"Fair" distribution of check-in days

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

Unless there's an error with the Inventory Calendars page (requires log-in, don't know if it requires enrollment to view) for Enrolled/Points Owners, I think I've found where it's possible that an unfair distribution of check-in days could be more in favor of Weeks Owners than Points Owners. (Or maybe I don't know what I'm doing still, which is a distinct possibility.

)

I'm playing around with a check-in of Saturday, 6/9/12 at a few different resorts and noticed it, so I checked SurfWatch where I know the Weeks calendar has Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins.

For a 6/9/12 check-in with Weeks you'd call in on 5/8/11 using the 13-mo mark or 6/8/11 using the 12-mo mark. But with this "Inventory Calendars" link the call-in date for any of those Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins using Points is 5/10/11. That advantage seems to happen across the board with Weeks reservations having 1,2 or 3 days lead time with any Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon check-in for any 7-day stay. But because you can check in any day with Points, if you check in on the Tueday preceding the weekend you want to stay then Points will have the advantage.

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned somewhere in all these threads but I couldn't find it. It's worth mentioning in detail IMO to prove that if Marriott doesn't allocate inventory across check-in days AND according to the percentages of Weeks/Points, it's as much possible for Weeks owners to have the advantage for Points owners (especially if Points owners want to reserve a week as it falls on the Weeks calendars.)

Does anyone else see what I'm seeing here?

(PS - One of my favorite links pre this rollout was the "Explore Our Resorts" page that didn't require log-in and gave us access to the "Resort Calendar" and "Owners" links for each resort. Now the link I was using redirects to this and clicking on "Explore Our Resorts" is all different. Does anybody know what I'm talking about here, or know how to get to that info without logging in to the my-vacationclub.com new pages?)

DanCali · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
Unless there's an error with the Inventory Calendars page (requires log-in, don't know if it requires enrollment to view) for Enrolled/Points Owners, I think I've found where it's possible that an unfair distribution of check-in days could be more in favor of Weeks Owners than Points Owners. (Or maybe I don't know what I'm doing still, which is a distinct possibility. )

I'm playing around with a check-in of Saturday, 6/9/12 at a few different resorts and noticed it, so I checked SurfWatch where I know the Weeks calendar has Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins.

For a 6/9/12 check-in with Weeks you'd call in on 5/8/11 using the 13-mo mark or 6/8/11 using the 12-mo mark. But with this "Inventory Calendars" link the call-in date for any of those Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins using Points is 5/10/11. That advantage seems to happen across the board with Weeks reservations having 1,2 or 3 days lead time with any Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon check-in for any 7-day stay. But because you can check in any day with Points, if you check in on the Tueday preceding the weekend you want to stay then Points will have the advantage.

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned somewhere in all these threads but I couldn't find it. It's worth mentioning in detail IMO to prove that if Marriott doesn't allocate inventory across check-in days AND according to the percentages of Weeks/Points, it's as much possible for Weeks owners to have the advantage for Points owners (especially if Points owners want to reserve a week as it falls on the Weeks calendars.)

Does anyone else see what I'm seeing here?

(PS - One of my favorite links pre this rollout was the "Explore Our Resorts" page that didn't require log-in and gave us access to the "Resort Calendar" and "Owners" links for each resort. Now the link I was using redirects to this and clicking on "Explore Our Resorts" is all different. Does anybody know what I'm talking about here, or know how to get to that info without logging in to the my-vacationclub.com new pages?)

This doesn't happen for 2011 reservations though, does it?

I believe you are seeing this problem because 2012 is a leap year. Yes, it can be fairly solved using pro-rata allocation. However, it can also be solved by changing the call-in day for points owners every year. "The documents clearly stipulate" that call in date can be changed.

You know where I stand on the pro-rata issue...

hipslo · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
Unless there's an error with the Inventory Calendars page (requires log-in, don't know if it requires enrollment to view) for Enrolled/Points Owners, I think I've found where it's possible that an unfair distribution of check-in days could be more in favor of Weeks Owners than Points Owners. (Or maybe I don't know what I'm doing still, which is a distinct possibility. )

I'm playing around with a check-in of Saturday, 6/9/12 at a few different resorts and noticed it, so I checked SurfWatch where I know the Weeks calendar has Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins.

For a 6/9/12 check-in with Weeks you'd call in on 5/8/11 using the 13-mo mark or 6/8/11 using the 12-mo mark. But with this "Inventory Calendars" link the call-in date for any of those Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins using Points is 5/10/11. That advantage seems to happen across the board with Weeks reservations having 1,2 or 3 days lead time with any Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon check-in for any 7-day stay. But because you can check in any day with Points, if you check in on the Tueday preceding the weekend you want to stay then Points will have the advantage.

I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned somewhere in all these threads but I couldn't find it. It's worth mentioning in detail IMO to prove that if Marriott doesn't allocate inventory across check-in days AND according to the percentages of Weeks/Points, it's as much possible for Weeks owners to have the advantage for Points owners (especially if Points owners want to reserve a week as it falls on the Weeks calendars.)

Does anyone else see what I'm seeing here?

(PS - One of my favorite links pre this rollout was the "Explore Our Resorts" page that didn't require log-in and gave us access to the "Resort Calendar" and "Owners" links for each resort. Now the link I was using redirects to this and clicking on "Explore Our Resorts" is all different. Does anybody know what I'm talking about here, or know how to get to that info without logging in to the my-vacationclub.com new pages?)

I have noticed this as well, and have posted about it (somewhere). However, what I suspect is that there is never a true "head to head" competition between weeks owners and points owenrs, for that very reason. If there were, the call in days should be the same. So, it seems likely to me that marriott will allocate inventory between the two pools in some (unknown) manner, and then the day for points owners to call in is simply the day on which the already allocated inventory will first be made available to points owners.

That's my theory, anyway.

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

DanCali said:
This doesn't happen for 2011 reservations though, does it?

I believe you are seeing this problem because 2012 is a leap year. Yes, it can be fairly solved using pro-rata allocation. However, it can also be solved by changing the call-in day for points owners every year. "The documents clearly stipulate" that call in date can be changed.

You know where I stand on the pro-rata issue...

Actually, Dan, we stand on the same side of the pro-rata issue - I want a fair distribution just the same way you do, no matter which or if either group of owners gets an advantage.

It does happen with 2011 weeks, yes - generally, with 2011 Saturday check-ins, the lead time for Weeks owners over Points owners to call in is 1 day. With 2012 it's 2 days.

Again, I could be doing something completely wrong here, or missing something that's right in front of my face. That's why I posted - for help!

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

hipslo said:
I have noticed this as well, and have posted about it (somewhere). However, what I suspect is that there is never a true "head to head" competition between weeks owners and points owenrs, for that very reason. If there were, the call in days should be the same. So, it seems likely to me that marriott will allocate inventory between the two pools in some (unknown) manner, and then the day for points owners to call in is simply the day on which the already allocated inventory will first be made available to points owners.

That's my theory, anyway.

I knew I'd seen it somewhere before and now I know it was you! I like your theory, hope it's practiced.

hipslo · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
I knew I'd seen it somewhere before and now I know it was you! I like your theory, hope it's practiced.

It seems like its impossible to know whether the theory would be good or bad for weeks or points without knowing exactly how the inventory is allocated, though.

DanCali · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
Actually, Dan, we stand on the same side of the pro-rata issue - I want a fair distribution just the same way you do, no matter which or if either group of owners gets an advantage.

It does happen with 2011 weeks, yes - generally, with 2011 Saturday check-ins, the lead time for Weeks owners over Points owners to call in is 1 day. With 2012 it's 2 days.

Again, I could be doing something completely wrong here, or missing something that's right in front of my face. That's why I posted - for help!

I did not see this for 2011. Eg for a July 23, 2011 checkin you needed to call on June 22, a Tuesday.

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

DanCali said:
I did not see this for 2011. Eg for a July 23, 2011 checkin you needed to call on June 22, a Tuesday.

Hmmm. All of July, 2011 works that way - Weeks and Points Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins work out to the same 13-mo and 12-mo call-in days. But the June dates I was checking didn't work that way, and same for August, 2011 - the 13-mo call-in for Sat, 8/6/11 check-in is 7/5/11, but the Points call-in for that check-in is 7/6/10. Same for September, 2011 with Saturday check-ins, Weeks owners call in one day in advance.

Does this have something to do with July, 2011 inventory not being available through Points reservations yet? (7/26/10 is the day you can begin reserving with Points.)

(GRRRRR!!!! I WISH they would fix whatever the problem is with Safari! I can't get used to Firefox, don't WANT to have to change browsers, but this way I'm bouncing back and forth and don't like it!)

Brenda · Jul 2, 2010

My understanding is that there are 2 different pool that come from 2 different sources. The points pool is sourced by
1) Marriott owned weeks (including foreclosures and unsold)
2) Weeks obtain by trades to Marriott Reward points
3) weeks redeemed by owners for vacation points
4) weeks obtained from the corp II account.

The weeks pool is sourced by weeks not in the point system.
Week owners are not competing from the same pool as point or enrolled
owners using points to reserve.

DanCali · Jul 2, 2010

Brenda said:
My understanding is that there are 2 different pool that come from 2 different sources. The points pool is sourced by
1) Marriott owned weeks (including foreclosures and unsold)
2) Weeks obtain by trades to Marriott Reward points
3) weeks redeemed by owners for vacation points
4) weeks obtained from the corp II account.

The weeks pool is sourced by weeks not in the point system.
Week owners are not competing from the same pool as point or enrolled
owners using points to reserve.

This is not the exactly issue we are taking about.

We all agree that if 30% of Platinum owners enroll in points, they get 30% of the weeks in that season for points inventory. The question is which weeks? Can they book any weeks in the season, until they hit 30% (in an extreme case this could enable points owners to get all the prime summer weeks at NCV for example leaving the fall weeks to weeks owners) or do they get up to 30% of each week in the season (more accurately or each checkin day in the season)?

Small distinction, but makes a big difference. Marriott has been less than forthcoming on this issue.

BocaBum99 · Jul 2, 2010

Brenda said:
My understanding is that there are 2 different pool that come from 2 different sources. The points pool is sourced by
1) Marriott owned weeks (including foreclosures and unsold)
2) Weeks obtain by trades to Marriott Reward points
3) weeks redeemed by owners for vacation points
4) weeks obtained from the corp II account.

The weeks pool is sourced by weeks not in the point system.
Week owners are not competing from the same pool as point or enrolled
owners using points to reserve.

I agree that the only way Marriott can manage this program is with separate inventory pools.

BocaBum99 · Jul 2, 2010

DanCali said:
This is not the exactly issue we are taking about.

We all agree that if 30% of Platinum owners enroll in points, they get 30% of the weeks in that season for points inventory. The question is which weeks? Can they book any weeks in the season, until they hit 30% (in an extreme case this could enable points owners to get all the prime summer weeks at NCV for example leaving the fall weeks to weeks owners) or do they get up to 30% of each week in the season (more accurately or each checkin day in the season)?

Small distinction, but makes a big difference. Marriott has been less than forthcoming on this issue.

There is no doubt in my mind that it will be labelled as fair and equal with one party being mor equal than everyone else.

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

BocaBum99 said:
There is no doubt in my mind that it will be labelled as fair and equal with one party being mor equal than everyone else.

But which party? The thing I'm seeing with reservation call-in dates appears to give the definite advantage to Weeks owners a majority of the time when Points owners are looking to reserve the check-in days as they exist on the Weeks calendars. I'm not seeing an advantage here for Points owners, unless they change their traditional usage pattern to check in on Tuesdays.

hipslo · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
But which party? The thing I'm seeing with reservation call-in dates appears to give the definite advantage to Weeks owners a majority of the time when Points owners are looking to reserve the check-in days as they exist on the Weeks calendars. I'm not seeing an advantage here for Points owners, unless they change their traditional usage pattern to check in on Tuesdays.

If marriott allocates to each pool separately it wouldnt matter when folks call in, and the window wouldnt need to open on the same day, because they'd be competing for separate pools.

The key question remains, how would the allocation between pools be made.

BocaBum99 · Jul 2, 2010

DanCali said:
This is not the exactly issue we are taking about.

We all agree that if 30% of Platinum owners enroll in points, they get 30% of the weeks in that season for points inventory. The question is which weeks? Can they book any weeks in the season, until they hit 30% (in an extreme case this could enable points owners to get all the prime summer weeks at NCV for example leaving the fall weeks to weeks owners) or do they get up to 30% of each week in the season (more accurately or each checkin day in the season)?

Small distinction, but makes a big difference. Marriott has been less than forthcoming on this issue.

There is no doubt in my mind that it will be labelled as fair and equal with one party being mor equal than everyone else.

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

hipslo said:
If marriott allocates to each pool separately it wouldnt matter when folks call in, and the window wouldnt need to open on the same day, because they'd be competing for separate pools.

The key question remains, how would the allocation between pools be made.

Honest, I've begun typing four different responses here and none of my thoughts are fleshing out to where they make any sense. This is too much WORK!

Did you at least reach the same conclusion I did, that anything other than a per check-in day basis can be as unfair to Points owners as Weeks owners (and in some cases more?)

sdtugger · Jul 2, 2010

I asked this question from a Marriott advisor who gave me her opinion and then reconfirmed it (at my urging) with a supervisor. I then called the next day and received the same answer.

The system is designed for the points owners to reserve AFTER the weeks owners. Weeks owners reserve 12 or 13 months before the first available day to reserve of the week they wish to reserve. The points owners reserve the following Tuesday. Is that what you are seeing? When you look at the underlying documents, it does say Tuesday for the 13 month reservations.

All advisors also said that it doesn't really matter because the inventory will be separate. They all stated that the only way a points owner could reserve a Maui Ocean Club week at 13 months is if Marriott owned the week (very few) or if a weeks owner deposited the week into points/II. In other words, they said that a weeks owner won't have any trouble reserving a week. Oh, and they also said that the points owner weeks would be pro rata per week.

DanCali · Jul 2, 2010

sdtugger said:
Oh, and they also said that the points owner weeks would be pro rata per week.

Great - now they need to put that in the documents and maybe I'll believe them...

m61376 · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
Honest, I've begun typing four different responses here and none of my thoughts are fleshing out to where they make any sense. This is too much WORK!

Did you at least reach the same conclusion I did, that anything other than a per check-in day basis can be as unfair to Points owners as Weeks owners (and in some cases more?)

Kudos to Hipslo (who had stated this several times before, but did not spell it out as clearly) and to you for making it so understandable!

You underscore the importance of dividing each pool at least on an equal basis per week for it to be fair across the board. Logistically being able to divide the point pool per check-in day may be a nightmare and may lead to too much breakage, because while week owners can only reserve 7 days, point owners have unlimited flexibility.

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

So now I'm thinking that Marriott could actually take reservations on a basis that doesn't allocate inventory on a per week or per Points/Weeks basis, because the only thing this basis guarantees (from all appearances) is weeks inventory for Weeks owners who call in 1-2-3 days prior to Points owners for the same interval. IOW, when the Weeks window opens Marriott will have to verify that Weeks inventory is available. But once the Points window opens, any owner who is eligible for that window could make a reservation.

It's another conspiracy theory, I know, but isn't it proof that there isn't enough info in writing anywhere to hold Marriott to a "fair" inventory allocation?

sparty · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
Hmmm. All of July, 2011 works that way - Weeks and Points Fri-Sat-Sun check-ins work out to the same 13-mo and 12-mo call-in days. But the June dates I was checking didn't work that way, and same for August, 2011 - the 13-mo call-in for Sat, 8/6/11 check-in is 7/5/11, but the Points call-in for that check-in is 7/6/10. Same for September, 2011 with Saturday check-ins, Weeks owners call in one day in advance.

Does this have something to do with July, 2011 inventory not being available through Points reservations yet? (7/26/10 is the day you can begin reserving with Points.)

(GRRRRR!!!! I WISH they would fix whatever the problem is with Safari! I can't get used to Firefox, don't WANT to have to change browsers, but this way I'm bouncing back and forth and don't like it!)

Just curious - you think there is a very good chance there will be no availability for a 8/6/11 check-in at SurfWatch if you call in 7/6/2010 instead of 7/5/2010?

hipslo · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
Did you at least reach the same conclusion I did, that anything other than a per check-in day basis can be as unfair to Points owners as Weeks owners (and in some cases more?)

Again, I think it all depends on how the allocation is done. If a disproportionate number of "prime" weeks are allocated to the "weeks" pool, then yes. Though I don't see why it would be done that way, as that would actively undermine the success of the new program.

m61376 · Jul 2, 2010

Since the weeks pool has always been equally subdivided, it is logical that they would continue to equally subdivide it. The way the reservations are laid out ensures that point owners wouldn't be competing with weeks owners for those premium weeks if Marriott did not equally apportion available point reservations across the season, which was a big concern to many people.

Having different call in days makes a lot of sense for work distribution and access to the reservation personnel.

SueDonJ · Jul 2, 2010

sparty said:
Just curious - you think there is a very good chance there will be no availability for a 8/6/11 check-in at SurfWatch if you call in 7/6/2010 instead of 7/5/2010?

Oh. I have no idea what the availability might be for that one week, just used it as an example to show what I was seeing. That old mindset of "you MUST call in at the first possible moment to increase your chances ..." is tough to ignore, even if I'm thinking about offseason or non-holidays periods. I know, it doesn't sound rational, does it?

sparty · Jul 2, 2010

SueDonJ said:
Oh. I have no idea what the availability might be for that one week, just used it as an example to show what I was seeing. That old mindset of "you MUST call in at the first possible moment to increase your chances ..." is tough to ignore, even if I'm thinking about offseason or non-holidays periods. I know, it doesn't sound rational, does it?

Actually I am not sure.. Was wondering if people expect having going to the extremes in order to really get the check-in/weeks they want...

I know when Barony was brand new I was calling in the very first minute I could.. However recent years I have not been as aggressive..

Maybe it will change.. That would be extremely disappointing if 1 day made a difference when booking 13 months in advance.. But who knows?

"Fair" distribution of check-in days

SueDonJ

DanCali

hipslo

SueDonJ

SueDonJ

hipslo

DanCali

SueDonJ

Brenda

DanCali

BocaBum99

BocaBum99

SueDonJ

hipslo

BocaBum99

SueDonJ

sdtugger

DanCali

m61376

Tug Review Crew

SueDonJ

sparty

hipslo

m61376

Tug Review Crew

SueDonJ

sparty