I have a question and need advice

uno727 · Oct 23, 2011

I have been a member at a Texas timeshare for 3 years now and enjoy it. The management group has been accepting weeks from delinquent owners back for no cost. Then they are saying that since there are less "active" owners, we now need to divide the costs between less owners so higher maintenance costs ... Does this sound right?? It seems that with higher costs, more will leave and my costs will continue to skyrocket. The new management group also just took ownership of the inactive weeks. Since the weeks are not owned by the association anymore shouldn't the management group be considered "owners" also?? They own the adjacent country club and give the units out as comps to their workers. I feel that once the unit (legally owned by the management group) is used for even a day, then they should have to pay the same for that week as I do... Please help me figure out what stops them from driving me out with doubling fees. They have gone from $400 3 years ago to $1200 now and the only reason is the reduced number of owners ,which they are actively encouraging!!

AwayWeGo · Oct 23, 2011

Which Came 1st, Willy-Nilly Acceptance Of Deedbacks Or Skyrocketing Maintenance Fees?

Last year we deeded our dinky points timeshare back to the resort because the fees had gone up all out of proportion & were still escalating.

Accepting deedbacks raises everyone's fees, unless the timeshare association has a magic pipeline for getting those deeds promptly into the hands of new, fee-paying owners.

As long as the association holds the deeds, the fees of the dwindling number of remaining owners will necessarily go up to cover the units no longer owned by fee-paying owners.

The higher the timeshare fees go, the greater the number of owners who get fed up & either abandon their units or give'm back to the association (assuming the association is willing to take'm).

It's not only a vicious cycle, it's a potential timeshare death spiral.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

ronparise · Oct 23, 2011

If we assume that the folks deeding their units back to the association or management company are not paying their maintenance fees, or will stop paying if they cant deed it back, then It seems to me that the fees will go up anyway. The fact that the management company is doing this and not the association and the fact that they are making it so easy, makes me suspect their motives

The management company or the owners association should has a plan in place to sell these units, rent them or give them away. If they dont I would bet that their plan is to push the resort to failure and take it over themselves

vacationhopeful · Oct 23, 2011

Allowing the units to be used as "comp's" for their employees with FMV as payment is a misuse of their duty as property managers. There should be a "rack" rate for nightly usage - could include a midweek nightly rate, a weekend nightly, seasonal rates, a minimum number of nights rented, etc.

Hence, a business analysis showing a floor rack rate -- ie as to where the cost to rent for 1 night would cover the cost of housekeeping and credit card fees. Free certainly would not cover any costs nor would a $25 fee.

As for the minumum of collecting a full week MFs for night or two is perhaps NOT a good plan - adage of "Sometime is better than nothing" would be in play. But the rate MUST cover the costs for the associated stay and something towards the unpaid MFs.

Many resorts offer "bonus" time to owners as a reduced weekly rate - esp for low season time. Other's allow a partial MFs payment to deposit a low season week into an exchange company. Other sell weeks directly to other owners - all seasons at a very low cost.

theo · Oct 23, 2011

I'm confused...

uno727 said:
The management group has been accepting weeks from delinquent owners back for no cost..... The new management group also just took ownership of the inactive weeks.....Since the weeks are not owned by the association anymore shouldn't the management group be considered "owners" also?? .....

Please help me figure out what stops them from driving me out with doubling fees. They have gone from $400 3 years ago to $1200 now...

I do not pretend for one moment to know the intricacies or details of your unidentified facility or its' ownership structure, but I am at first blush quite puzzled by your assertion that a management company (i.e., not the HOA) is somehow acquiring control of "deedbacks".

Unless this is a facility still in active "developer sales", with a developer-controlled BOD comprised of developer toadies, I don't really see or understand how the management company can possibly "take over" association-owned weeks (...unless it's the obvious answer that they are actually buying those weeks outright, in which case they (if no developer controlled HOA is present or involved) would then become just as responsible for paying annual maintenance fees as any other owner(s). Or so it seems to me anyhow, based on the limited facts, details and information currently on the table here.

In short, not enough information. Escalating maintenance fees to pick up the slack of deadbeat owners is a risk inherent to any and all timeshare facilities.
I sure hope yours is not a situation where a developer controlled BOD is involved, in which case they can indeed "take back" weeks, then pay nothing in fees (...to themselves, the developer) and just have the remaining owners shoulder an ever-increasing financial burden to support and maintain the place.

P.S. Some people advise purchasing and owning timeshare weeks only at independent facilities (i.e., where weeks are already fully sold out, the developer long gone and "out of the picture" and which have a legitimate HOA / BOD now comprised solely of "real" owners; i.e., no developer lackeys on the BOD). This is, in my opinion, very good advice for independent resorts, but perhaps less applicable where "big boy" chains like Hyatt, Marriott, Wyndham, etc. are involved.

bogey21 · Oct 23, 2011

theo said:
P.S. Some people advise purchasing and owning timeshare weeks only at independent facilities (i.e., those which are already fully sold out, with the developer long gone and completely "out of the picture" and which have a legitimate HOA / BOD now comprised solely of "real" owners (i.e., no developer lackeys on the Board). This is, in my opinion, very good advice for independent resorts, but advice which is perhaps less applicable when "big boy" chains like Hyatt, Marriott, Wyndham, etc. are involved.

Many of us who will buy only at Independents controlled by their HOA/BOD will have nothing to do with the "big boy" chains. Except to trade into their Resorts when we can!!

George

theo · Oct 23, 2011

Yessa!

bogey21 said:
Many of us who will buy only at Independents controlled by their HOA/BOD will have nothing to do with the "big boy" chains. Except to trade into their Resorts when we can!!

George

Understood and fully agreed. I am in that same camp as well (...except that I have no interest in "exchanging").

I learned a harsh (but hopefully well retained) lesson previously, owning (via inexpensive resale, fortunately) within developer controlled Celebrity Resorts, since reinvented as Legacy Vacation Club after driving Celebrity headlong into bankruptcy a few years ago. Good riddance to Jared Meyers and his lackeys! :hi:

uno727 · Oct 23, 2011

a little more info.

I think Ronparise has the correct assumption. There is no developer in this current facility. It is quite the place. It is right on a lake , but nothing is developed and the buildings are in need of repair. They are clean and all, but caught in the 90's.
The management company took over this last year and they have told everyone in town that they bought the place.
There are rumors that the former management received a "large" payment to turn the management over to the new group.
When I heard this I decided to check at the county courthouse, and indeed 2/3( 800 of 1200) of the available weeks were quick-claimed from the owners association to the management company for a grand sum of $10.
It seems that they are trying to just go ahead and take it over so they can develop the property.
This seems wrong. I want to protect my right to stay for a week a year,, but if they put all of the costs down to a smaller and smaller amount of people I will not be able to afford it. Is there something I can do??
I have our annual meeting in 2 weeks and would like to go and know what to say.

This is an older timeshare and most of the active owners that are left just use it for the RCI points. Can I ask RCI for help???

Help!!

tschwa2 · Oct 23, 2011

If they own 800 units they should be paying MF on 800 units. If they have taken over the HOA and are accepting deedbacks and keeping them for the HOA in which all owners have to pay for the empty units, you may want to think about getting out while they still let you. What you are describing has been happening to several resorts over the last few years. Unless owners can take control ASAP you will be in a lot of trouble.

uno727 · Oct 23, 2011

would you approach the company that is trying the takeover and offer to sell, or would you be happy to just give up and take the loss oft he purchase cost??
When I saw that they had deeded the 800 weeks to the management grp. I felt as that was good.If they are owners then we split the costs and mine go down. But if they are allowed to be "inactive" owners, who let people use their units without paying, I have a Very bad feel.
Is there some sort of consumer protection against this??
I use the vacation to visit a friend who lives there and really have enjoyed the 3 years, but I am at my wits end . How they can do this to people who own their week and have paid on time at all occasions??

:annoyed:

tschwa2 · Oct 23, 2011

If its Diamond (DRI) or Festiva I would get out as fast as possible if they will take your deed back or try to sell independently if you have to pay a large fee to deed back.

Whoever it is do a search for them here to see if you can see how it turned out for others in similar situation. Hanging on while your MF triples in 3 years and the resort is still accepting deedbacks while passing the rising costs to the other owners is not going to work out well for the real owners. The management company is getting a larger strangle hold on resort while pushing out the deeded owners and then after the resort has been "brought up to standards" they will sell off the units for their own profit.

uno727 · Oct 23, 2011

what I was afraid of

This is West Wind Manor in Lake Bridgeport Texas. I don't want to turn it in and just lose my original investment. If they have legally transferred the deeds for the weeks from the HOA to the management company ( filed at the courthouse) do you think it should be brought up at the meeting and that they should have to pay for the weeks??
I would like to know if this is even legal. I know that nobody would sell 2/3 of this lake property for $10. Should I check with the local tax assessor??

Is the best I can hope for is losing my original investment??

I appreciate if I need to take the loss, that you guys tell me . I am just disgusted , as I had found what I wanted in a timeshare ( other than the lack of updating).

Any suggestions ???

ronparise · Oct 23, 2011

uno727 said:
This is West Wind Manor in Lake Bridgeport Texas. I don't want to turn it in and just lose my original investment. If they have legally transferred the deeds for the weeks from the HOA to the management company ( filed at the courthouse) do you think it should be brought up at the meeting and that they should have to pay for the weeks??
I would like to know if this is even legal. I know that nobody would sell 2/3 of this lake property for $10. Should I check with the local tax assessor??

Is the best I can hope for is losing my original investment??

I appreciate if I need to take the loss, that you guys tell me . I am just disgusted , as I had found what I wanted in a timeshare ( other than the lack of updating).

Any suggestions ???

It isnt that you need to take a loss, its that you have taken a loss.. Your initial investment was gone 10 days after you wrote the check..I doubt that you will ever get it back...Id go to the annual meeting to learn what I can, because this stuff interests me, But unless I was surprised by what I learn there, Id get out while the getting is good

Let them have your week and buy a replacement on ebay for a dollar or two

Maple_Leaf · Oct 23, 2011

Get out while you still can

uno727 said:
This is West Wind Manor in Lake Bridgeport Texas. I don't want to turn it in and just lose my original investment. If they have legally transferred the deeds for the weeks from the HOA to the management company ( filed at the courthouse) do you think it should be brought up at the meeting and that they should have to pay for the weeks??
I would like to know if this is even legal. I know that nobody would sell 2/3 of this lake property for $10. Should I check with the local tax assessor??

Is the best I can hope for is losing my original investment??

I appreciate if I need to take the loss, that you guys tell me . I am just disgusted , as I had found what I wanted in a timeshare ( other than the lack of updating).

Any suggestions ???

You are not the only timeshare owner experiencing this:

http://www.orilliapacket.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3336610

You are on the Titanic. Head for the lifeboats.

timeos2 · Oct 23, 2011

uno727 said:
This is West Wind Manor in Lake Bridgeport Texas. I don't want to turn it in and just lose my original investment. If they have legally transferred the deeds for the weeks from the HOA to the management company ( filed at the courthouse) do you think it should be brought up at the meeting and that they should have to pay for the weeks??
I would like to know if this is even legal. I know that nobody would sell 2/3 of this lake property for $10. Should I check with the local tax assessor??

Is the best I can hope for is losing my original investment??

I appreciate if I need to take the loss, that you guys tell me . I am just disgusted , as I had found what I wanted in a timeshare ( other than the lack of updating).

Any suggestions ???

Of course they should pay! They are now the owners and are using the time. They cannot legally do that in all likelihood - you woners should challenge it immediately! Go to a Board meeting after writing a demand that they (the Association Board) collect from ALL owners including the Developer/Management. No way this is right nor allowed. Don't sit back - find other owners and take a stand.

You should not have to lose what you invested or have it deteriorating. Step up and act as the owners you are and turn it around. It can & has been done in many cases. Now it's your turn. Best of luck to you. Feel free to ask for help/suggestions here as many have been through this type of management/developer abuse of owners and have won in the end.

Tia · Oct 24, 2011

Change the name of the thread to ' West Wind Manor in Lake Bridgeport Texas' is my thought. Other owners might find it then.

uno727 said:
This is West Wind Manor in Lake Bridgeport Texas. I don't want to turn it in and just lose my original investment. If they have legally transferred the deeds for the weeks from the HOA to the management company ( filed at the courthouse) do you think it should be brought up at the meeting and that they should have to pay for the weeks??
I would like to know if this is even legal. I know that nobody would sell 2/3 of this lake property for $10. Should I check with the local tax assessor??

Is the best I can hope for is losing my original investment??

I appreciate if I need to take the loss, that you guys tell me . I am just disgusted , as I had found what I wanted in a timeshare ( other than the lack of updating).

Any suggestions ???

Brerrabbit · Oct 24, 2011

Possible solution

I think if I ever buy another timeshare, it will be only on the condition, written into the contract, that if the maintenance fees are raised for any reason, that I have the option to sell the timeshare back to the timeshare company for the full purchase price that I paid for it.

Sometimes I think that sooner or later, some bunch of owners at some timeshare are going to get fed up with it, and get together somehow and take over the whole thing, and turn it into condos, and sell them, and split up the money among the owners of the former timeshare weeks.

ronparise · Oct 24, 2011

Brerrabbit said:
I think if I ever buy another timeshare, it will be only on the condition, written into the contract, that if the maintenance fees are raised for any reason, that I have the option to sell the timeshare back to the timeshare company for the full purchase price that I paid for it.

Sometimes I think that sooner or later, some bunch of owners at some timeshare are going to get fed up with it, and get together somehow and take over the whole thing, and turn it into condos, and sell them, and split up the money among the owners of the former timeshare weeks.

Good luck with that

Scott Riddle · Oct 24, 2011

Deed-Backs & the HOA's + owners

I was a guest speaker at the Timeshare Board Members Association in Scottsdale AZ last week. TBMA, www.tbmassoc.com, a non-profit group that help T/S resorts that are controlled by its owners to share resources. There was good mix of resort Board Members from Ma to VT to MT to CA, 35+. One of the main concerns of the independent resorts was the maintenance fees delinquencies and the deed-backs. I have been involved with timeshare since 1981 and I sit on the Board of Directors at my own resort. Previously to 2007 deed-back and returned weeks to the HOA were not an issue as there was always a new owner to be found for a price. The T/S world changed in 2008. My personal and professional opinion is that neither HOA or the management company should accept deed-backs unless they know where they can find a new owner will to pay the current years maintenance fee and continue on. Too many resorts/HOA/management companies do not understand that while they may be making a friend by accepting deed-backs that are slowly burying the rest of the owners. This practice must stop before the many of the owner left to pay where the others bailed out want out also. The rent derived by the deed-backs never seems to cover the MF; no one gives back a peak summer or ski week. I sincerely believe the resort must improve communications with their owners, help to educate them to the many new options available, offer to the owners possible maintenance payment plans and to inform the owners as to new trades companies that would are available to them now. Many owners have enjoyed the benefits of their timeshare for many years and now is the time they must stay together until new avenues come along. If the resort are not in contact with their members the post card companies will be. There are new legal legit way to use and or donated the usage.
Concerning free reign and use of HOA owned weeks is crazy. Whomever is the legal owner is responsible for the dues. There has always been a fight with the developers on whether or not they should be paying dues on unsold week. In the case of most independent resorts the developers have left the sale arena and turned over the ownership of the unsold inventory to the
HOA,s. It is up to the HOA's to make smart decisions now.
Just my opinion.
Regards,
Scott Riddle

ampaholic · Oct 24, 2011

Brerrabbit said:
I think if I ever buy another timeshare, it will be only on the condition, written into the contract, that if the maintenance fees are raised for any reason, that I have the option to sell the timeshare back to the timeshare company for the full purchase price that I paid for it.

Also before you accept another paycheck you should get it in writing that your boss will cover any loss of purchasing power you experience due to inflation - forever. :rofl: Try to get that written into your employment contract.

Brerrabbit said:
Sometimes I think that sooner or later, some bunch of owners at some timeshare are going to get fed up with it, and get together somehow and take over the whole thing, and turn it into condos, and sell them, and split up the money among the owners of the former timeshare weeks.

Many Developers and Management companies have defenses preventing the HOA from taking over and those that don't would still make it expensive.

Also what makes you think the units could be sold as full condos - Your Ouija Board?

Talk about a plank to walk off of ....

timeos2 · Oct 24, 2011

Brerrabbit said:
I think if I ever buy another timeshare, it will be only on the condition, written into the contract, that if the maintenance fees are raised for any reason, that I have the option to sell the timeshare back to the timeshare company for the full purchase price that I paid for it.

Sometimes I think that sooner or later, some bunch of owners at some timeshare are going to get fed up with it, and get together somehow and take over the whole thing, and turn it into condos, and sell them, and split up the money among the owners of the former timeshare weeks.

As Ron says - good luck. That just isn't the way any timeshare (or most condo's) are set up to operate. Nor do you as a buyer/owner have any rights to change the sales agreement - that is set in stone by what the developer files and gains State approval for. After that only a super majority of owners (or the Developer while they still hold the majority of ownership and with required State approval) can alter those rules of ownership. It is what your deeded rights are and that is VERY hard to alter once accepted. Not to mention your plan wouldn't fit within any shared ownership agreement I've ever seen or heard of. It isn't a viable plan. You are best off not even considering buying into any common ownership if you can't stand to have your ownership right abridged for the good of the whole.

jghall · Oct 25, 2011

FYI

FYI- All cash deeds in the state of Texas will reflect the term "$10 and other valuable consideration" regardless whether the property sold for $10000 or $10,000,000 so without direct information it is not possible to find out sales prices in our state.

ronparise · Oct 25, 2011

Scott Riddle said:
.........My personal and professional opinion is that neither HOA or the management company should accept deed-backs unless they know where they can find a new owner will to pay the current years maintenance fee and continue on. Too many resorts/HOA/management companies do not understand that while they may be making a friend by accepting deed-backs that are slowly burying the rest of the owners. This practice must stop before the many of the owner left to pay where the others bailed out want out also. ................
Regards,
Scott Riddle

My personal opinion is that we should have world peace and that no person should so to bed hungry. Unfortunately the world I find myself in is quite a different place than the one I would design if I was in charge

You may want a resort where every owner is able to and is in fact eagar to pay their annual fees, but the fact is that this is not always the case. In the case of a non productive week, I would prefer that it be in the control of the board rather than in the hands of a non paying un cooperative owner.....

That means an agressive collection policy, but when the choice comes between foreclosure or accepting a deed in lieu...Id opt for the deed in lieu every time

timeos2 · Oct 25, 2011

Scott Riddle said:
I was a guest speaker at the Timeshare Board Members Association in Scottsdale AZ last week. TBMA, www.tbmassoc.com, a non-profit group that help T/S resorts that are controlled by its owners to share resources. There was good mix of resort Board Members from Ma to VT to MT to CA, 35+. One of the main concerns of the independent resorts was the maintenance fees delinquencies and the deed-backs. I have been involved with timeshare since 1981 and I sit on the Board of Directors at my own resort. Previously to 2007 deed-back and returned weeks to the HOA were not an issue as there was always a new owner to be found for a price. The T/S world changed in 2008. My personal and professional opinion is that neither HOA or the management company should accept deed-backs unless they know where they can find a new owner will to pay the current years maintenance fee and continue on. Too many resorts/HOA/management companies do not understand that while they may be making a friend by accepting deed-backs that are slowly burying the rest of the owners. This practice must stop before the many of the owner left to pay where the others bailed out want out also. The rent derived by the deed-backs never seems to cover the MF; no one gives back a peak summer or ski week. I sincerely believe the resort must improve communications with their owners, help to educate them to the many new options available, offer to the owners possible maintenance payment plans and to inform the owners as to new trades companies that would are available to them now. Many owners have enjoyed the benefits of their timeshare for many years and now is the time they must stay together until new avenues come along. If the resort are not in contact with their members the post card companies will be. There are new legal legit way to use and or donated the usage.
Concerning free reign and use of HOA owned weeks is crazy. Whomever is the legal owner is responsible for the dues. There has always been a fight with the developers on whether or not they should be paying dues on unsold week. In the case of most independent resorts the developers have left the sale arena and turned over the ownership of the unsold inventory to the
HOA,s. It is up to the HOA's to make smart decisions now.
Just my opinion.
Regards,
Scott Riddle

Ron - In case you haven't seen this excellent post on why it would be suicide in most resorts to simply say "we'll take back all comers" without a serious and workable plan to move those weeks to a new, paying owner. This applies despite the "need" to take them back - the need is to prevent the other, paying owner from defecting or giving them an incentive to turn in weeks. If that means strict & aggressive collections from all then so be it. The worry is the paying owners and keeping them happy - not the few that want out the easy way from what thy committed to. Work with them - absolutely. Find options & paths for resale - of course. Flat out say we'll take it back no matter what? You'd better bail now because that is an Association doomed in the long run.

It is a balance and it can't be 100% either way too strict or too easy.

sfwilshire · Oct 25, 2011

Brerrabbit said:
I think if I ever buy another timeshare, it will be only on the condition, written into the contract, that if the maintenance fees are raised for any reason, that I have the option to sell the timeshare back to the timeshare company for the full purchase price that I paid for it.

A contract that prevents any increase in maintenance fees sounds like the worst idea ever. They would either have to be crazy high to start out with, or the resort would go to crap without reasonable annual increases. Just like for your personal residence, costs increase constantly for everything involved. Electric, gas, employees, health insurance. Have any of your personal costs gone down in the last 20 years?

If the only thing limited was increases in maintenance fees, you would get constant special assessments just to keep the doors open.

Some sort of reasonable limit to increases, maybe tied to the rate of inflation, might work and protect the owners.

Sheila

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