Get an Estoppel Letter!

harveyhaddixfan · Aug 23, 2015

This is a similar situation to what I'm in right now with a purchase from Sum Day at Beachwoods. The estoppel said it was in points but Sum Day says it wasn't. I got confirmation from the resort that is truly is in points. So I had to write a letter to the previous owner to get the MTA filled out because Sum Day failed to do so and verify the info on the estoppel. Now I'm just waiting on RCI to get the transfer completed. Problem is the home week window has passed so I'll have to pay for an exchange into Beachwoods if I want to stay there this year.

tschwa2 · Aug 23, 2015

The good news is Beechwoods has a decent amount of points inventory that make it out to even the 10 month mark for summer. If you can get it transferred in the next month and then make a reservation at least at the 11 month + 1day mark the exchange fee is only $50. If you get it transferred after 11 months then it is the full point exchange fee if you are looking for summer or you could just wait until the 12month-11 month home resort time and book it in conjunction with you home week reserved at 13-12 months and have 2 weeks- with the single $50 exchange fee.

If you can get the points transferred you sometimes end up with the previous owners leftover points as well.

Bigrob · Aug 23, 2015

My perspective on estoppels is somewhat jaded and definitely colored by a recent experience.

My title company asked for, and received, an estoppel for a contract I was buying, and did not note any issues. Working from the belief that Wyndham would not transfer anything that had a balance on it, they went forward and processed the deed. Once it was in my name, I found out - long after the fact, since there is nowhere to see it online - that the contract transferred with over $2300 of back maintenance fees, over $400 of collections fees, and various late fees and billing fees totaling over $2800.

Needless to say the title company is working hard to get the seller to get this straightened out.

So what happened? The assumption that Wyndham won't transfer a contract that has outstanding maintenance fees due on it is WRONG. In fact, they will transfer it, even if it's coming from a flagged or suspended account, and they will do so regardless of what is in a third party purchase agreement. The onus is on the BUYER and their title/closing company to ensure that there is no balance or back maintenance fees due.

One might think I'm advocating for the estoppel, and to an extent I am, but the estoppel is just a snapshot in time. If the fees are current as of July, that does not provide any guarantee that if the contract actually transfers in November, that any of those fees will have been paid in the interim, regardless of what your purchase agreement may state.

This is one of the reasons I don't like ebay sellers that insist on using their own captive closing company (and most of them do). In that situation, the closing company is representing the seller...

DaveNV · Aug 24, 2015

I can't speak to the validity of the estoppel information, as I've never dealt with anything that was points-based. I have only bought and sold what I understood were weeks-based ownerships.

But I do recall that when I bought a week one time, the estoppel and deed said nothing about points, (it was a floating week), but RCI told me the week had been converted to points in their system. They said the new owner (me) would not get the points-based ownership because the underlying week reverted back to weeks-based on resale. I was fine with that because I wasn't buying a points-based week. They said at the time if I wanted it to be points, I'd have to convert it again.

It's been long enough that I don't remember all the specifics. I know it was at Kauai Beach Villas, which is Wyndham managed, but independently owned.

It's possible something similar is happening with your situation. The underlying week may be a fixed week, but if it was converted to points, the use week could have been scheduled out somehow by the previous owner. Since the underlying week wasn't reserved, you had no reservation to check into. ? I'm guessing here.

I think I'd let RCI sort it out, and then lock things in stone when you do. I'm sorry you're having the problem, and I'll be curious to hear the outcome.

Good luck!
Dave

WinniWoman · Aug 24, 2015

Egret1986 said:
I have again emailed the Regional Manager that oversees this resort at SPM. He assured me that he would follow up with me after he spoke to his RCI Rep. I finally have an RCI Manager working with me on my RCI Points account and she is willing to assist me on determining where the problem lies with the week 32 issue. I'll probably never see that $1805 back. So, my focus is ensuring my 2016 week. I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere fast with this.

I'm just wondering how I would protect myself in the future to keep something like this from happening again. If the Estoppel doesn't indicate that the ownership is in a Points program and the owner or seller doesn't indicate that it's in a Points program; what should one do when purchasing?

I still believe it should have been indicated on the Estoppel, but the SPM Regional guy says "no."

To prevent this from happening again, you really need to be in touch with the resort and the managing company/resort sales company throughout the entire closing process-question everything. Then you can catch things and ask questions as the process moves along. In short- you have to be a pain in the "you know what". Assume whatever can go wrong will go wrong so you will leave no stone unturned. The estoppel might not say it's a points program, but you still get on the phone and verify- "is this a fixed week or a points week?", etc. Be paranoid! After the closing, call the resort- I have guests coming- is everything all set?

When I closed on mine (I didn't buy on EBAY, though)- during the whole process I was emailing and calling the transfer company, the resort mgmt. company, the resort sales company that was handling the transfer. After the closing I verified I was in the mgmt. company's system so I could go on-line to see my account and also sign up with VRI*ety to do exchanges. I called the resort to make sure my unit was reserved for this year, even though I could see it on-line. Sometimes I got wrong info. or could not get a hold of the right person. I still persevered! You have to cover ALL bases!

By luck, after joining the OWNERS (of the resort) Facebook page (another good idea) I learned that even fixed week owners at the resort have to fill out a usage form every year to indicate whether or not they are using their week, renting it out or want the resort to rent it out for them, exchanging it with RCI, II or VRI*ety, sending a guest, using it as points (if you own points), etc. I would have never known about it if I didn't join that Facebook page.

WinniWoman · Aug 24, 2015

tschwa2 said:
I gave my opinion. In general info on Estoppel about RCI points (or not points) for points resort is not reliable. To be sure one way or the other, you need to get a print screen of the current RCI account with the week in question shown in one type of account or the other before buying. Without that you need to have guaranteed usage in the type (points or week) specified in the contract.

Yes- exactly. Even if you can't get an RCI screen shot- I think key is contacting whoever manages the accounts for the resort they can look it up on their end and be able to verify if it is points or weeks.

I don't know a heck of a lot, but have learned so much from TUGGERS in the process myself.

Sugarcubesea · Aug 24, 2015

skimble said:
I did not get an estopel letter when I made my latest purchase. I was supposed to get 2014 RCI Points and 2015 points. Fees were current.
Luckily, the fees were current; I did not get the points. The management company did not honor the transfer of points.
I don't know if I would have found this out in an estopel.

(I did not get totally screwed... I own a 2 bd unit in a prime location, and I booked prime for 2015. If I rent it for anywhere near the going rate, I will have made back all my investment.)

I'm curious though.... the points that I would have gotten in this deal were pretty sweet on the point/fee ratio. About how much would it be for me to convert this week back to points? And, do I need to sit through a presentation to do so?

Dang, I would have never guessed that a management company could choose not to honor the transfer of points. How could one protect themselves from something like this going forward?

flexible · Aug 24, 2015

icydog said:
What a funny story. Had it been someone else he may have had to worry, but you're way too honest to claim someone's home.

As an aside, I had an estoppel that was wrong. It said I had a floating week when in actuality it was a fixed week. Even doing my due diligence I was a loser on that week. It, too, was an adoption lol!

If Denise didn't insist on the estoppel letter and a liability lawsuit on the address of her new home regardless of whether she knew she owned it or not could have caused Denise to file bankruptcy. If the seller doesn't know the difference between the title to his timeshare, residence or car, do you think he can remember to pay homeowner's insurance?

If anyone got injured on that property, wouldn't the injured parties lawyer sue Denise?

tschwa2 · Aug 24, 2015

Sugarcubesea said:
Dang, I would have never guessed that a management company could choose not to honor the transfer of points. How could one protect themselves from something like this going forward?

It wasn't an arbitrary decision by the management company. Those were Holiday Inn Points (at a non mandatory resort) which revert back to deeded week upon resale.

Egret1986 · Aug 24, 2015

I know I have some personal blame for not being as diligent in doing due diligence.

It was a very expensive lesson learned.

BMWguynw said:
It's possible something similar is happening with your situation. The underlying week may be a fixed week, but if it was converted to points, the use week could have been scheduled out somehow by the previous owner. Since the underlying week wasn't reserved, you had no reservation to check into. ? I'm guessing here.

I think I'd let RCI sort it out, and then lock things in stone when you do. I'm sorry you're having the problem, and I'll be curious to hear the outcome.

Good luck!
Dave

I received an email today from the Reg. Mgr. of SPM Resorts. He has talked to his RCI Rep and canceled the RCI Points contract and secured my 2016 week. He suggests that I go back to the Seller (Broker) and straighten out the 2015 week debacle with him.

mpumilia said:
To prevent this from happening again, you really need to be in touch with the resort and the managing company/resort sales company throughout the entire closing process-question everything. Then you can catch things and ask questions as the process moves along. In short- you have to be a pain in the "you know what". Assume whatever can go wrong will go wrong so you will leave no stone unturned. The estoppel might not say it's a points program, but you still get on the phone and verify- "is this a fixed week or a points week?", etc. Be paranoid! After the closing, call the resort- I have guests coming- is everything all set?

When I closed on mine (I didn't buy on EBAY, though)- during the whole process I was emailing and calling the transfer company, the resort mgmt. company, the resort sales company that was handling the transfer. After the closing I verified I was in the mgmt. company's system so I could go on-line to see my account and also sign up with VRI*ety to do exchanges. I called the resort to make sure my unit was reserved for this year, even though I could see it on-line. Sometimes I got wrong info. or could not get a hold of the right person. I still persevered! You have to cover ALL bases!

By luck, after joining the OWNERS (of the resort) Facebook page (another good idea) I learned that even fixed week owners at the resort have to fill out a usage form every year to indicate whether or not they are using their week, renting it out or want the resort to rent it out for them, exchanging it with RCI, II or VRI*ety, sending a guest, using it as points (if you own points), etc. I would have never known about it if I didn't join that Facebook page.

mpumilia said:
Yes- exactly. Even if you can't get an RCI screen shot- I think key is contacting whoever manages the accounts for the resort they can look it up on their end and be able to verify if it is points or weeks.

I don't know a heck of a lot, but have learned so much from TUGGERS in the process myself.

Yes, therein, part of the problem lies. I didn't initially get the estoppel to review when I purchased. I assumed everything was la-di-da. Sometimes familiarity breeds apathy. I have been an owner at this resort for 30+ years and never experienced anything like this.

I had an emergency trip out to Idaho and didn't follow-up prior to the check-in of my guests with the resort as I normally do. My shortcomings this time, combined with the discrepancy with the ownership that was sold, all came together, and I was the loser. I'm so thankful that the resort was able to accommodate my guests. My guests were very happy after they got settled in and appreciated that I acted very quickly without hesitation to pay for the accommodations.

If I'm going to continue to do what I do, I need to get back to being a pain in the "you know what" as you state. I don't want this to happen again. It was very unnerving on check-in day for myself and for my guests. :bawl:

Thanks, everyone, for responding to my dilemma in Denise's thread. Sorry for the hijack, Denise. It just goes to show anything can happen with a timeshare purchase and one must not get lazy during the process or else there can be repercussions. :doh:

DeniseM · Aug 24, 2015

I just thought of something - did you call reservations and get a guest confirmation for your guest?

skimble · Aug 27, 2015

tschwa2 said:
I think you bought at HICV Desert Club (at one point they were summerbay but they were purchased by Holiday Inn Club Vacations). Those weren't RCI points they were HICV points that transfer to RCI at a 2:1 ratio. 2 HICV points equal 1 RCI point. All HICV enrolled weeks revert back to fixed weeks upon resale with the exception of 3. You will have to do a seach to find out which. Off the top of my head I think Vermont, SouthBeach, and Gatlinburg. They have to be in a separate RCI account paid through club dues. I believe the going rate to enroll in HICV is around $4000 or you can buy $10,000 or so in new points and then they will enroll your current week either for a reduced rate or for free.

Live and learn. I wish I had done a little more homework prior to purchasing. I don know the history of Summerbay, and I feel comfortable knowing it's been entirely refurbished within the last 4 years, and fees should stay low.
The good news is... I paid $950 out the door. I booked a great week this year, and I'll be happy to use all or part of it.

Get an Estoppel Letter!

harveyhaddixfan

tschwa2

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Bigrob

DaveNV

TUG Review Crew: Expert

WinniWoman

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

WinniWoman

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Sugarcubesea

TUG Review Crew

flexible

tschwa2

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Egret1986

TUG Review Crew: Expert

DeniseM

skimble