[2009] Hyatt Highlands Inn Point Allocation Change! Increase for All Units

jkc22 · Nov 20, 2009

Well, I got a mail in the letter about Highlands Inn points allocation change. It's generally good for owners, but bad news for others trying to get in.

A Special Announcement for Highlands Inn Members

I know you appreciate the value of Highlands Inn, a Hyatt Vacation Club from the interiors, to the impeccable service and spectacular views. As time passes, the demand versus the supply for this prestigious property continues to increase.

The Hyatt Vacation Club Rules and Regulations provide for periodic demand analysis of all destinations. After careful consideration, the determination was made to modify the point values of one and two bedroom units according to the high demand for the property. Two new unit type designations have been established. One-bedroom units will now be categorized, as One Bedroom Premiere and Two Bedroom units will now be referred to as Two Bedroom Deluxe. This creates more travel options for you at no additional cost.

2009 Point Value
1 Bedroom - Gold 1,240; Platinum 1,320; Diamond 1,450
2 Bedroom - Gold 1,880; Platinum 2,000; Diamond 2,200

2010 Point Value
1 Bedroom Premiere - Gold 1,880; Platinum 2,000; Diamond 2,200
2 Bedroom Deluxe - Gold 2,520; Platinum 2,680; Diamond 2,950

The new point values are exclusive to the Highlands Inn, a Hyatt Vacation Club and will take effect week 1 of 2010 (January 2, 2010).

As far as I can understand, basically the points allocation/requirement for the Highlands Inn units increased - one bedroom to the equivalent of regular two bedroom point requirement; two bedroom to the equivalent of regular three bedroom point requirements........

Owners get the equivalent of a free week of studio points per year!

Seems like Hyatt really wants to keep this property difficult for others to get in - maybe because of the abundance of float points that it sells as part of the Residence Club??

Another note - I was given AMAZING offers while at Breck last week, almost tempted to buy a Platinum 3-Bedroom week from the developer!! With this change, it seems very unlikely that I will be buying.....

Carmel85 · Nov 21, 2009

jkc22 said:
Well, I got a mail in the letter about Highlands Inn points allocation change. It's generally good for owners, but bad news for others trying to get in.

As far as I can understand, basically the points allocation/requirement for the Highlands Inn units increased - one bedroom to the equivalent of regular two bedroom point requirement; two bedroom to the equivalent of regular three bedroom point requirements........

Owners get the equivalent of a free week of studio points per year!

Seems like Hyatt really wants to keep this property difficult for others to get in - maybe because of the abundance of float points that it sells as part of the Residence Club??

Another note - I was given AMAZING offers while at Breck last week, almost tempted to buy a Platinum 3-Bedroom week from the developer!! With this change, it seems very unlikely that I will be buying.....

THANK YOU for the information.. :clap:

I have passes you post on to one of the members of the Hyatt Lake Tahoe Board members.

This is HUGE news something Hyatt,Marriott and other timeshare owners should see how a company like Hyatt can do what they want to do whenever they wish for the good or the bad but always for management Hyatt,Marriott or II etc and not really the owners.

51% increase in points due to HIGH DEMAND!!!! I know Lake Tahoe sometimes of the year are in HIGH DEMAND also so why shouldnt those owners get it also?

HIGH DEMAND what a lame excuse by HYATT.

I think Hyatt is going to shoot themselves in the foot for this one.
Thank you
C85

tahoeJoe · Nov 22, 2009

Class Action Suit?

This is wrong, illegal, and all Hyatt owners need to fight this.

- TJ

Ken555 · Nov 22, 2009

So... seems this resort just got more valuable on the resale market. I suppose this should be the one to buy now, esp if interested in trading within Hyatt.

Divot · Nov 22, 2009

So Much for "Points are Points"

Good for Hyatt and the buyers that purchased in Carmel.

For the Sedona or San Antonio points buyers, it looks like you really should own where you want to vacation. Don't forget about the new mid-week & weekend point charts, or the new II exchange requirements or, the folks who bought the EOY's in Carmel. How about getting in on an II exchange - I don't think it will happen... I for one, look forward to see how this affects future HI purchases. Remember, its all about boutique locations and the brand. Carmel has both. I guess (according to Hyatt) the high HI maintenance fees can now be justified with this announcement. This strategy came right out of the Cornell School of Hospitality Management playbook. At least Hyatt's not giving up. Lets see what this does to Hyatt's stock price

heathpack · Nov 23, 2009

Divot said:
Don't forget about the new mid-week & weekend point charts, or the new II exchange requirements or, the folks who bought the EOY's in Carmel.

What new mid-week & weekend points charts?

What new II exchange requirements?

I totally agree with the sentiment in TahoeJoe's post, but does anyone know if this move actually IS illegal? It never occured to me that it would be possible for Hyatt to create more points out of thin air. By building new properties, yes-- but just deciding- poof, owners at property A are assigned more points? Pretty outrageous.

H

Carmel85 · Nov 23, 2009

Again I ask are there any great lawyers out here on TUG or and TUG members that know a great lawyer that wants to take on Hyatt and thier new president Ed Crovo?

I agree this is a outrage but we all can talk, we need a great lawyer that can get in court and fight.

I know the board up at the Hyatt Tahoe have been informed by all of us on TUG but what about the other Hyatt resorts that Hyatt does not control thier board like Sunset Harbor?

What Hyatt timeshares have owner boards besides the super strong Hyatt Tahoe Board?

I eve heard at the last annual meeting in Tahoe Mr. Crovo (Hyatt timeshares new President) was there and so was a full on court reported taking down everything.

At least the Hyatt Tahoe board fights back but we need all owners not to just write on TUG but write can call Hyatt 1-800-340-9997 as for Ed Crovo tell him what is wrong and contact your Hyatt Boards.

What Hyatt did here in Carmel is just the first of many steps what Hyatt can and will do to all of us if they can get away with it.

:cheer:

We need to stand up and call. I would even encourage all Marriott,Hilton,Starwood, etc. to call the Hyatt and complain 1 phone call times all of us here on TUG can and will make a difference 1-800-340-9997 Ed Crovo. :cheer:

ScoopKona · Nov 23, 2009

I certainly wish luck to anyone who cares to hire counsel and fight this.

I also think doing so will be a waste of money. Hyatt is nothing if not conservative -- this change has been studied to death, run through a battery of in-house attorneys, restudied, and studied some more.

The only advantage I can see is that a lawsuit could be heard in California. Owners would have a fighting chance there. If the suit is forced to be heard in St. Petersburg, I would give up. Florida loves their corporations.

This is hardly the first time. Hyatt has conjured Diamond Season out of thin air, bumped Copper owners to Bronze in Key West, and has generally monkeyed with the points as they see fit.

This is the reason I have ALWAYS suggested that people buy something at a resort they wouldn't mind using, at a time of year they wouldn't mind traveling.

I'd bet my 2010 points that this is a litmus test for Hyatt. If it's successful, skiiers are going to be shopping for resale points to account for what Hyatt is about to do with all the Colorado ski weeks. Wyndham opened the gates with the "increase point values to drive more sales" model. And Hyatt obviously thinks this will work for them, too. (HVC has never been an innovator. They let the competition make changes, then copy things that work.)

PS -- I've met Ed Crovo. He seems like a nice guy. But he's a company man. He's going to do what's right for the Pritzkers.

ScoopKona · Nov 23, 2009

Divot said:
Lets see what this does to Hyatt's stock price

Hyatt is not publicly traded. It is owned wholly by the Pritzker family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pritzker_family

heathpack · Nov 23, 2009

ScoopLV said:
This is hardly the first time. Hyatt has conjured Diamond Season out of thin air, bumped Copper owners to Bronze in Key West, and has generally monkeyed with the points as they see fit.

This is the reason I have ALWAYS suggested that people buy something at a resort they wouldn't mind using, at a time of year they wouldn't mind traveling.

When did the diamond conjuring take place? How about the alchemical change from copper to bronze?

I'm pretty new to the Hyatt system, but part of the appeal of HVC is the points aspect. Fortunately we did buy a location/season that we can use so in a pinch that's what we'll do. But we would not have purchased had it been likely this would be our main option.

I've looked at the HVC purchase as an agreement between myself and Hyatt-- I'll pay a chunk of cash now to fix a portion of my travel expenses in the future. The original investment is a fixed cost and the annual costs are non-fixed, subject to changes with inflation or other factors I can't control.

Now, however, I understand that my initial fixed cost is not so fixed. If HVC decides to increase points values at all resorts except mine, my points become devalued and my initial purchase buys less. So HVC has essentially figured out a way to make BOTH my initial investment and annual fees subject to inflation. And this runs counter to the basic deal as I understood it.

I would personally not be so much the "let's sue the guys" type. But I would be the type to cut my losses and sell my HVC if this type of monkey business continues and escalates. I'd just spend my on-going vacation dollars somewhere else. Yes, HVC will come out ahead, I'm sure-- at least in the short term. But if they make decisions that undermine the premise of a timeshare purchase-- ie fixing part of the cost of future vacations-- they hurt their own business model in the long run, don't they?

So we will see how HVC evolves over the next few years and what our response will be vis a vis our ownership.

H

heathpack · Nov 23, 2009

ScoopLV said:
Hyatt is not publicly traded. It is owned wholly by the Pritzker family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pritzker_family

I believe Hyatt just went public in the last few weeks.

H

jbercu · Nov 23, 2009

I agree! Hyatt should not be able to create more points out of thin air. The points should be taken out of other Hyatt resorts!

But seriously, there are some problems that this adjustment fixes.

1) Because of the high dues at Highlands Inn it is hard for Hyatt to sell remaining inventory and turn the resort over to an independent Board. This will help sales.
2) There has been a well known movement to treat Hyatt is a points club, where you buy the points at the lowest ratio of dues to points and then exchange into the best available properties regardless of dues. The reason the club is specific unit and specific week, is so that owners will use their purchased weeks, and as a benefit be able to exchange. This creates a club where the owners are more involved in the resorts they own and this creates a better club. This adjustment will help this problem.
3) It may help club availability at Highlands Inn.
4) E-Bay sales of Hyatt are lower now, so it is not as hard to get additional points. Instead of Hyatt exercising ROFR, maybe they can influence the market this way.

I am an owner at Highlands Inn and also at High Sierra. We always use Highlands Inn and High Sierra so this change makes no difference to us. If we bought a unit for points, it would probably be Sedona.
I recommend buying more points or a resale unit at the Highlands Inn on EBay or other reputable resale outlet. This may cost less than a lawyer.

ScoopKona · Nov 23, 2009

jbercu said:
I recommend buying more points or a resale unit at the Highlands Inn on EBay or other reputable resale outlet. This may cost less than a lawyer.

This is exactly what HVC hopes to accomplish, I think.

Eventually, one of the big hotel chain timeshare companies is going to find a way to mitigate the effect of the resale market on developer sales. Once that particular genie out of the bottle, there will be no turning back. Every timeshare company will follow suit. Hyatt included.

Remember, these companies are not in business to provide us with vacations. These companies are in business to sell condos. When given a choice of increasing sales vs. keeping the user base happy, they will generally go for the former. They'll only side with the owners if they feel the opportunity cost tarnishes the brand to the point where sales will decline.

The only people who are in any position to call Hyatt and complain (effectively) are Lifetime Diamond Hyatt Gold Passport members. This is the market segment that Hyatt listens to. If Lifetime Diamond holders who are also HVC members feel unfairly treated, Hyatt will pay attention. The rest of us, not so much.

heathpack · Nov 23, 2009

ScoopLV said:
When given a choice of increasing sales vs. keeping the user base happy, they will generally go for the former. They'll only side with the owners if they feel the opportunity cost tarnishes the brand to the point where sales will decline.

Very interesting. It seems that in particular companies that sell timeshares should be careful about reputation because the whole industry is increasingly viewed with skepticism. For us, the general happiness of the user base was a big part of what led us to purchase both Hyatt and Disney. So user happiness does drive some percentage of sales.

I am a little afraid that now that Hyatt is publically traded, the desire for short-term profits will become the primary consideration. Big picture issues like the long-term viability of the business model may become unimportant.

Such is life, I suppose.

H

jkc22 · Nov 23, 2009

heathpack said:
When did the diamond conjuring take place? How about the alchemical change from copper to bronze?

I'm pretty new to the Hyatt system, but part of the appeal of HVC is the points aspect. Fortunately we did buy a location/season that we can use so in a pinch that's what we'll do. But we would not have purchased had it been likely this would be our main option.
...
...if they make decisions that undermine the premise of a timeshare purchase-- ie fixing part of the cost of future vacations ....

H

Not to side with the HVC, but the point you made re: fixing part of the cost of future vacations - in keeping the points constant - only applies to the deeded week that you purchased at your home resort.

The "perk" or privilege of exchanging into other resorts within HVC, although implied at purchase, was never going to be guaranteed. This would apply also when at some day, for example, a resort leaves the HVC system altogether. Then one would lose the ability to exchange into HVC altogether.

As long as your points allocation gets you a week during your deeded week, I don't think HVC did anything to hinder your ability to your enjoyment of future vacations [at your purchased resort], which was what your purchase contract guarantees you.

On the flip side, this is exactly what HVC is doing for Highlands Inn owners - increasing the points allocation to account for the increased level, thereby guaranteeing their future usage of Highalnds [at the increased points levels].

heathpack · Nov 23, 2009

jkc22 said:
Not to side with the HVC, but the point you made re: fixing part of the cost of future vacations - in keeping the points constant - only applies to the deeded week that you purchased at your home resort.

The "perk" or privilege of exchanging into other resorts within HVC, although implied at purchase, was never going to be guaranteed. This would apply also when at some day, for example, a resort leaves the HVC system altogether. Then one would lose the ability to exchange into HVC altogether. [at the increased points levels].

I disagree that I was not sold a points system. And what about the resorts that are now being sold as fixed weeks and floating points? Would you argue that those folks were not sold points explicitly?

H

ScoopKona · Nov 23, 2009

I for one would have preferred they create a "Titanium" season, or "Dilithium" season, or what have you, and then slide weeks upwards as necessary.

Interval's Red, Yellow, Green (Or RCI's Red, White and Blue) are not sufficient to differentiate the demand between say, Key West in July, March, Fantasy Fest and New Year's.

Even the expanded "rainbow of colors" seasons Hyatt maintains does is not specific enough.

Even though they're both Diamond, President's Week is worth more than Christmas Week in Key West, simply due to higher demand. Fantasy Fest is technically silver, but really ought to be gold or platinum.

Season for season, any week in Carmel is going to be more in demand than any week in San Antonio. If Hyatt completely reworks the system to account for that, I'll be disappointed, but it's hard to blame them.

While I nearly always sympathize with the fox, I think it is important to also understand the point of view of the hound.

EDIT:

heathpack said:
I disagree that I was not sold a points system. And what about the resorts that are now being sold as fixed weeks and floating points? Would you argue that those folks were not sold points explicitly?

You were sold a condo. The contract is very clear that anything above and beyond the fixed week at the condo is subject to change. (It's been awhile since I've written a sales contract, but I'm sure it hasn't changed much.) Hyatt is only supposed to change the system to benefit "all the owners." In reality, they can do basically whatever they want and claim it's for the good of the members.

ondeadlin · Nov 23, 2009

The "you were sold a condo and nothing else is guaranteed" retort is technically true and, at the same time, absolutely weak sauce.

There's nothing more valuable to a business than its reputation, and in doing this Hyatt sends a clear signal that will lie to it customers. It doesn't matter if that lie is spelled out in documents or implied by the sales people who tell buyers that a Diamond week in one resort will get you a Diamond week in another. A lie is a lie is a lie.

I've always expected my next purchase to be a Hyatt.

There's no chance of that now. I'm a skier and I'm not purchasing a 2200 point Diamond week only to have the rules change some time in the future.

Anyone who does their research on TUG will quickly come to the same conclusion - they can't trust the system.

And that's a terrible business strategy.

Carmel85 · Nov 23, 2009

ondeadlin said:
The "you were sold a condo and nothing else is guaranteed" retort is technically true and, at the same time, absolutely weak sauce.

There's nothing more valuable to a business than its reputation, and in doing this Hyatt sends a clear signal that will lie to it customers. It doesn't matter if that lie is spelled out in documents or implied by the sales people who tell buyers that a Diamond week in one resort will get you a Diamond week in another. A lie is a lie is a lie.

I've always expected my next purchase to be a Hyatt.

There's no chance of that now. I'm a skier and I'm not purchasing a 2200 point Diamond week only to have the rules change some time in the future.

Anyone who does their research on TUG will quickly come to the same conclusion - they can't trust the system.

And that's a terrible business strategy.

I hear rumors out there Hyatt did this Carmel point increase becaucse the Hyatt Carmel is not even close to being sold out like 65-68% sold. So what Hyatt did was only for Hyatt and not the owners.

:clap:

Im very sad Hyatt did this but again I request we all call and ask for Ed Crovo 1-800-340-9997 and write to you own Board of Directors where you own. :clap:

I know a few letters or emails have gotten to the Hyatt Tahoe board and they need all other Hyatr Boards through out the system to stand up and possible class action suit against Hyatt.

I agree we need to fight back not just here but at all our resort in writting or the board never hears from us.

At least the current Tahoe Board President Steve Dykstra is a tug member and I know 2 other board members read TUG Jack Hoipkins and Steve Dallas.

If you are looking to buy Carmel by now from Hyatt before the price increase.

Please everbody here on TUG call Ed Crovo including Marriott,Hilton,Starwood, Fourseason owners the more we call I feel Hyatt will listen.

C85

ScoopKona · Nov 24, 2009

Carmel85 said:
Please everbody here on TUG call Ed Crovo including Marriott,Hilton,Starwood, Fourseason owners the more we call I feel Hyatt will listen.

I think writing a letter is stronger than calling. And I think Hyatt is going to care more about the high-roller Hyatt Hotel Gold Passport members and the multi-week-developer-purchase HVC members than the people who bought a resale week.

People here are basically dismissed (at the sales side, at least) as people who want to game the system through resales. I don't agree with that, but that was what other salespeople thought when I was working there.

It's also a sure thing that someone from HVC is monitoring this thread. They keep tabs on whats going on here and a few other timeshare owners forums.

I'm also certain that this is only the beginning. Sales figures are likely in the toilet, and management has likely been tasked with rectifying the situation. They're going to do whatever it takes to get back in black. (Short of cutting back on marketing and dropping developer prices, natch.)

Divot · Nov 24, 2009

Hyatt is on the NYSE: Symbol "H"

ScoopLV said:
Hyatt is not publicly traded. It is owned wholly by the Pritzker family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pritzker_family

FYI,

Divot

heathpack · Nov 24, 2009

ScoopLV said:
You were sold a condo. The contract is very clear that anything above and beyond the fixed week at the condo is subject to change. (It's been awhile since I've written a sales contract, but I'm sure it hasn't changed much.) Hyatt is only supposed to change the system to benefit "all the owners." In reality, they can do basically whatever they want and claim it's for the good of the members.

You can say that I was sold a condo, but I will accept this argument the day Hyatt starts selling by saying "you can buy a condo at location X and maybe you will be able to stay at one of our other locations. But then again maybe not." They very much sell access to other resorts through their points system as a major feature of their system.

So HVC can hide behind legal technicalities if they would like, but eventually this strategy will come back to bite them. If they devalue their points system, they devalue their entire timeshare system. People will catch on eventually.

I think your comment about the Hyatt sales team placing no value on the resale owners is amusing in its short-sightedness. A reputation is built by treating all your customers well, not just your most profitable. You may say this type of thinking is pie-in-the-sky, but it is actually just good business sense. Companies that do not understand this will eventually fail.

Hyatt is going to do what Hyatt is going to do and I'm not going to worry too much about it on a personal level. But if they create a poor-value product, I'm out. Then my resale will be out there competing with the developer's prices, no?

H

ScoopKona · Nov 25, 2009

heathpack said:
Hyatt is going to do what Hyatt is going to do and I'm not going to worry too much about it on a personal level. But if they create a poor-value product, I'm out. Then my resale will be out there competing with the developer's prices, no?

H

You're preaching to the choir. I have never said I agree with what's happening, and I don't. But I will try to look at it from Hyatt's perspective as well.

We can rail about it all we want. But we cannot in good conscience simultaneously complain about changes and laud Hyatt for opening swank new resorts. Hyatt (and all the rest of the developers) are in business to make money selling condos. They have to look after their best interest. We have to look after ours. Usually, those interests are mutually exclusive.

I'm affected less than most because I use my week as an II tiger trader. But making some (2 bdrm) Diamond weeks 2200 and other Diamond weeks 2950 is unfair. Patently unfair. That really sticks it to the owner who ponied up for a Diamond thinking he or she would be able to trade it anywhere. I'd prefer seeing a new season, like they did when they created the Diamond week. I think there would be less grumbling. (Still a lot of grumbling, but less than the current scheme.)

But I can see why Hyatt is doing it. It may be good for short-term business. I don't think it will be good long-term business.

PS -- When was Diamond created, anyway? I don't know the answer to that. It was before I started working there. I started right after they bumped Copper owners in Key West to Bronze.

heathpack · Nov 27, 2009

Does anybody have a copy of a Hyatt puchase contract...

...for a property sold in California? I would be interested in reading it and would be fine with blanked out names and dollar amounts. PM me if you would be willing to share this document.

I have been reading a little and have learned that in California, timeshares are regulated by the Department of Real Estate. There are specific laws that pertain to timeshare points and I would bet that the applicability of such laws to Hyatt will depend on how the purchase contract is worded.

If I am going to complain to Hyatt, I would try to educate myself first on the subject.

FYI, I have pasted below what the California DRE says about timeshare points; note in particular the last paragraph which I have bolded. And here is a link to the DRE website if anyone wants to take a peek: http://www.dre.ca.gov/sub_timeshares.html

Whether the sale is a just a timeshare itself or a timeshare plus points system will likely turn out to be the key issue from a legal perspective. I believe this determination would have been made before the project would have been approved in California.

H

From CA DRE website:
Q. - What is a Time-share "Points" Program?

A. - There is another variation of time-share programs that is becoming more popular, especially in time-share plans in which purchasers have the right to reserve occupancy in more than one resort. Rather than the purchasers having the right to reserve a week every year or every other year in a resort, a certain number of "points" are assigned at the time of purchase to each purchaser. Point systems are structures for flexible use whereby the value of the use right of a time-share interest owner is expressed in terms of points rather than in increments of time.

The product sold to a time-share purchaser may consist of a time-share estate or a time-share use, however, the value of reservation rights is entirely a function of the points the purchaser receives at the time of purchase. The number of points conveyed to a purchaser is typically shown in the purchase agreement. In some cases, they may be indicated on the Grant Deed, if the offering is a time-share estate offering. The number of points assigned to a purchaser does not change as long as the purchaser owns the time-share interest or unless he or she purchases additional points.

In a points-based time-share plan, the more points a purchaser buys, the more flexibility he or she has in using the interest. In projects that involve more than one resort, a purchaser with a large number of points will have reservation rights to longer use periods in a wider variety of unit-types during the more popular seasons of the year than a purchaser of a smaller number of points.

Point valuations for each accommodation, season and resort are typically established in the governing documents for the time-share plan. Points-based programs may include the right of the operator of the reservation system for the project to make changes, subject to certain limitations, to point valuations for units in a resort. Such changes may affect the ability of time-share interest owners to reserve occupancy in those accommodations. Developers prefer to include the right to change point valuations in the event that use patterns of accommodations change over time.

However, California law includes some protections regarding the right to change point valuations. First, no change exceeding 10% per year in the manner in which points may be used may be made without the assent of at least 25% of the votes of time-share interest owners, other than the developer. No time-share interest owner may be prevented from using a time-share plan as a result of changes in the way in which point values may be used. In the event of changes in point values, no interest owner shall be prevented from using his or her home resort as provided in the purchase contract that he or she signed for the purchase of the time-share interest.

optimist · Nov 27, 2009

heathpack said:
...
In the event of changes in point values, no interest owner shall be prevented from using his or her home resort as provided in the purchase contract that he or she signed for the purchase of the time-share interest.[/B]

Unless Carmel is your home resort, you don't have a property interest in the Carmel timeshare and therefore do not have standing. For those that do, their interest has NOT been devalued, in fact, their value has increased. You won't see them complaining.
The fact that other members of the HGV were able to use the point system to stay at other properties within HGV is a perk and a marketing tool, not a guaranteed right.

[2009] Hyatt Highlands Inn Point Allocation Change! Increase for All Units

jkc22

Carmel85

tahoeJoe

Ken555

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Divot

heathpack

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Carmel85

ScoopKona

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heathpack

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heathpack

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jbercu

ScoopKona

heathpack

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jkc22

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ondeadlin

Carmel85

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Divot

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optimist