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WKORV-N&S Emergency Assessment [Retroactive Taxes]

DeniseM

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I'm very well aware what Starpoints are. Last time I checked sales is still authorized to use them as a sales tool. We still have an agreement between Starwood & Vistana.
I'm just saying it does hurt to ask considering it was a recent sale.

Because it's simply not logical to expect compensation, and the sales department has zero motivation to expend funds on a past sale.

AND - it sets a dangerous precedent.
 
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pacman777

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I would be looking into the reason why the owners association even filed a lawsuit in the first place for valuation assessment that goes back to 2000s. Those taxes were already paid for by the then current owners. Was the Association getting greedy trying to claim tax assessments were inflated back then. What was their plan for the $30m if they did win and collect. Would they have shared it with current owners? Doubt it. They probably would given it to the developer or Starwood since they were the majority owners back then since sales were getting started. Seems like the owners association kicked a hornet's nest filing the lawsuit and now all current owners are getting strung
 

DeniseM

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The WKORV-N/S boards are completely under the thumb of Starwood - now Vistana. So the real question is: Why did Starwood file the lawsuits?
 
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canesfan

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But here is the difference - recession is based upon the sale they conducted with the client. They are both parties to the event and in their control.



The tax being assessed is done by Maui and sales are not a party to the action. This is being done to the resort.



There is a carbon tax being implemented by our current government on fuel, so should I complain to my dealership about my vehicle because I have to pay a carbon tax I didn't anticipate and they didn't tell me about ? I've owned vehicles from them for years, so they should pay the tax for me ? Does that sound reasonable and logical that they're going to do something about it ?



The difference here would be if you were getting that carbon tax because you only bought it at that one dealership. Remember we are the only timeshare group paying these retro taxes.
 

Quadmaniac

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The difference here would be if you were getting that carbon tax because you only bought it at that one dealership. Remember we are the only timeshare group paying these retro taxes.

So it's the dealer's fault or under their control to change or prevent so they should compensate me for that ? Doesn't make sense. They're not the ones imposing it, the state is.

That's not any different from a luxury tax - if you own the item, and the impose a tax on it, you have no choice but to pay it. The dealer is not going to compensate you for something that was imposed on them. Just plain silliness. I could see them rolling their eyes when you leave.
 
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okwiater

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It's funny how vigorously DeniseM and Quadmaniac are arguing against mdt13 contacting Sales. Not sure what's in it for them.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue any longer because it's self-evident that following DeniseM's and Quadmaniac's advice has a 0% chance of achieving any relief, whereas following my advice has an admittedly small, but non-zero chance. It's up to mdt13 whether or not to give it the ol' college try.
 

DeniseM

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It's funny how vigorously DeniseM and Quadmaniac are arguing against mdt13 contacting Sales. Not sure what's in it for them.

This is not my first rodeo with Starwood/Vistana.

Personally, I don't care whether the OP contacts them or not - but those of you who are encouraging him are using illogical arguments to support your position.

Look out for the windmill! ;)

***A more productive action would be to contact the local Maui officials with brief and logical communications expressing your displeasure with their actions. It may have no immediate impact, but I think it is important for Maui owners to stand up in large numbers to influence long-term public policies on Maui.

Hopefully, all of you have already done that.
 
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Quadmaniac

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It's funny how vigorously DeniseM and Quadmaniac are arguing against mdt13 contacting Sales. Not sure what's in it for them.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue any longer because it's self-evident that following DeniseM's and Quadmaniac's advice has a 0% chance of achieving any relief, whereas following my advice has an admittedly small, but non-zero chance. It's up to mdt13 whether or not to give it the ol' college try.

That's because your arguments and logic does not make sense. There is nothing in it for me but you and MDT13 are free to do whatever you want, there is no one standing in your way. I can tell you what the outcome will be, but do go and report back how much you accomplished. I think Denise is saying the same thing, your efforts are futile. Let's say they give you a free dinner out of it, is that going to make either of you feel better ? What can they give you which they would have to give to every owner at the resort ? What is the cost to them vs a benefit to them in return ? There is no guarantee you will buy anything further.

Totally barking up the wrong tree, but the both of you are free to waste your vacation all you want in the sales office. I recommend you set up a sit in at their office during your vacation to protest the unfair re-assessment and have everyone boycott the resort. Set up a sign and sit right in front of the sales office and tell everyone passing by how badly Westin handled this. That will teach Westin to allow Maui to re-assess the property tax :wall::wall::wall: :hysterical: Maybe they're refund you the money you paid to buy into the resort:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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YYJMSP

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The WKORV-N/S boards are completely under the thumb of Starwood - now Vistana. So the real question is: Why did Starwood file the lawsuits?



Wasn't this over the tax rate and classification, that timeshares should be taxed and valued like condos?
 

DeniseM

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That was in response to the post below - I was just saying that the lawsuit would be something that Starwood cooked up - not the owners association - it's just a Starwood puppet.
I would be looking into the reason why the owners association even filed a lawsuit in the first place for valuation assessment that goes back to 2000s. Those taxes were already paid for by the then current owners. Was the Association getting greedy trying to claim tax assessments were inflated back then. What was their plan for the $30m if they did win and collect. Would they have shared it with current owners? Doubt it. They probably would given it to the developer or Starwood since they were the majority owners back then since sales were getting started. Seems like the owners association kicked a hornet's nest filing the lawsuit and now all current owners are getting strung
 
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triangulum33

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Are you buying a week? Then I doubt they will give you the time of day.

I'm not happy about this either, but the last thing I'm going to do is let this foul my vacation by spending any time chewing on a salesman for some SP.
 

work2travel

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When I went to my owner's update in July at WKORVN I was told that the money that was won was used to install new utility equipment on the property, which supposedly would reduce ongoing costs and help keep maintenance fees at current levels - seriously?!?!...
 

YYJMSP

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When I went to my owner's update in July at WKORVN I was told that the money that was won was used to install new utility equipment on the property, which supposedly would reduce ongoing costs and help keep maintenance fees at current levels - seriously?!?!...

I'm here this week, so I'll take one for the team and ask...
 

PamMo

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Reading through the link to the PDFs that Triangulum33 provided https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B56iNsUnXcjYMTdoYjItTmdEQ3M/view it shows the disdain officials have for WKORV/WKORVN disputing their tax assessments. Maui County portrays timeshare owners as big corporations (much easier to demonize than tens of thousands of families who work hard to save up for an expensive vacation in Hawaii) that should just shut up and pay the highest real property tax rates by far in the County. For example, does the Maui Council really think that if we pay our property taxes through our MF's, and our HOA pays the bill directly, we owners don't pay real property taxes?

"...Setting aside the fact that neither of the Vacation Owner's Association's respective members actually pay a real property tax assessed by the County..."
 

DeniseM

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It makes you wonder if this is an out-right lie, or complete ignorance.
 

labonnevie

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It makes you wonder if this is an out-right lie, or complete ignorance.
Been away for a week, sure is fun catching up on the Posts!;)
I received the same email others did, I am not a lawyer so it is hard for me to get much from it other than the County is really mad about our prior suit and will do anything to try to get even with us.
Hope once again that our lawyers are better than theirs!:cheer:
 

wallace37

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Not holding out much hope

Been away for a week, sure is fun catching up on the Posts!;)
I received the same email others did, I am not a lawyer so it is hard for me to get much from it other than the County is really mad about our prior suit and will do anything to try to get even with us.
Hope once again that our lawyers are better than theirs!:cheer:

Based on this prior ruling on a similar case, I'm not optimistic and hope that at least the legal fees are contingency based.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/hi-supreme-court/1411650.html
 

labonnevie

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Based on this prior ruling on a similar case, I'm not optimistic and hope that at least the legal fees are contingency based.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/hi-supreme-court/1411650.html

I would be very happy if we were taxed at the "Hotel Resort" rate cited in this case. That is exactly the point of the lawsuit; we are unjustifiably separated from Hotel Resort rates and singled out for significant additional taxes.
 

LisaRex

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I would be very happy if we were taxed at the "Hotel Resort" rate cited in this case. That is exactly the point of the lawsuit; we are unjustifiably separated from Hotel Resort rates and singled out for significant additional taxes.

You do realize that the Gardens of Maui LOST the lawsuit, right? Based on this ruling (good find, Wallace!), I agree that it's not looking promising that WKORV will win the argument to the SC of Hawaii that the County of Maui is violating Due Process by establishing a separate property tax classification for timeshares. (The linked lawsuit argued that the County violated Due Process by changing the Gardens of Maui (timeshare)'s property tax classification from Apartment to Hotel Resort.) Here is what the Court's ruled:

1. The County of Maui has the power to set the taxation rate and classification of Appellant's time share condominium units as “Hotel Resort.”   The Hawai‘i State Constitution grants the counties all powers relating to real property taxation, including the power to set differential rates․

(snip)

5. The County of Maui's differential tax rate structure is not an invalid exercise of its real property taxation powers.  [HRS] Chapter 246A clearly empowers the counties with the authority and ability to develop a real property tax rate structure․

However, based on the same ruling, I think that there's a reasonable argument to be made that the newly established timeshare classification (which didn't exist at the time of this lawsuit) RATES are capricious and arbitrary, and therefore a violation of due process. (Current timeshare rate is $14.31 while the the hotel and resort rate is 8.71). From the same ruling:

The County has considerable discretion in classifying taxation rates.   As long as this reclassification was not capricious nor arbitrary, the reclassification is valid․

As I've opined from the beginning, I do believe this SPECIFIC property tax retroactive assessment (that you are being billed for now via a SA) WILL ultimately be struck down, because it is clearly retaliatory and arbitrary (it only targeted 2 timeshares, and they publicly admitted t was because the Master Associations sued them), and because it was not a "modest" amount of money. I also believe that the County may even earn itself a "Bad Council!" slap on the wrist. From the same lawsuit:

2.  Retroactive tax provisions withstand due process challenges unless, in light of the “nature of the tax and the circumstances in which it was laid,” the law “is so harsh and oppressive as to transgress the constitutional limitation.”  Welch v. Henry, 305 U.S. 134, 147, 59 S.Ct. 121, 83 L.Ed. 87 (1938).

a) The County's purpose was neither illegitimate nor arbitrary.   There is no plausible contention that the County acted with an improper motive such as targeting Appellant for a particular reason.

However, no matter what, you'll still be on the hook for legal fees, and SOMEONE is funding this Regan fellow's PAC, so I'm afraid I'd say goodbye to this money.

Oh, and I wouldn't cheer too loudly because if this is an example of how Maui council conducts themselves, this won't be the end of it. Apparently they are getting quite a few nasty emails and letters from Owners, and I doubt they'll just sit there and be humiliated without repercussions. So don't be surprised if suddenly WKORV's liquor license is suspended.

Don't you just love "small town" politics?:banana:
 
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jackbak

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What would happen if all timeshare owners in Maui took a one year no show position. If the property owners did the minimum maintenance to maintain the properties and charged us accordingly our position would be pretty strong. No timeshare owners revenue to Maui for a year, just saying!
 

DeniseM

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What would happen if all timeshare owners in Maui took a one year no show position. If the property owners did the minimum maintenance to maintain the properties and charged us accordingly our position would be pretty strong. No timeshare owners revenue to Maui for a year, just saying!

This would never happen, but it would be interesting for the merchants and Maui powers-that-be to see the financial impact of a year without timeshare owners.
 

Maui_ed

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I'm here this week, so I'll take one for the team and ask...
YYJMSP - did you ever get an answer to this when you asked? Curious, more than anything, as to what the answer might have been.
 

YYJMSP

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YYJMSP - did you ever get an answer to this when you asked? Curious, more than anything, as to what the answer might have been.



Our sales guy was a bit out there, so I never really got to ask anything overly meaningful...
 

3d0g

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We got our 2nd notice on the "Emergency Assessment" today (contrary to ORV's claims, we never got a 1st).

Personally, I'm becoming less and less convinced ORV has the owner's best interests at heart. I think it's about time we press ORV to come to the bargaining table and settle these suits. Find a tax middle ground we and the county can live with.
 
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