We sold WKORV-N

After a few attempts of selling our VOI, only to get cold feet and pull it off the market, we finally went through with the sale of our 2 bdrm OF unit at WKORV-N. Many things converged to make us want to sell now, including:

• Airfare is still sky high, $1100+ from Ohio, which makes it prohibitively expensive for a couple or another family to join us, even with free lodging. I envy those of you who live on the West Coast and can get there so much easier and cheaper.
  
• We’re empty nesters and our travel group has outgrown 2 bedrooms. In '14, we're renting a 5 bdrm home in St. Maarten.
  
• With Starwood now allowing owners to bank SOs, I fear it will be even more difficult to exchange to WSJ via SVN.
  
• With an abundance of Maui rentals on the market, renting my week out may not be the easy fix that it used to be. Plus, renting is a PITA.
  
• Hopefully, they’ll add more resorts soon, but we felt very confined by SVO’s limited selection.
  
• The huge disparity in MFs: SOs among the different resorts made it financially disadvantageous for us to fully utilize SVN.
  
• I’d grown tired of having to call at 9am, 12 months out to secure the best view.
  
• This year, several weeks in Jan/Feb 2014 sold out within minutes of the reservation line opening. That’s the first time I’ve ever not gotten a reservation when calling at 12 months out. It’s limiting enough to have to call 8-12 months ahead of time, especially since at times it's before you can even secure award seats/airline reservations… but calling at 9am 12 months out and STILL being squeezed out? Yikes!

So, those are main reasons we're selling. I hope I haven't left anyone with the impression that I'm bitter. I’m not at all. I actually enjoyed my ownership, and making the decision to sell was difficult. At the end of the day, we THOUGHT we bought at a place that we'd want to visit every other year, but that just didn't turn out to be the case. If I lived closer, I have no doubt that we'd still use our week most years. In fact, If I lived closer, I'd still BUY an OF week if I could get it past ROFR, because I'd take my girlfriends if my husband couldn't go. It's a great resort, even with the $2400/week in MFs!

In the 6 years that I owned WKORV-N, we took some great vacations, though we only traveled to Maui twice during our ownership -- once with another family, and once with just our girls. That last trip remains my favorite family vacation of all time. We went to both Maui and BI that year. Highlights of the trip include celebrating my youngest daughter’s 16th (!) birthday at the Marriott Waikoloa restaurant, visiting Volcanoes National Park and standing on ground younger than we were, swimming with huge manta rays at night, learning to surf, and ziplining. It couldn’t have been better.

In '09, we discovered WSJ, after scoring an SVN exchange on my first try! It is now our favorite SVN resort, for lots of reasons. We returned in '11 and hope to return in '15, if we can luck out and score a 3rd exchange using our SVV week. We love escaping the Ohio winters. There is no better feeling than in the span of 6 hours changing from your heavy clothes into a pair of shorts once you arrive in the USVI. My husband and his friends love the snorkeling, which is outstanding. I love the sandy beaches and beautiful turquoise waters. It's not Hawaii, but it has its own charm, and most importantly, it's close!

Since I know I'll be asked, I sold my unit after listing it on Redweek for $25k on 2/10. On 2/19, we accepted an offer for $22k (to us) all-in. I was just informed that Starwood exercised its ROFR, so it seems that I’ll be dealing with Starwood moving forward. I’ll definitely let you know how soon it takes them to cut me a check, so be on notice Starwood sales department. Overall, we're happy with the price and not to have to worry about renting the week out in '14 since we're heading to St. Maarten instead.

FYI, here's how we used our ownership over the years:

'08 WKORV-N summer 2 bdrm - personally used and brought another family
'09 Exchanged via SVN to WSJ
'10 WKORV-N - used the 1 bdrm side for ourselves, and deposited the studio into II, which we later exchanged for a SVV 2 bdrm for my SIL and her family
'11 Used SVN to book a 3 bdrm at HRA in May, and rented it out on Redweek; used remaining SOs to book 2 nights at WKV
'12 Exchanged via SVN to WSJ
'13 Booked WKORV-N 2 bdrm and rented it out to a co-worker

That's all. Enjoy your day and happy timesharing!

You're happy with your decision, so congrats! It seems like you made good use of your ownership over the years, but I can understand wanting to streamline and not deal with all the uncertainties.

In any case, you're still in the Starwood family with your SVV week, so I expect you'll still be around and contributing to the board.

Glorian

Yes, congrats on the sale of your villa, LisaRex! Your reasons echo a lot of my feelings about our ownership in Maui, especially #1, 4, 6, 7, and 8. After a few years, I'm getting past that "honeymoon stage", and see our long-term relationship is going to take a bit more work on my part. It's been great for our big extended family, though. We're always asked when our next trip to Hawaii is, and do we have room for them? Family time is priceless, so I hope to be able to make our Maui VOI's work for many years to come.

Please let us know how the sale to Starwood goes. Hopefully it is a quick and efficient transaction!

Thanks for sharing with us. I am glad you are happy with your decision. I am also glad you still own SVV as otherwise I would surely miss your TUG postings.

LisaRex said:

....
FYI, here's how we used our ownership over the years:

'08 WKORV-N summer 2 bdrm - personally used and brought another family
'09 Exchanged via SVN to WSJ
'10 WKORV-N - used the 1 bdrm side for ourselves, and deposited the studio into II, which we later exchanged for a SVV 2 bdrm for my SIL and her family
'11 Used SVN to book a 3 bdrm at HRA in May, and rented it out on Redweek; used remaining SOs to book 2 nights at WKV
'12 Exchanged via SVN to WSJ
'13 Booked WKORV-N 2 bdrm and rented it out to a co-worker..

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It sounds like you got good usage out of this timeshare. Even though you mostly went to other resorts via II/SVN, the MFs at these other resorts were just as high as at your home resort, so they were equal trades. (SVV has lower fees, of course, but there you got a larger unit in trade.)

I've heard the average length of house ownership is only seven years -- people's real estate needs change, and that applies to timeshares, too. So, there's no reason to feel bad about adjusting one's timeshare ownerships.

Congratulations on your sale and thanks for sharing the information.

Hopefully the process with SVO will be quick and efficient for you.

-ryan

I sold my WKORV-N and was notified on December 04, 2012 that Starwood had excercised the contract.

I recieved my check Fedex from starwood on March 05, 2013.

So my 1 data point states it will be appx 90 days before you get the check.

Thanks for sharing - and congrats.
As others have said - I have always enjoyed your posts, and hope that doesn't end.
Maybe we will see you at WSJ someday.

Thanks everyone for the good wishes. Traveling is one of my passions so I'm sure ill stick around for a good while to get ideas and feedback from seasoned travelers.

Ocean front for $22K, not bad. Congrats!

LisaH said:

Ocean front for $22K, not bad. Congrats!

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That's about the going rate these days.

Thanks for your post, LisaRex! And WSJ has tennis courts! Enjoy what you still own and your flexibility.

Congrats on the sale!

That's great info. Thanks for sharing. Happy travels!

I Had Same Experience and am Considering Selling Too

Super valuable post echoing so many of my own sentiments, except I got up at 5:30am today (in San Francisco) to call a year in advance for the two OF deluxes we own at KOVR and after 35 minutes on hold, was told no inventory available that week. (Nor any week from Jan to present, obviously). "Can you call back tomorrow and come on Sunday?" <Even less units are ever avail for Sunday checkins>. "Can you adjust your plans <for your family of 10?>" And somehow, 24 other people managed to speak to someone in the 30 minutes while I sat on hold. And this is for a week not even remotely near Easter. NEVER had this happen before - and sadly, I just purchased 2 OV and one EOY OF in Cancun this past November, to reach what I had thought would be the 5 star Elite level, which also makes me SPG Platinum. (and 5 Star Stupid, unfortunately).

In the few months I've been at these two "elite" levels, ALL 3 of my experiences with Starwood have ranged from lackluster to POOR. So now I am contemplating taking the hit on Cancun and just dumping it all. I take the hit on the unit buyins but knock out almost 10K in annual MF's. (Like Lisa, we had 5 years in Maui that was pleasant). For what I pay in annual MF, I can spend a month at a Four Seasons and be treated *well*. I've gone from "highly recommending" to feeling like I made the worst decision - ever.

trvlfan200 said:

NEVER had this happen before -

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That's so disheartening to hear! I really, really hope that no shenanigans are being played, with Starwood cherry picking more than their fair share of inventory from these high demand weeks to rent out at a premium, leaving owners who paid a fortune to buy there with the leftovers. Unfortunately, there is zero transparency with Starwood, which is why I believe they do not have an online system yet -- people would be able to see that there was very little inventory available at 9am 365 days out, and put 2 and 2 together.

Of course, there are other less nefarious reasons why we're suddenly seeing weeks sell out so quickly. Perhaps it's as simple as the HOA finally clearing out most of the delinquencies, which is what we want them to do, but the inevitable downside is more competition for prime weeks.

And, of course, it certainly doesn't help that both Marriott and Starwood played fast and loose with their "platinum" year round designation. No way is mid-October the same demand as whale season. But that's how they coded it, so if there are 24 OF deluxe units in the whole place, you're potentially competing with over 1100 owners for any given week.

Anyway, glad my post inspired you to come join in the discussion. Welcome to Tug! I've sold my WKORV-N week, but I'll stick around as long as I own my SVV week. I bought it as an experiment, so we'll see how it pans out.

While I do not own WLR (and would not) - I think the availability issue for WKORV/N is a problem while WLR will not be for the most part. It is interesting to hear about availability issues at WKORV/N - especially for OF at WKORVN since there are so many of them. We did not have a problem getting into our OFD last year during whale season, but will probably not go back during that time of year (even though the whale watching was great). We prefer it hot, calmer seas, and less crowded - I think we will stick to early Sept - seems to work best for us.

Owning OFD and OFC does appear to have its challenges with reservations during high season. Keep in mind that their is a pecking order for reservations that is listed in the OM (CCRs) - and discussed in another thread. None of it is linked (officially) to Elite Status iirc.

Certainly worth keeping in mind that Elite status is for SVO, and Plat/Gold status is for SPG - and not visa-versa. You might get some bump because of it - but you set yourself up for disappointment to have this as an expectation. There are certainly tons of SPG Platinums around judging from Flyertalk - and I certainly would be not be happy if I got bumped lower (location or reservation-wise) on my OFD ownership just because someone is SPG Plat (nor would it be right, and against the OM which would certainly be an issue).

Having one Platinum season is not without problems, but the opposite (having multiple seasons) has bigger issues (IMO) since the MFs are the same across seasons, yet have different SO scale - you may find low season Owners bailing and the MFs increase overall to make up for the loss of revenue by the HOA - this has occurred for other SVO resorts. Not sure if it would happen for WKORV/N or WPORV, but it was not hidden anywhere when we bought and we were always told it was based on availability (although most probably didn't realize the consequences).

Now if SVO/SVN is holding back these villas for their own usage and denying Owners from reserving at 12 months (or during the Owners reservation period) - then that is an entirely different issue, and as LisaRex says - it comes down to transparency which is lacking for SVO when it comes to these issues. Legally, there must be a VOI for everyone that owns one, but if SVO/SVO own (let's say) 10% of the VOIs - then there is nothing stopping them from holding and renting the high-season VOIs for a premium without compensation to the HOA, and therefore locking out float owners - then this is a real issue. It would not surprise me if this is occurring, and they certainly have the infra-structure in place to take advantage ('Greed is Good' as they say on Wall Street...).

Without better transparency and real owners on the HOA BOD - I doubt if we will ever know - and we have been down this road before without success...

While I paid too much for our OFD (compared to todays' cost) - I am certainly glad I rescinded OF WKORVN for $74K (ouch! that would be extra painful...).

DavidnRobin said:

Having one Platinum season is not without problems, but the opposite (having multiple seasons) has bigger issues (IMO) since the MFs are the same across seasons, yet have different SO scale - you may find low season Owners bailing and the MFs increase overall to make up for the loss of revenue by the HOA - this has occurred for other SVO resorts. Not sure if it would happen for WKORV/N or WPORV, but it was not hidden anywhere when we bought and we were always told it was based on availability (although most probably didn't realize the consequences).

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I agree. However, the problem wouldn't be as bad if the HOAs were really running the place, and only charging owners what it truly takes to "maintain" the place. There's no way it takes $100k+ to "maintain" a 2 bdrm villa and that's AFTER the onerous property taxes are paid. By contrast, a 2 bdrm villa up the street at Honua Kai, which has a fitness room, pool, etc. has monthly MFs of $1300, a difference of $88,400 per year. Granted, Honua Kai doesn't have to furnish their condos or run a 30-person reservation line, but I think we all know those MFs are not just for maintenance.

The good news is that I think we've seen a leveling out of MFs these last few years because the developers realized that there was a point of diminishing return. Because, as you say, and as we personally saw a few years ago, folks will simply bail if they don't find value any more. So, indirectly, the market is helping MFs remain stable.

http://www.mauirealestate.net/GetSearch.php?WhatMLS=355242

Having one Platinum season is not without problems, but the opposite (having multiple seasons) has bigger issues (IMO) since the MFs are the same across seasons ...

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Having one Platinum season at WKORV/N seems to me to be quite a problem. The problem is the possibility of 52 owners competing for units for every "desirable" week. Also, if you are bothered by multiple season resorts having the same MFs across all seasons, buy Platinum at a multiple season resort.

For the prime view units (OFC and OFD) the competition problem is compounded by those Event Week owners who have paid substantially more to fix their unit/week of usage. Event Week reservations decrease availability at 9 am 12 months from arrival. Those reservations are automatically confirmed without even calling 12 months from arrival. Some Event Week owners even own consecutive weeks.

Anyone buying non-Event Week OFC or OFD resale should be aware of the competition by up to 52 owners for each of the same type unit for those left over weeks after the availability is decreased by the Event Week owners.

I just checked the "Villa Resort Availability Finder" for WKORV from September 28, 2013 until November 9, 2013 (last current 8 month arrival). Every single day had all types of unit (1-br, studio or 2-br) listed as available. Of course, most available units will not be OFC or OFD.

As I see it, WKORV/N is a victim of Starwood's success in selling Event Weeks for those "desirable" weeks. Salty

As someone with a pending offer on an OV 2BR at WKORV (currently pending ROFR), this is a very interesting thread. It's definitely giving me pause and something to reconsider if/when ROFR is exercised (I'm pretty sure it will be).

That said, I have a few questions that I probably should've thought about before putting in an offer! :

• I thought HOAs were regulated, independent, non-profit entities run by owners, not by and for the benefit of the management company. Is this not the case?
• Don't home-resort owners have some duration (say 12 - 9 months out) to make reservations ahead of others trying to use banked SOs to book? Still not a great thing for single-week owners competing against other "Elite status" and event week owners, but potentially not as bad as it could be.
• We stayed at the Ka'anapali Beach Club in January which is when we found and fell in love with WKORV. That said, KBC wasn't bad at all. Given the downsides discussed here for WKORV/N and the relatively inexpensive purchase and MF costs for the KBC, should we consider that property instead? We were VERY put off by Diamond Resorts International in general, but the location was great and the property is very nice (if a little tired in the common areas).

Anyway, thanks for the very interesting discussion and congrats and best-wishes to the OP!

OV will not pose the same reservation difficulty as OF and OFD at WKORV.

feckman said:

As someone with a pending offer on an OV 2BR at WKORV (currently pending ROFR), this is a very interesting thread. It's definitely giving me pause and something to reconsider if/when ROFR is exercised (I'm pretty sure it will be).

That said, I have a few questions that I probably should've thought about before putting in an offer! :

• I thought HOAs were regulated, independent, non-profit entities run by owners, not by and for the benefit of the management company. Is this not the case?
• Don't home-resort owners have some duration (say 12 - 9 months out) to make reservations ahead of others trying to use banked SOs to book? Still not a great thing for single-week owners competing against other "Elite status" and event week owners, but potentially not as bad as it could be.
• We stayed at the Ka'anapali Beach Club in January which is when we found and fell in love with WKORV. That said, KBC wasn't bad at all. Given the downsides discussed here for WKORV/N and the relatively inexpensive purchase and MF costs for the KBC, should we consider that property instead? We were VERY put off by Diamond Resorts International in general, but the location was great and the property is very nice (if a little tired in the common areas).

Anyway, thanks for the very interesting discussion and congrats and best-wishes to the OP!

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WKORV is an excellent property, the best TS on Maui IMO. The only issue I had was the high MFs. You should have no problem getting an Oceanview during your home resort period. I think the limited Ocean Front units is the issue. This year I called 3 months prior to arrival and got a 1 bedroom WKORV North for last week of Jan for 10 nights in Island view and than switched for 1 night into an Ocean Front studio on WKORV North side.

Here are the number of villas at WKORV-N, based on view designation. I know this was written somewhere for the south side, but I can't find it right now. Looks like there were a lot more OF and IV units sold at north than OV. (I hope I counted right!)

Island View (24)
5119/17, 5120/18, 5121/23, 5122/24,
5219/17, 5220/18, 5221/23, 5222/24,
5319/17, 5320/18, 5321/23, 5322/24,
5419/17, 5420/18, 5421/23, 5422/24,
5519/17, 5520/18, 5521/23, 5522/24,
5619/17, 5620/18, 5621/23, 5622/24.

Ocean Front (48)
5101/02, 5103/04, 5106/05, 5108/07, 5110/09, 5111/12, 5114/13, 5115/16,
5201/02, 5203/04, 5406/05, 5208/07, 5210/09, 5211/12, 5214/13, 5215/16,
5301/02, 5303/04, 5306/05, 5308/07, 5310/09, 5311/12, 5314/13, 5315/16,
5401/02, 5403/04, 5406/05, 5408/07, 5410/09, 5411/12, 5414/13, 5416/16,
5501/02, 5503/04, 5506/05, 5508/07, 5510/09, 5511/12, 5514/13, 5515/16,
5601/02, 5603/04, 5606/05, 5608/07, 5610/09, 5611/12, 5614/13, 5615/16.

Building 6
Island View (all) (74)
6127/25, 6128/26, 6129/31, 6130/32, 6133/35, 6136/34, 6154/53, 6156/66, 6157/58, 6227/25, 6228/26, 6229/31, 6230/32, 6233/35, 6236/34, 6240/38, 6242/44, 6254/53, 6256/55, 6257/58,
6327/25, 6328/26, 6329/31, 6330/32, 6333/35, 6336/34, 6340/38, 6342/44, 6354/53, 6356/55, 6357/58
6427/25, 6428/26, 6429/31, 6430/32, 6433/35, 6436/34, 6440/38, 6442/44, 6446/45, 6447/48, 6450/49, 6451/52, 6454/53, 6456/55, 6457/58
6527/25, 6528/26, 6529/31, 6530/32, 6533/35, 6536/34, 6540/38, 6542/44, 6546/45, 6547/48, 6550/49, 6551/52, 6554/53, 6556/55, 6557/58,
6627/25, 6628/26, 6629/31, 6630/32, 6633/35, 6636/34, 6646/45, 6647/48, 6650/49, 6651/52, 6654/53, 6656/55, and 6657/58

Building 7
Island View (29)
7160/59, 7161/62, 7170/69, 7172/71, 7174/73, 7176/75, 7178/77, 7180/79, 7182/81, 7184/83,
7260/59, 7261/62, 7263/64, 7278/77, 7280/79, 7282/81, 7284/83,
7360/59, 7361/62, 7363/64,
7460/59, 7461/62, 7463/64,
7560/59, 7561/62, 7563/64,
7660/59, 7661/62, 7663/64

Ocean View (42)
7167/68,
7265/66, 7267/68, 7270/69, 7272/71, 7274/73, 7276/75,
7365/66, 7367/68, 7370, 7372/71, 7374/73, 7376/75, 7378/77, 7380/79, 7382/81, 7384/83,
7465/66, 7467/68, 7470/69, 7472/71, 7474/73, 7476/75, 7478/77, 7480/79, 7482/81, 7484/83,
7565/66, 7567/68, 7570/69, 7572/71, 7574/73, 7576/75, 7578/77, 7580/79, 7582/81, 7665/66, 7670/69, 7672/71, 7674/73, 7676/75, 7678/77

Building 8
Ocean Front (all) (41)
8101/02, 8103/04, 8105/06, 8107/08, 8110/09, 8112/11, 8114/13
8201/02, 8203/04, 8205/06, 8207/08, 8210/09, 8212/11, 8214/13
8301/02, 8303/04, 8305/06, 8307/08, 8310/09, 8312/11, 8314/13
8401/02, 8403/04, 8405/06, 8407/08, 8410/09, 8412/11, 8414/13
8501/02, 8503/04, 8505/06, 8507/08, 8510/09, 8512/11, 8514/13
8603/04, 8605/06, 8607/08, 8610/09, 8612/11, 8614/13

LisaRex said:

By contrast, a 2 bdrm villa up the street at Honua Kai, which has a fitness room, pool, etc. has monthly MFs of $1300, a difference of $88,400 per year. Granted, Honua Kai doesn't have to furnish their condos or run a 30-person reservation line, but I think we all know those MFs are not just for maintenance.

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Actually, I believe the Honua Kai includes furnishings. After all, they need to be consistent across units in order to be rented as a hotel. I suppose if you opt out of the rental program altogether you don't need to furnish it, but I have no idea if this is a separate charge or not. I suspect there are other charges as well, including cleaning etc.

Fredm said:

OV will not pose the same reservation difficulty as OF and OFD at WKORV.

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Fred, ... True. Despite high air fares to HI and time changes and high MFs (Maui´s an island like St. John and Paradise Island!), demand is high for HI (especially on the Pacific Coast) and it´s all about supply and demand in Maui. Pay more; greater guaranty you will get what you want when you want it.

In my mind, the greatest problem with Starwood Maui is that the number of people in the rooms at the resort swamps the pool areas and, therefore, the resort though large seems congested most of the time. Posted from the Sheraton Iguassu Falls. Salty