our first timeshare from the developer before I met TUG.

$45,000

Fortunately, we didn't finance it, it's held "some" of it's value, and it's a good renter.

It was dumb! But if that's the worst thing I ever do, I'll be pretty lucky!

So rather than agonize over it, just move on, and chalk it up to experience. It's a done deal - why do you care what anyone else thinks?

ace2000 said:

Yes, you're probably correct. There is a certain "stigma" implied when someone purchases something for multiple-thousands that is then worth less than 5% of what you paid for it right after you signed the contract.

Yep, there might be a "stigma" attached to that event.

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The somewhat condescending tone of this post is the attitude I think the OP was referring to.

If there were no other reason for buying something than whatever the resale value might be, this would be a more valid comment. But you buy something to use it. If you buy that timeshare and use it, you are getting value for it as you utilize it. A new car depreciates 20% or so the minute you drive it off the lot, but you are buying that car for its use and utility over a number of years, not to sell it. Look at the the resale value of a 15 or 20 year old car. Most would sell for no more than 5% of their new cost.

We first bought developer over 16 years ago and when you look at the value of the vacations we have taken, even assuming a 3% annual opportunity cost on the upfront cost, we are ahead of where we would have been as a non-owner. We could give that timeshare away today and be ahead of the game.

Is it better to buy resale in most cases? Yes. Is our first option today buying resale? Yes. But as my earlier post stated, sometimes resale doesn't work for a particular need.

End the stigma of purchasing from developer

I find this thread rather curious. Does the OP really want us to greet those who most likely frivolously spent their money on a purchase they could have had for significantly less with anything other than disdain? There are very few conditions which warrant buying from the developer and only the knowledgeable who do so with knowing full well what they are purchasing and their goals.


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Ken555 said:

I find this thread rather curious. Does the OP really want us to greet those who most likely frivolously spent their money on a purchase they could have had for significantly less with anything other than disdain? There are very few conditions which warrant buying from the developer and only the knowledgeable who do so with knowing full well what they are purchasing and their goals.


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Words like "stigma" and "disdain" are what I think the OP is referring to. Why would anyone on TUG hold the buyer of a developer timeshare in "disdain" or call them "stigmatized?"

It's like saying you feel disdain for the person who is foreclosed on, rather than for the banker that lent them the money in 2007 only because his company had hedged the position and knew they could bundle and sell-off the mortgage paper to investors who would be left holding the bag.

If you had said you felt disdain for those timeshare salespeople who tell half-truths and outright lies to sell someone - OK, no problem with that. But to have "disdain" for the victim seems a bit harsh.

JIMinNC said:

Words like "stigma" and "disdain" are what I think the OP is referring to. Why would anyone on TUG hold the buyer of a developer timeshare in "disdain" or call them "stigmatized?"



It's like saying you feel disdain for the person who is foreclosed on, rather than for the banker that lent them the money in 2007 only because his company had hedged the position and knew they could bundle and sell-off the mortgage paper to investors who would be left holding the bag.



If you had said you felt disdain for those timeshare salespeople who tell half-truths and outright lies to sell someone - OK, no problem with that. But to have "disdain" for the victim seems a bit harsh.

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You, and it seems others, are reading way too much into the words some of us are using here. In all the threads I've participated in assisting others in rescinding their purchase, or assisting them in using it to the fullest, it is always clear that we are attempting to help others in a positive manner. Focusing on the exact words we use here is, in my opinion, a bit too much when the intent is crystal clear.

I have extreme sympathy for those who purchase timeshares from a developer not realizing that they could purchase the same item elsewhere for significantly less. I have disdain for the entire process which allows the unsuspecting to feel comfortable purchasing and I have a very low opinion of developer salespeople and their sales process. And, I sometimes do wonder how gullible people are to not question such a big purchase nor do due diligence on it. After all, timeshare purchases are often more expensive than your typical automobile cost, and yet I'm sure these same people do more research on which car to buy than if and which timeshare they should buy, until they reach TUG and learn more.


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:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: :hysterical:

:ignore:

Ken555 said:

I have extreme sympathy for those who purchase timeshares from a developer not realizing that they could purchase the same item elsewhere for significantly less. I have disdain for the entire process which allows the unsuspecting to feel comfortable purchasing and I have a very low opinion of developer salespeople and their sales process. And, I sometimes do wonder how gullible people are to not question such a big purchase nor do due diligence on it. After all, timeshare purchases are often more expensive than your typical automobile cost, and yet I'm sure these same people do more research on which car to buy than if and which timeshare they should buy, until they reach TUG and learn more.


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Agree 100% with everything you say here. I just think we all need to be careful and selective about using strong words like "disdain" and "stigma" that can come across as harsh in an online setting where you can't hear the person's voice.

We all can better help those who come here for advice if we are careful not to use words that could actually serve to make people defensive and less open to what we have to say. I am a writer and an editor, so I am perhaps more sensitive to the choice of words than others might be.

JIMinNC said:

Words like "stigma" and "disdain" are what I think the OP is referring to. Why would anyone on TUG hold the buyer of a developer timeshare in "disdain" or call them "stigmatized?"

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Can you show us an example anywhere on TUG where someone treated a buyer with disdain because they chose to buy from the developer? There is way too much drama in this thread. Even the adjectives "stigma" and "disdain" are going overboard.

I don't care how much "value" or "enjoyment" you have received from your timeshare, if you could have got the same "value" or "enjoyment" out of it for thousands less, then yes you probably made a mistake.

Does that mean I am stigmatizing you for saying that? Naw... just remember this is a place where people come for advice and it's better to be straightforward especially on this particular topic.

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with ace2000.

I believe that the majority of Tuggers actually bought their first timeshare from the developer,*** so I don't believe they are "stigmatizing" others who do the same. But we are saying, "Don't make the same mistake I did."

Compared to many other websites, TUG is polite and restrained, but we are pretty frank about what IS and what IS NOT a good deal. If a poster doesn't want to hear that, then TUG may not be a good fit for them. YMMV


***Let's find out - I added a poll at the very top of the page.

Our story is very similar to 1Kflyerguy. To the point of having a positive experience with the sales team.

Prior to TUG, i didn't trust the resale market. Knowing what I know now, I'm more than willing to add to my TS through resale.

A little different spin that also helped us decide to go the TS route. My dad, brother and I were looking at buying a lake/river house in Texas for family vacations. Anything decent was in the $200K+ range. So, for over $70K, I could go in and buy a vacation home, plus maintenance, taxes, utilities, etc. and vacation the same spot year after year after year. (we did discuss renting to offset expenses, but what a pain to coordinate b/w 3 families) Or for less than a 1/3 of that price I could be in HGVC. Needless to say, TS for my family is a much better deal than the lake/river house route.

We are now looking to add, through resale, another HGVC property. I'll be like many here on TUG, 1st purchase was developer, thereafter, resale. No stigma here.