WKORV-N&S Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]

emuyshondt said:

Certainly the behavior of the county government is not right. Retroactive taxes and unreasonable deadlines should be illegal. However, many of the underlying issues are real, and need to somehow get addressed.

Amplifying that TS owners aren't going to spend money is just reinforcing what locals already believe. Saying a few hundred dollars of taxes aren't going to get spent on other things is not very believable. Addressing what the main gripes of the locals are will go a longer way towards settling the attitude they have against TS owners. The issues are not 100% one-sided. Both sides need to figure out a better way.

Click to expand...

What do you believe are the real underlying issues that need to be addressed? To me the only real issue here is the retroactive nature of the tax bill.

We spend quite a lot of money every year in Maui, all dinners, most lunches and a fair amount of golf. Also a yearly sail to Lanai or snorkel cruise.
We can certainly afford these expenditures, but they ARE discretionary. I think it is important for the County Council and businesses to understand that the approach of these retroactive taxes is wrong and may have consequences.

I don't know how many timeshare owners trips a year are taken to our resorts, but if each of us were to choose to spend $500 less in local businesses, it would have to mean a substantial hit to the economy. Obviously it is up to each individual how they choose to address this very unfair action by the county.

I just responded to the WKORV homeowners association requesting a copy of the notice that it received from Maui County. I looked online for a couple hours last night and other than discussions of timeshare rates in general, I could not find any reference to the recent action about retroactive 2006-08 property tax assessments.

It might be worthwhile for other owners to request the letter sent from Maui County. I'd like to see what they say in order to respond appropriately. That the notice comes immediately after the turnover to VSE/Interval, I am very curious.

Very good idea


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rsauer3473 said:

I just responded to the WKORV homeowners association requesting a copy of the notice that it received from Maui County. I looked online for a couple hours last night and other than discussions of timeshare rates in general, I could not find any reference to the recent action about retroactive 2006-08 property tax assessments.

It might be worthwhile for other owners to request the letter sent from Maui County. I'd like to see what they say in order to respond appropriately. That the notice comes immediately after the turnover to VSE/Interval, I am very curious.

Click to expand...

Ditto. Good idea maybe we should all each individually appeal increase given we are deeded owners.

http://www.mauicounty.gov/DocumentCenter/View/103256

This site has a lot of interesting info. Curious as to the amount in appeal from timeshare. Page 12

Just FYI

2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates
The 2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates have been released. There was a slight drop in rates for all the classifications from the previous year.

These real property tax rates are shown per $1000 of net taxable assessed valuation. The rates shown below are effective July 1, 2015, thru June 30, 2016.

The Residential Tax Rate is $5.40

The Apartment Tax Rate is $6.00

The Commercial Tax Rate is $6.60

The Industrial Tax Rate is $6.85

The Agricultural Tax Rate is $5.75

The Conservation Tax Rate is $5.90

The Hotel and Resort Tax Rate is $8.85

The Time Share Tax Rate is $14.55

The Homeowner Tax Rate is $2.75

This points out the discrepancy of tax liability

alohakevin said:

Just FYI

2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates
The 2015 – 2016 Maui Property Tax Rates have been released. There was a slight drop in rates for all the classifications from the previous year.

These real property tax rates are shown per $1000 of net taxable assessed valuation. The rates shown below are effective July 1, 2015, thru June 30, 2016.

The Residential Tax Rate is $5.40

The Apartment Tax Rate is $6.00

The Commercial Tax Rate is $6.60

The Industrial Tax Rate is $6.85

The Agricultural Tax Rate is $5.75

The Conservation Tax Rate is $5.90

The Hotel and Resort Tax Rate is $8.85

The Time Share Tax Rate is $14.55

The Homeowner Tax Rate is $2.75

This points out the discrepancy of tax liability

Click to expand...

Those are the 2015 rates. 2016 rates are a tad lower. 2.9% reduction ($2.70) for homeowners and 1.6% ($14.31) for timeshare owners.

Nonetheless, suffice it to say that timeshare owners pay 800% more than homeowners. A resident who lives in a home valued at $500,000 will only pay $810 per year after their $200,000 homestead exemption. A similarly valued timeshare will pay $7100.

That explains the love/hate relationship of Hawaiians with tourists. They hate that we clog the roads and drive up prices of homes, all while enjoying the nice subsidy we provide them via usurious taxes.

Ah, the price we pay for paradise!

LisaRex said:

That explains the love/hate relationship of Hawaiians with tourists. They hate that we clog the roads and drive up prices of homes, all while enjoying the nice subsidy we provide them via usurious taxes.

Click to expand...

This argument has never made sense to me. If one timeshare and one home can be occupied by a similar number of people, then why would Maui think that timeshares "clog the roads"? Logically, they must think that visitors do nothing but drive all day with occasional stops at grocery stores (since we don't eat out) and public parks (since we don't spend money on tourist activities). Ah, of course...logic has nothing to do with it...

^^^ this ^^^

Maui's economy is tourist driven - whose fault is that?
There is plenty of blame to pass around.

btw - this is about changing the method of valuation (retroactively) and not the tax rate. Although the tax rate is also unfair.

Why is this taken out on TS vacationers? We are the ones that have made an annual commitment to their economy (tourism), and have the motive to maintain it's beauty within our control. And because of this, they can hold us hostage.

Looks like we need a call to action (?) - be proactive - email/FB posts - 'Like' others's FB posts so others can see... that is how Social Media works (old) Folks

hmmm... this is how the WSJ thread started...

While taxes are disproportionately high for timeshare owners, the bigger issue IMHO is the county having the ability to go almost 10 years in the past and re-asses taxes at will.

Also, not only do timeshare owners pay a property tax, they also pay a daily occupancy tax in Hawaii. I wonder what the real tax rate is when you factor that in?

triangulum33 said:

While taxes are disproportionately high for timeshare owners, the bigger issue IMHO is the county having the ability to go almost 10 years in the past and re-asses taxes at will.

Click to expand...

This can't be Federally legal. If so how and why? You can't just go back at will, recalculate taxes and assess higher. Can't be legal. as previously discussed it's like going back to a former renter and asking for money. Once it's assessed it has to be done. Clearly a situation of retaliation here. What does the State of Hawaii say about this?

This comes down to a re-assessment for the property valuation of WKORV/N (per HOA email) from 2006-2008.

When the taxes were originally assessed, the units were valued on a land plus construction cost basis. The County is retroactively assessing the units using a market value methodology.

Is this Legal?
Is this how WKORV/N is currently valuation?
Did other TSs get a similar re-assessment?

DavidnRobin said:

...
Did other TSs get a similar re-assessment?

Click to expand...

This is what I want to know. I have to imagine all timeshares got a similar surprise or did other timeshares plan differently? Did the powers that be (whoever that is) do something negligent in their tax planning for WKORV?

Maui News Letter to the Editor

Surprisingly, the Maui News published my Letter to the Editor today.
I would sugggest that others send their thoughts to the Maui News as well. (250 word limit).

Time-share owners easy pickings for council
June 30, 2016
The Maui News

I recently received notification from the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Vacation Owners Association that I will be receiving a bill for a special assessment. This is to pay for a retroactive increased real property tax on my time share for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008!

Taxes for these years had been paid in full in the respective tax years. The County of Maui retroactively changed their assessment methodology and sent my association a bill for $6.9 million! The bill was issued two weeks ago and required payment June 24!

It must seem to Maui County council members that time-share owners are easy pickings for additional tax revenues. What, after all, can we do to protest? We can't vote against the council members or come to council meetings to demand fair treatment. I am sure we are viewed as easy prey just to be exploited.

I have been bringing my family to Maui annually since 1981. We have always loved Maui, its natural beauty and warm people.

So what can I do? We have always eaten every dinner and some lunches in local restaurants. Our favorites have included: Mama's, Paia Fish Market, Da Kitchen, Aloha Mixed Plate, Pacific O, Merriman's, Duke's and Hula Grill.

This September we will not eat in any restaurants. We will enjoy our home-cooked meals beachfront at our time share. And no golf at Kapalua or Wailea. That will save me well over $1,500, which will pay my special assessment several times. How shortsighted of the council.

Charles Roby

Santa Ana, Calif

larryallen said:

This is what I want to know. I have to imagine all timeshares got a similar surprise or did other timeshares plan differently? Did the powers that be (whoever that is) do something negligent in their tax planning for WKORV?

Click to expand...

I've wondered if someone in Maui suddenly discovered that they never switched over from cost+ to the market value methodology when construction was completed? Long shot, I know, but this is one weird situation. I cannot believe that there isn't a statute of limitations in play here.

We own at another resort on Maui and our taxes seem high even based on a market value (easier to assess on our development as we have some non-timeshare units that you see on the mls occasionally), but our development is a 30 year old property across the street from the ocean so not comparable to the Westin properties.

Great letter, and it's something we already chose to do (less restaurants, less activities), based on our rather ridiculous increases of fees on our oceanfront units on Maui. Unfair taxation on timeshares and no voice or vote on Maui for us.

labonnevie said:

Surprisingly, the Maui News published my Letter to the Editor today.
I would sugggest that others send their toughts to the Maui News as well. (250 word limit).

Time-share owners easy pickings for council
June 30, 2016
The Maui News

I recently received notification from the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Vacation Owners Association that I will be receiving a bill for a special assessment. This is to pay for a retroactive increased real property tax on my time share for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008!

Taxes for these years had been paid in full in the respective tax years. The County of Maui retroactively changed their assessment methodology and sent my association a bill for $6.9 million! The bill was issued two weeks ago and required payment June 24!

It must seem to Maui County council members that time-share owners are easy pickings for additional tax revenues. What, after all, can we do to protest? We can't vote against the council members or come to council meetings to demand fair treatment. I am sure we are viewed as easy prey just to be exploited.

I have been bringing my family to Maui annually since 1981. We have always loved Maui, its natural beauty and warm people.

So what can I do? We have always eaten every dinner and some lunches in local restaurants. Our favorites have included: Mama's, Paia Fish Market, Da Kitchen, Aloha Mixed Plate, Pacific O, Merriman's, Duke's and Hula Grill.

This September we will not eat in any restaurants. We will enjoy our home-cooked meals beachfront at our time share. And no golf at Kapalua or Wailea. That will save me well over $1,500, which will pay my special assessment several times. How shortsighted of the council.

Charles Roby

Santa Ana, Calif

Click to expand...

labonnevie, I logged on to check out your letter and, more importantly, to see if there were any responses from which to gauge the locals' reactions, if any. But I couldn't read it unless I ponied up $10 for 24 hour access or $15/month for an annual access.

I'm pretty sure I can access the NYTimes for less than that!

Good luck with your fight.

Thanks lakonnevie - glad to see someone being proactive.

I also wonder that WKORV/N Owners are getting screwed when using Market Value approach when VSE (SVO) have HUGE on-paper costs for the villas. For example, WKORV OFD has an on-paper price of $125,000 (!) when resale value is ~$40,000 (same with other villa types).

DavidnRobin said:

I also wonder that WKORV/N Owners are getting screwed when using Market Value approach when VSE (SVO) have HUGE on-paper costs for the villas. For example, WKORV OFD has an on-paper price of $125,000 (!) when resale value is ~$40,000 (same with other villa types).

Click to expand...

I assume that Market Value means what a similarly sized ocean front condo would sell for, which would be in the $2M+ range for an OFD unit. At $125,000 x 52, that'd be $6,500,000, or $94,000 per year in property taxes, equaling $1800 per owner. Of course, that would be averaged with the IV and OV condos which would probably sell for $300,000-$1.5M.

P.S. And don't be giving them any ideas!

LisaRex said:

I assume that Market Value means what a similarly sized ocean front condo would sell for, which would be in the $2M+ range for an OFD unit. At $125,000 x 52, that'd be $6,500,000, or $94,000 per year in property taxes, equaling $1800 per owner. Of course, that would be averaged with the IV and OV condos which would probably sell for $300,000-$1.5M.

P.S. And don't be giving them any ideas!

Click to expand...

My point was if the Market Valuation was based on what SVO sold these for, or their on-paper price (which Sales uses to show buyers how much the value has increased) that has increased, then the Market Value would be greater than actual FMV.

For properties - when the home value decreases, I can petition to have my valuation decreased and that in turn decreases my property tax.

An argument could be made that the market value could be less if FMV is used for these VOIs.

DavidnRobin said:

My point was if the Market Valuation was based on what SVO sold these for, or their on-paper price (which Sales uses to show buyers how much the value has increased) that has increased, then the Market Value would be greater than actual FMV.

For properties - when the home value decreases, I can petition to have my valuation decreased and that in turn decreases my property tax.

An argument could be made that the market value could be less if FMV is used for these VOIs.

Click to expand...

Even though these are technically deeded properties, it doesn't appear that Starwood/VSE is reporting sales transfers to Maui County because all the sales dates are the same.

Also, remember that Maui County has also deemed that all properties are to be valued at their "highest and best" use. That IMO means that the original developer price would trump any resale prices anyway. (They'll get you coming and going.)

In any event, it appears that they are valuing the properties more in the line of what I'd expect (e.g. compared to a similarly sized condo), except I think that their appraisals are high for the IV units. Here's a few sample tax records which show what they are assessing, and charging, for WKORV:

Arguably the crappiest unit in the entire campus, Unit 4106-08 (bldg 4, 1st floor, dreaded parking lot view), is valued at $898,900 (91,500 for the land + $806,600 for the condo) and the annual property taxes are $12,400.

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030216

Unit 3409-11 (bldg 3, 4th floor, OV) is valued at $1,079,200 ($91,500 for the land + $987,000 for the building), and the taxes are $15,000, before the 10% penalty, which I assume will be deducted since the HOA paid the tax a few days ago.

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030175&show_history=1&

The best unit in the entire campus, Unit 2630-31 (Building 2, 6th floor, OF center) is valued at $1.78M, with taxes at $24,600.
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140030103

Westin North has similar values, with the best unit (Building 8, 6th floor, unit 06-08) in the place being valued at $1.78M with taxes at $23,743

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140040271

Arguably the crappiest unit is valued at $869,900 with taxes at $10,325.

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_display.php?KEY=440140040079

From looking at the valuations, it looks like even if this SA passes legal muster, they significantly increased valuations between 2008 and 2009, so this wouldn't impact you any more than it already does.

And looking at Marriott valuation (100 Nohea Kai), in the newer wing, a 2 bdrm OV is valued at just over $1M with a property tax of $14,389. A 2 bdrm IV is valued at $862,000 with a property tax of $12,000. A 3 bdrm OF unit is valued at over $2M with a property tax of $29,000.

So pretty much in line with WKORV. However, there is no evidence yet that they are trying to after them for 2006-2008. If this is the case, then that would be really stupid on their part because it's very evident that their actions are, indeed, retaliatory.

I'm going to guess that they're doing this to push their weight around and that they will back off before making a huge mistake.

LisaRex said:

labonnevie, I logged on to check out your letter and, more importantly, to see if there were any responses from which to gauge the locals' reactions, if any. But I couldn't read it unless I ponied up $10 for 24 hour access or $15/month for an annual access.

I'm pretty sure I can access the NYTimes for less than that!

Good luck with your fight.

Click to expand...

I was able to see the whole thing by searching Google with:

maui news time-share owners easy pickings for council

labonnevie said:

I was able to see the whole thing by searching Google with:

maui news time-share owners easy pickings for council

Click to expand...

Thanks so much. That worked. I also found a very interesting article, which confirms my theory that timeshare valuations are based on what a similarly sized condo would sell for, and not sales:

http://www.mauinews.com/page/conten...ers--seek-lower-property-tax-rate.html?nav=10 or Google "Maui News Time-share owners seek lower property tax rate."

"When asked recently to comment on property tax rates as well as the number of appeals for time shares and other categories, council Chairman Mike White said in an email: "I believe hotels, resorts and time shares pay a fair share of taxes. Although I understand there are hundreds of hotel and resort tax appeals, 99 percent of them are condos, most likely from strong sales driving up values.

"Time shares have voiced concerns with their tax rates, but their valuations are based on comparable condos and not based on the sales price of their units. This makes their taxable valuation less than it would otherwise be," White said."

The article explains that WKORV/N Associations filed suit against the Council of Maui for violating sunshine laws back in 2013. "The suit was filed by Ocean Resort Villas and Ocean Resort Villas North vacation owners associations associations and time-share owners from the associations' Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas and Villas North complexes." Their representative is Grant Gillham.

So, it appears that this is Maui Council's way of retaliating for the lawsuit and possibly retaliation against the building of Nanea, which the County attempted to quash via withdrawing their building permit.

I don't know why I'm surprised that Council is acting so immaturely by singling WKORV/N out for its reassessment. I also wonder how much owners are paying for Grant Gillham to represent them, because it appears that he may be doing more damage than good. Innocent owners are being sucked into a fight that they are mere pawns in. And this tactic has done nothing to lower the usurious tax rates that timeshare owners uniquely face.

Here is another interesting article from 2013:

http://www.thetimeshareauthority.com/2013/08/23/is-this-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-maui-timeshare/

"Voicing concerns that timeshares contribute less to the economy than do hotels, the Maui County Council Members “took up a bill that would prohibit future timeshares on Maui.”

Council member Riki Hokama, a non-voting member of the Planning Committee, said, “We need hotel rooms, not timeshare units,” as she introduced the bill and urged the committee to support it. Hokama added that hotels provide more opportunities for employment to the general workforce."

...And it appears we have the Marriott to blame:

"One council member, Mike White, who is also the current General Manager of Kaanapali Beach Hotel, explained his opposition to more Maui timeshares by citing a Marriott hotel that transitioned to vacation ownership. White said, “As an example, there were jobs lost from banquet staff, the luau was eliminated, retail services were eliminated and the convention business was hurt.”