Westgate Resale Purchase

I know all the basic issues with Westgate, but I am contemplating a resale purchase for reasons that fit what I am after. I am after any info on why it would be a bad idea. The sales staff and their sales methods is not a reason because I am aware and won't have anything to do with them. Are there any issues beyond the basics that I would not be aware of? I already know the consensus is that the company is horrible and I have no argument with that.

Saintsfanfl said:

I know all the basic issues with Westgate, but I am contemplating a resale purchase for reasons that fit what I am after. I am after any info on why it would be a bad idea. The sales staff and their sales methods is not a reason because I am aware and won't have anything to do with them. Are there any issues beyond the basics that I would not be aware of? I already know the consus is the company is horrible and I have no argument with that.

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I'm sure that actual Westgate owners (...either current or former, among whom I certainly cannot be numbered in either category) will weigh in with more specifics, but my understanding is that the problems with Westgate go way beyond their sales weasels' practices and / or Westgate CEO David Sea Gull.

More specifically, Westgate reportedly just "changes the rules" unilaterally, virtually at will, on various assorted matters pertaining to reservations, exchanges, and (...perhaps most immediately applicable and of interest to you) recently contrived "penalties" and / or "restrictions" imposed upon resale purchases.

I leave it to actual Westgate victims owners to weigh in for themselves with actual details and specifics. Meanwhile, I'd certainly caution you to think long and hard and proceed very slowly and very carefully...

Easy answer is that they can (& do) change the rules on you unilaterally. Even things like disallowing deposit of your deeded fixed week (they substitute what garbage they want) while holding you hostage to the deeded week if it benefits them! It's tough to say it can be a value even if bought right just to use. Plus they manipulate management & fees (to profit them or sales of course).

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The one thing you need to research fully before buying resale is the internal exchange fee Westgate has started to charge. There was a previous post on this but I don't remember the details. I am an owner but I bought directly from WG so I'm not affected. I'll look for the details when I have time.

In my case, I am after personal use and not exchanges. I feel I have a backup plan because it will not be difficult to unload if need be. I am still apprehensive.

sstug said:

The one thing you need to research fully before buying resale is the internal exchange fee Westgate has started to charge. There was a previous post on this but I don't remember the details. I am an owner but I bought directly from WG so I'm not affected. I'll look for the details when I have time.

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Let me know what you find out. In my particular case I have no intention of using any Westgate property but the one that is deeded, so perhaps it will not apply.

Saintsfanfl said:

Let me know what you find out. In my particular case I have no intention of using any Westgate property but the one that is deeded, so perhaps it will not apply.

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Are you looking at a floating week? I have read here that resale owners can't reserve as far out as retail and as stated above, the rules can change.

You can bet they won't change in favor of the resale buyers.

Are you positive that this will be easy to unload if you need to?

I have heard specifically for both the Park City and the Myrtle Beach that they try to limit float season owners to reservations within their own season at 60 or 90 days prior. Which means you will never get a prime week. Internal Westgate exchangers have a better chance than a resale owner if this is how they operate.

I have also heard that amenities like free internet and parking that are available to retail owners are not available to resale. Basically you are treated like an exchange guest at your resort. If these amenities are not paid for by MF's but come from a line item supplement from the developer fine but if you are paying for it, you should get it.

Westgate likes to change the rules in their favor. Even when it contradicts the CC&R's. Doesn't matter if you get anything in writing. At least they add in now that all terms are subject to change. Attitude is, take me to court. Even then, when Westgate was taken to court by its own employees (salesfolk), Westgate dragged it out and made it expensive as possible, then settled. They then refused to pay what they settled for and said take me to court because I decided not to pay. Dragged it out again costing the plaintiffs more money and then agreed to settle again for less than the original settlement.

As attractive as some of the properties may be and as cheap as you may be able to get it, it may end up being way too expensive for what you get.

I called reservations. They said the only difference is the $450 exchange fee versus $150 for an original owner. I pushed and they "thought" the booking window was the same 11 months. I wanted a definite answer so they told me to call owner services. I called and asked if there are restrictions in a resale. They just said yes. I asked if they could please tell me what they are particulary in regards to the booking window. I was put on hold for about 5 minutes. They came back and said that they are not allowed to give out that info unless I am already an owner. They gave me the number to the resale transaction office and I spoke to a very pleasant person. They said the booking window is outside their scope of knowledge and they couldn't believe that owner reservations and owner services would not provide it.

I ran across a thread from last year and a guest that owned resale at the resort in question chimed in about getting a memo that not only put in force the known $450 exchange fee but also a 60 booking window for all resale floating weeks.

SNIPE CANCELED!

Thanks for the info guys. It really got me on the ball on doing more due diligence. I can get careless at times. I would easily have been able to unload this unit but not without being dishonest on the booking window. Dishonestly is not my nature so I would have been stuck.

Saintsfanfl said:

Let me know what you find out. In my particular case I have no intention of using any Westgate property but the one that is deeded, so perhaps it will not apply.

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While it would seem that even Wastegate couldn't screw up a plan to use a simple deeded week as a deeded week at the annual use time believe me if there IS a way possible they will!

The things that come to mind are fees spiraling out of control (that has been seen in the past), unfair & potentially illegal block or reassignment of your use time (who do you protest to? They control everything from the keys to the property itself as well as the collections, reservations, etc), lack of unit maintenance (it has been publicly stated that funds collected for different Associations on the property have been (illegally) redirected to other, newer buildings/Associations that were built with defects (by the same group that refuses to let go of operation& maintenance of the whole place as legally they are obligated to do). You think of an outrageous move they could make that would infuriate you and make it a problem to own and chances are they will do it at some point.

There are only two types of Wastegate owners. Those who are fed up and wish they had never bought (retail, resale, it makes no difference long term) and those who haven't reached the breaking point yet (but you can be assured it WILL happen).

The happiest group are those who have managed to avoid Wastegate ownership of any type with a close second those having broke free after what started out as a seemingly great ownership at a reasonably nice resort that went all wrong over time. I was happily able to join that second group of ex-owners almost 3 years ago now after 4 years of struggling to get out.

Best advice look elsewhere. There are always better choices than Wastegate in every area they have a property. If you MUST buy a resale Wastegate for some strange reason then anticipate problems and be ready to act. Buying fixed time for fixed use is as close as you can come to a guaranteed way to perhaps actually enjoy a Wastegate ownership. Good luck if you decide to buy.

Saintsfanfl said:

I would easily have been able to unload this unit but not without being dishonest on the booking window. Dishonestly is not my nature so I would have been stuck.

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No you wouldn't because the fee and window are outside of your control, you would need to find someone else who wanted this deeded week.

What is the property

What features appealed to you location, size, season, amenities, intangibles

Perhaps a tugger can point you to a gem

Rent_Share said:

No you wouldn't because the fee and window are outside of your control, you would need to find someone else who wanted this deeded week.

What is the property

What features appealed to you location, size, season, amenities, intangibles

Perhaps a tugger can point you to a gem

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I would if I did not disclose the booking window restriction, like all of the list sellers, including redweek full service. None of them disclose this even though many are privy to this fact. I realize I would not do this so I would be stuck.

The unit is a 4BR lock-off at Westgate Smoky Mountain. I am definitely not buying it due to the 60 day window. What attracted me to it was the space, over 3,000 square feet with 16 sleeping capacity, for a relatively low fee. It is basically a quad lock-off but I would have kept it intact for personal use. Westgate originally combined the individual parts of three unit types in order to make 2, 3, and 4BR lockoffs. As an incentive for this combo purchase they set the maintence fee at a much lower level than the sum of the parts. This unit's fee is less than half that of the parts, $970 vs $2,220. Obviously the 60-day restriction is too much to overcome without even considering other negatives.

Saintsfanfl said:

I called reservations. They said the only difference is the $450 exchange fee versus $150 for an original owner. I pushed and they "thought" the booking window was the same 11 months. I wanted a definite answer so they told me to call owner services. I called and asked if there are restrictions in a resale. They just said yes. I asked if they could please tell me what they are particulary in regards to the booking window. I was put on hold for about 5 minutes. They came back and said that they are not allowed to give out that info unless I am already an owner. They gave me the number to the resale transaction office and I spoke to a very pleasant person. They said the booking window is outside their scope of knowledge and they couldn't believe that owner reservations and owner services would not provide it.

I ran across a thread from last year and a guest that owned resale at the resort in question chimed in about getting a memo that not only put in force the known $450 exchange fee but also a 60 booking window for all resale floating weeks.

SNIPE CANCELED!

Thanks for the info guys. It really got me on the ball on doing more due diligence. I can get careless at times. I would easily have been able to unload this unit but not without being dishonest on the booking window. Dishonestly is not my nature so I would have been stuck.

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And everyone should note that there is absolutely NO legally defensible position that Wastegate can produce that would allow an owner to be treated differently in their use rights because they bought resale vs retail. Where in any disclosure does that limitation appear? They are breaking the law, they know it, they thumb their collective noses at the owners & regulators as they know the risk of being called on it is so low.

If you own that week / unit you have the rights it was sold with as legally disclosed at that original purchase. Any subsequent sale transfers all those rights and or any limitations that were identified at that purchase. If there were no restrictions or other changes spelled out as being in existence when that sale was made then it cannot be retroactively added by Wastegate or anyone else after the fact.

If you did buy it and they tried to implement those restrictions then you could beat them easily in court. But the cost to do that - as well as the time - would be significant. They depend on that and that's why they risk it & say there are limitations knowing full well there really aren't. What a bunch of slime to be nice. Is it any wonder there are only unhappy Wastegate owners? Even if they have a nice resort (and most aren't when compared to others in the area, this one actually is very nice) they manage to screw the owners over and make it a disaster to be an owner or potential owner there.

GF got sucked into buying at PH. She bought a fixed week 52 so no restrictions on resale. However, her purchase contract had standard language stating there were major restrictions on most resale purchases.

It referred to Underwriting Documents , DECs, whatever, which spelled out the 60 day booking restriction, ROFR and other restrictions.

Yes rescission info was on disc buried in bottom of welcome kit.

Out of curiosity I have contacted a couple sellers of PH and when asked about any restrictions did not respond. Thanks to TUG, etc. the word is out!

As other posters here have indicated Westgate has unilaterally and retroactively tried to impose all sorts of restrictions knowing no single owner can afford a lawsuit.

Get a good II exchanger and you can trade in very easily.

Their sales people are right behind Mexico when it comes to scamming.

Seagull isn't paying for $100 million mansion and 8 kids by giving anyone a fair shake.

Westgate

Saintsfanfl said:

I would if I did not disclose the booking window restriction, like all of the list sellers, including redweek full service. None of them disclose this even though many are privy to this fact. I realize I would not do this so I would be stuck.

The unit is a 4BR lock-off at Westgate Smoky Mountain. I am definitely not buying it due to the 60 day window. What attracted me to it was the space, over 3,000 square feet with 16 sleeping capacity, for a relatively low fee. It is basically a quad lock-off but I would have kept it intact for personal use. Westgate originally combined the individual parts of three unit types in order to make 2, 3, and 4BR lockoffs. As an incentive for this combo purchase they set the maintence fee at a much lower level than the sum of the parts. This unit's fee is less than half that of the parts, $970 vs $2,220. Obviously the 60-day restriction is too much to overcome without even considering other negatives.

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You did not mention if you purchased a fixed week , I own a 4 bed lock off at the Lakes , and for 2013/2014 Resale owners if they exchange to another WG property which you mention your not , or exchanging past year week , or a fixed owner changing their dates Only Within 60 days of arrival will have to pay $450 and if you spilt the units 2 beds or higher lock fee is $450 like Paco stated deposit with a exchange company like Interval

ROSALIND7 said:

You did not mention if you purchased a fixed week , I own a 4 bed lock off at the Lakes , and for 2013/2014 Resale owners if they exchange to another WG property which you mention your not , or exchanging past year week , or a fixed owner changing their dates Only Within 60 days of arrival will have to pay $450 and if you spilt the units 2 beds or higher lock fee is $450 like Paco stated deposit with a exchange company like Interval

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It is a floating 4BR, otherwise the 60-day restriction wouldn't matter to me. I didn't buy it, I was only contemplating the purchase.

The eBay seller sent me a message stating that it was not true and the window is 12 months. First, the window is only 11 months, so right there his credibility is gone. Second, I know this same seller sold another Westgate property (different resort) last year where the buyer ran into the same 60 day restriction post closing. Third, there is a tug post from last year from a Smoky Mountain resale owner that stated a memo was received on May 8, 2012 that outlined the changes including the 60 day restriction for floaters. Fourth and last, I spoke to four people at various Westgate departments today and all four became somewhat hesitant when I pushed the issue on whether there is a shorter booking window for resales.

I didn't realize the lock-off fee was also $450. Just another reason to stay far far away from Westgate.

Well done...

Saintsfanfl said:

<snip> Just another reason to stay far far away from Westgate.

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Wise decision.

I don't know you personally, but my instinctive belief is that you are likely a good and decent person. Accordingly, you need an association with the slimy likes of Westgate like a fish needs a hat rack...

Saintsfanfl said:

It is a floating 4BR, otherwise the 60-day restriction wouldn't matter to me. I didn't buy it, I was only contemplating the purchase.

The eBay seller sent me a message stating that it was not true and the window is 12 months. First, the window is only 11 months, so right there his credibility is gone. Second, I know this same seller sold another Westgate property (different resort) last year where the buyer ran into the same 60 day restriction post closing. Third, there is a tug post from last year from a Smoky Mountain resale owner that stated a memo was received on May 8, 2012 that outlined the changes including the 60 day restriction for floaters. Fourth and last, I spoke to four people at various Westgate departments today and all four became somewhat hesitant when I pushed the issue on whether there is a shorter booking window for resales.

I didn't realize the lock-off fee was also $450. Just another reason to stay far far away from Westgate.

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Yes in your case for a resale purchase stay far away , but I purchased back in 2003 before I found a group like Tug . But we have no problems I go back there , or rent out to family and friends or deposit with Interval

Since we are disclosing info about the "bads" we've discovered about Westgate. Here is another one that made me uncomfortable:

• If you are giving your villa to a friend or relative as a gift to use, it is important to call us 1-800-925-9999 at least 60 days in advance of arrival and let us know. This will ensure your guest’s check-in is as smooth as possible.

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This applies to both original owners and resale owners. It doesn't specifically say what will happen if you try to add a name later but it implies that it will be problematic. So if you thought about renting your unit, you would need to make sure you had someone confirmed more than 2 months in advance. Also if for whatever reason you couldn't make it last minute giving the week to a friend or family member also could be a problem.


Wyndham has sales people threaten that if you buy resale you will get the worst units but in reality the people who assign rooms really don't care. My understanding is that at Westgate they really do put the black marks next to resale owners and encourage the people in charge of assigning rooms to assign the worst in category to resale owners.

David Siegal really believes he is the owner of ever bit of every Westgate resort and that he has the right to make any rules or change any rules as he sees fit. In newer resorts the legal language is buried so most buyers are unaware but even in the older resorts that he has no legal right to alter, he doesn't care. I would be very weary of even a fixed week, fixed unit at the most beautiful resort for the most desirable week that is affiliated with Westgate in anyway.

From the eBay seller:

Dear saintsfanfl,

We were made aware of this in the past. We are still in communication with people who have purchased Westgates from us in the past that has had this happen to them. They can book 11 months out. This is a scare tactic that they are using to make it seem that buying resale limits you. A developer cannot just send out a memo making a major change like this. It's highly illegal. They're bullying you into thinking you can only book 60 days out. Being in this industry, we can tell you that you that they cannot do this. Westgate has had multiple lawsuits filed against them regarding scare tactics like this. You can check with the county. We understand if you wish to not bid on this. But the fact of the matter is they cannot treat people who bought through resale any differently on reservation time.

Thanks for your consideration

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Concept vs. Reality...

What the eBay seller has openly acknowledged in the quoted content within post #20 above is certainly true in concept, but the indisputable fact still remains that Westgate does (...and will surely continue to do) whatever they want to do in order to advance and protect their own financial interests.

Unhappy Westgate owners and / or assorted lawsuits notwithstanding, it doesn't matter a bit what Westgate cannot do "in theoretical concept", when they are in fact already routinely and daily doing whatever they choose to do "in actual reality". Another poster noted previously that Westgate CEO David Sea Gull acts as if everything within Westgate is his, to handle however he may see fit. He seems to regard and treat Westgate buyers not as "owners" at all, but as mere "contibuting donors" voluntarily supporting his financial enterprise.
Gotta get that Versailles Wanna-Be castle finished one way or another, after all...

There are other threads in which candidates have been anecdotally mentioned for the dubious distinction of being "the worst of the worst" in the timeshare industry. Mexico was nominated, but that's a foreign country. Wyndham and DRI were mentioned as American candidates, but IMnsHO the sheer hubris and arrogance of David Sea Gull and his entire "Wastegate" operation is simply without peer or equal here within the U.S.

theo said:

Gotta get that Versailles Wanna-Be castle finished one way or another, after all...

There are other threads in which candidates have been anecdotally mentioned for the dubious distinction of being "the worst of the worst" in the timeshare industry. Mexico was nominated, but that's a foreign country. Wyndham and DRI were mentioned as American candidates, but IMnsHO the sheer hubris and arrogance of David Sea Gull and his entire "Wastegate" operation is simply without peer or equal here within the U.S.

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Your take on the King & his sleazy empire matches mine perfectly. They are simply said the worst of the worst!