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[merged] NW Pilots missed AP - Hard to believe it happened again after GO

tompalm

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This is really hard to believe that it happened again and occurred more than 24 hours ago. I guess they were able to keep it quiet. The late shows will have new ammo. I am watching Jay Leno tonight. I think that GO was a first, and now again in such a short time, or about one year later. These guys were with a major making the big bucks. It should have never happened.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091023/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown
 

Timeshare Von

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I suppose there will be those here who will swear off DL/NWA now for this . . . if they haven't already for the other service issues they have.
 

sjuhawk_jd

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What is AP and GO

This is really hard to believe that it happened again and occurred more than 24 hours ago. I guess they were able to keep it quiet. The late shows will have new ammo. I am watching Jay Leno tonight. I think that GO was a first, and now again in such a short time, or about one year later. These guys were with a major making the big bucks. It should have never happened.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091023/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown

Obviously you think that the entire community right away knows the meaning of "AP" and "GO". I figured that AP is probably airport, but what is GO.
 
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rickandcindy23

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I think he means Auto Pilot? GO is the airline in Hawaii. Two pilots fell asleep on a GO interisland hop and veered way off course a year ago or so. I cannot remember, but it scared the living daylights out of me when it happened because how can I trust a pilot, when they can party 'til dawn and then fly?
 

Cheryl17

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Go! is an airline that had a similar situation recently.
 

Passepartout

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These guys were with a major making the big bucks. It should have never happened.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091023/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown

The OP was abbreviating 'airport' as AP. More importantly, there seems to be a misconception about aircrew pay. In these days of mergers, layoffs, shortages in aircraft maintenance, extra baggage fees and carry-on sandwiches, don't be too surprised that the folks sitting up front are making less than your neighborhood garbage truck driver. Especially in the small commuter aircraft, pay is under $25k/year, and for the regional jets, $30-35k until they build lots of seniority. Pilot's union is toothless in this business environment.

That these pilots were having a 'heated discussion' of airline policies in the cockpit and flew past their destination, while serious, was in all likelihood not inherently dangerous. Think 'water-cooler' talk about your own employer.

While it never should have happened, it did and there are disciplinary actions the airline can take toward these already underpaid employees to make their employment even less secure.

For every Sully Sullenberger, there are dozens or hundreds of airplane drivers just trying to support families the best way they can.

Jim Ricks
 

dougp26364

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I've passed an exit before while having a discussion in the car but, I've never passed an exit because I fell asleep while driving a car. Somehow, I don't believe the discussion story. Two seperate ATC's attempted to raise the pilots but were unable to do so. It took a flight attendant on the intercom to get them to wake up from their nap time.
 

DebBrown

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Well, that's a bit scary. I find it odd that they were out of touch with air traffic control during this time. That shouldn't even be possible. If there was an emergency situation that they needed to know about, how could they be contacted?? It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation.

Deb
 

KarenLK

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So didn't the cabin crew talk to them on the in-plane phone?? Wouldn't passengers have begun to wonder why they were not arriving at their destination at the appointed time without a message from the crew to explain the delay?? Just wondering.
 

Mosca

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While looking for more information on this, I wound up lurking on a pilots' forum. Most pilots who commented on the incident itself said that it was impossible that they were "having a heated discussion", and that they probably fell asleep. But 98% of the discussion was trivial, or sniping between legacy (national/international) and regional pilots, rather than them realizing that to us, they're all "pilots".

There was also some discussion about situational awareness, and crew resource management, and how some captains instill a culture of not questioning their decisions... and how that might have played into the attendants' not doing anything when they were clearly not descending into their destination. I followed a link to a training manual that stresses the need for crew members to speak up and question, and sometimes act when they know things are amiss, citing reasons for why this doesn't happen often enough and the consequences.

pilots forum topic

Flight Discipline (crew resource management manual)
 

Passepartout

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.... Most pilots who commented on the incident itself said that it was impossible that they were "having a heated discussion", and that they probably fell asleep.

I understand now that NWA and the FAA will be looking at the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorders for clues about what was happening on this flight deck. This will shed some light on the situation. Both pilots have been suspended.

Jim Ricks
 

kapish

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Check out this story from someone on that flight!
"For more than an hour, the control tower at MSP was unable to reach the crew, [..]. The military had four fighter jets at two bases ready to scramble before the MSP air traffic controller reestablished communications with the crew at 8:14 p.m."
 

Tia

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After reading the link provided by the original poster the heated discussion occured after they were woke up by the crew member on the intercom... no doubt in my mind. :eek:

The incident is another sign of corporate cut backs and cutting corners I'd guess. When investigation details comeout will most people care or will they have forgotten? People who were on the airplane are who will remember to check details.
 
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pgnewarkboy

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I agree this is a scary story. This will only happen again unless they install the APZ - or airlines pilot zapper. It has not yet been invented but in our zeal to eliminate all possibility of scary things happening it should be easy to invent. Just attach some electrodes into the pilots brains. If they fall asleep or show brain activitiy indicating talking, daydreaming, or fantasizing they would automatically be zapped by a computer with an electronic shock strong enough to get their attention. Now that would make me feel much better about flying.
 

Talent312

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The "heated discussion" was about who forgot to set the alarm clock. :)
Perhaps what they needed was one of those "Wakeup Machines" which will vibrate your bed, remove the sheets, make coffee, play music, even adjust the temperature in the room for optimal wake up experiences.
http://hackaday.com/2009/08/18/the-wake-up-machine/
 

DaveNV

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Are we looking at a new merger? "GO NWA: The sleepy way to fly!" :eek:

Dave
 

Patri

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Maybe if the flight attendants could stay in the cockpit, they wouldn't fall asleep.
 

isisdave

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I think AP is "approach point", more correctly IAP for initial approach point, the location at which you'd expect to depart a cruise altitude and heading to begin whatever kind of descent and approach that Approach Control has assigned you.

What I want to know is this: what was the autopilot set to? doesn't it have a geographical fix, in which case you might expect it to say "Next exit ... ooh, make a legal u-turn ahead" like the one in my car does. Or is it just "heading 065, altitude FL370, speed 450, until something happens"?

And clearly, no one was listening to the radio for over an hour. This is WAY beyond a lapse, this was complete dereliction of duty, and they both should lose their licenses permanently.
 

Pat H

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ATC was unable to raise contact for over an hour. The voice recorders only record 30 minutes. When contact was restored, the pilots were required to perform certain manuevers to prove that the plane was not being hijacked. Both pilots are in their 50's so they are not rookies.

I don't know about the majors but the employees of the commuter airlines that operate routes for the big airlines only get paid from the time the aircraft door is closed until it is opened again. They spend a lot of hours in their "office" for which they are not being paid.
 

tompalm

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What I want to know is this: what was the autopilot set to? doesn't it have a geographical fix, in which case you might expect it to say "Next exit ... ooh, make a legal u-turn ahead" like the one in my car does. Or is it just "heading 065, altitude FL370, speed 450, until something happens"?

And clearly, no one was listening to the radio for over an hour. This is WAY beyond a lapse, this was complete dereliction of duty, and they both should lose their licenses permanently.

AP can be the approach point, or top of descent, but was meant to be airport. It is pretty close to the same thing.

I am only familar with Boeing aircraft and you are right when the autopilot is set up to follow the GPS track or route, a light will go off on the forward panel to reset the mode control panel altitude so that the autopilot can start the descent. If you fly pass the top of descent, the airplane remains level and continues on the same track or heading. This had to be what happened because during preflight you program the computer to take you to the destination and once you fly past that, the computer will fly straight and level until you make a change to the autopilot or computer that is directing the autopilot.

Pilots can sometimes fly out of an range or radio contact before getting a new frequency. When this happens, you sometimes can hear other pilots talking because they are at high altitude, but you cannot hear Denver Center. If you keep flying for a long time on the old frequency, you will not be able to hear other pilots and everything is very quiet. It would be negligence to not check in with center when you fly out of their sector, but if all is quiet and nobody is thinking about how quiet the radios are, that is more likely, sleeping at the yoke.

The other possibility is that the pilots were on the wrong frequency, or using the speaker instead of headset and had the volume turned down to low and couldn't hear anyone calling them. One pilot flys while the other talks. But, both are suppose to listen and confirm all calls from ATC.

When pilots start approaching destination, they are suppose to get the weather, gate assignment and make special request for passengers, ie.. three wheel chairs, one minor child needs assistance, etc... It is a very busy time of the flight. To miss getting ready for the arrival, checking the weather, and everything else that is needed is gross. The best lawyers at ALPA will not be able to save these guys. They were with one of the best airlines in the world. Delta just bought NW and they will miss working for Delta.
 
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isisdave

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I guess they need a new autopilot option: fly 100-mile circle around end point. Or sound the siren.

I wonder how much fuel they had left at landing.
 

tompalm

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I wonder how much fuel they had left at landing.

That is a good question. Most airlines use about one hour of extra fuel on landing if the weather is good. If they need an alternate, than they use fuel to alternate, icing, and one extra hour. In this case, they might have been very close to empty, or had low fuel lights on during landing.
 

DaveNV

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:) :) :)

Good one,


Are you old enough to remember the old Western Airlines and the bird on the tail wing..."the only way to fly"?


Oh yeah, Rick. I'm definitely old enough for that. And I also remember the champagne-sipping bird who said it. :)

Although I now think I should change the slogan. It should read, "GO NWA -- Our flights will put you to sleep!" :zzz:

Dave
 
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